The Pass

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.
The Burnaby Kid
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Re: The Pass

Postby The Burnaby Kid » November 4th, 2018, 4:55 pm

Ian Kendall wrote:That's the whole point. If you can use a pass correctly, then in the eyes of the spectator, nothing at all has happened; they replaced the card into the deck and that's it.

However, if you have to use bizarre covers for the pass, or do something _after_ the pass, then that illusion of 'nothing happening' is weakened (I explained my thoughts on this at the top of the thread).


Oh sure! Sorry if I misunderstood.

What I'm getting at is that sometimes it helps to have it seem like nothing happened (eg: using the pass in an ACR, Cavorting Aces, etc.) and sometimes it helps to have it seem like something happened (eg: using a shuffle in a pick-a-card trick or a CAAN effect).
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Ian Kendall
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Re: The Pass

Postby Ian Kendall » November 4th, 2018, 5:21 pm

I'm struggling to think of a time when it's beneficial during a card control for the spectators to think that something had happened (as opposed to thinking that nothing had happened).

The strangest thing about this is that the pass is not that difficult to do properly, given correct instruction and a bit of thought.

The Burnaby Kid
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Re: The Pass

Postby The Burnaby Kid » November 4th, 2018, 5:47 pm

Ian Kendall wrote:I'm struggling to think of a time when it's beneficial during a card control for the spectators to think that something had happened (as opposed to thinking that nothing had happened).


I'm thinking along the lines of open controls such as shuffles or cuts.
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Ian Kendall
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Re: The Pass

Postby Ian Kendall » November 4th, 2018, 5:53 pm

Yes, but how is that beneficial?

Again, doing something is rarely better than doing nothing (from the perspective of the audience). Especially if the desired effect is magical.

The Burnaby Kid
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Re: The Pass

Postby The Burnaby Kid » November 4th, 2018, 6:12 pm

Darwin Ortiz explains this the best. I'll try to paraphrase.

If the effect is that the card magically travels from the middle to the top, then it makes sense that it'd be better if nothing appears to happen, so a pass makes more sense than a shuffle in that context. If you put the card in the middle of the deck, shuffle, and then show the card on top, then it stands to reason that the shuffle had something to do with it, which undermines the effect.

If the effect is that the spectator can mysteriously guess the position of a card, then it makes sense that it'd be better for the card to apparently be in a random position, so a shuffle makes more sense than a pass in that context. If you put the card in the middle, do nothing, and then the spectator names a number nowhere near that position, if the card shows up there, then that means that the magician did something sneaky to get the card into position, which undermines the effect.
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Ian Kendall
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Re: The Pass

Postby Ian Kendall » November 4th, 2018, 6:22 pm

That's a good point, but I fear it might create bad construction.

An attempt to explain; if a card is returned to the deck and the deck is immediately shuffled, there is a chance that a spectator might question that chain of events. However, if we can add in some time misdirection, then the two events (returning the card, and then the shuffle) become distinct and less likely to be taken together.

So, in the second example, have the card returned and controlled with a pass. You can then relax, get into an open position, and then a few moments later you can do a very easy shuffle to retain the top card, and you are in the same position you were in before, but without doing the overt dirty work _immediately_ after the return of the card.

The Burnaby Kid
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Re: The Pass

Postby The Burnaby Kid » November 4th, 2018, 6:29 pm

While I see what you're saying, the delay that you're speaking of is a bit tangential to my point, which is merely that the effect benefits by having a shuffle in there. Besides, one can just as easily (arguably more easily) insert a delay prior to a shuffle through various extant jogging techniques and setting the cards down.

For what it's worth, I do what you talk about all the time, using a secret control to get the card into position and then shuffling from there after a pause. However, that alone isn't an argument against other shuffle-only methods (assuming competent handling, of course).
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Ian Kendall
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Re: The Pass

Postby Ian Kendall » November 5th, 2018, 6:37 am

Besides, one can just as easily (arguably more easily) insert a delay prior to a shuffle through various extant jogging techniques and setting the cards down.


I would counter that part; if you have to worry about holding a break or leaving a jog, it's considerably more involved than just doing a pass and setting the cards down, or holding them in an open position.

In the end we are circling back to the idea of justifying extra actions to compensate for not being able to use the most efficient solution...

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Re: The Pass

Postby MagicbyAlfred » November 5th, 2018, 9:59 am

Magician Logic in using pass to control a selected card: "Well, if i just do a smooth, deceptive pass, it will look like I did nothing and the spectator will believe the card is lost somewhere in the the pack."

Reality: The spectator knows the magician can control a card by sleight of hand not detectible to the spectator. He/she doesn't know how the magician did it, but nevertheless believes the magician did something sneaky to control the card (which, in actuality, is true).

Magician Logic in using a pass followed by a shuffle (or, alternatively, no pass, but just a shuffle or a double undercut) to control a selected card: "Well, if i just do a smooth, deceptive pass followed by a smooth deceptive overhand shuffle or double undercut control, the spectator will believe the card is lost somewhere in the the pack."

Reality: The spectator knows the magician can control a card by sleight of hand not detectible to the spectator. He/she doesn't know how the magician did it, but nevertheless believes the magician did something sneaky to control the card (which, in actuality, is true).

This is why I subscribe to the Professor Hoffman approach of palming off the card after the control (irrespective of which control it may be), handing the deck to spectator to shuffle, then replacing the card after the spectator has shuffled to their heart's content. I use the same approach in Spectator Cuts to 4 aces, Card to Ceiling, and various other effects, as well. This may slow things down, but it builds true conviction. Without that conviction, it doesn't matter how incredible the revelation or location may be. Like anyone else on here, this is just my opinion, but it is one born of blood, sweat and tears, performing for laymen for over a quarter of a century.

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jkeyes1000
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Re: The Pass

Postby jkeyes1000 » November 5th, 2018, 12:57 pm

MagicbyAlfred wrote:Magician Logic in using pass to control a selected card: "Well, if i just do a smooth, deceptive pass, it will look like I did nothing and the spectator will believe the card is lost somewhere in the the pack."

Reality: The spectator knows the magician can control a card by sleight of hand not detectible to the spectator. He/she doesn't know how the magician did it, but nevertheless believes the magician did something sneaky to control the card (which, in actuality, is true).

Magician Logic in using a pass followed by a shuffle (or, alternatively, no pass, but just a shuffle or a double undercut) to control a selected card: "Well, if i just do a smooth, deceptive pass followed by a smooth deceptive overhand shuffle or double undercut control, the spectator will believe the card is lost somewhere in the the pack."

Reality: The spectator knows the magician can control a card by sleight of hand not detectible to the spectator. He/she doesn't know how the magician did it, but nevertheless believes the magician did something sneaky to control the card (which, in actuality, is true).

This is why I subscribe to the Professor Hoffman approach of palming off the card after the control (irrespective of which control it may be), handing the deck to spectator to shuffle, then replacing the card after the spectator has shuffled to their heart's content. I use the same approach in Spectator Cuts to 4 aces, Card to Ceiling, and various other effects, as well. This may slow things down, but it builds true conviction. Without that conviction, it doesn't matter how incredible the revelation or location may be. Like anyone else on here, this is just my opinion, but it is one born of blood, sweat and tears, performing for laymen for over a quarter of a century.


I agree with your philosophy on this subject, but I have never been fond of palming. It is one of the most well known deceptions in magic, and therefore one of the hardest to get away with. If you can manage it, that's great. However, I prefer a more visual assurance that no "funny business" is going on when I do The Pass

First of all, I do it VERY SLOWLY, so as to allay suspicion of the hand being "quicker than the eye". After the chosen card is replaced in the face-up fan of cards (I often ask them to insert it only partly, with half of it still sticking out), I turn the spread towards the onlookers, making sure they see the bottom card of the deck. It helps to use a MEMORABLE card, like a king, a queen, or an ace. I close the fan gradually, keeping both the selected card AND THE BOTTOM CARD in full view.

As I do this, I am maintaining an invisible break at the chosen card with my middle finger. All I need do is LIFT the bottom half of the deck--sort of LEVER it up and over the top half as I simultaneously close the fan and bury the card.

By keeping the BOTTOM CARD in full view the whole time, I can easily conceal the fact that I am inverting the two portions. And because I lift the bottom half WELL ABOVE the top half (no contact), it is a perfectly silent move.

It seems as though all I have done is slowly compress the fan and gingerly flip the pack over.

I wish I had a video to show you, but I hope my description will resonate with those that are conversent with The Turnover Pass

The Burnaby Kid
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Re: The Pass

Postby The Burnaby Kid » November 5th, 2018, 1:27 pm

Ian Kendall wrote:In the end we are circling back to the idea of justifying extra actions to compensate for not being able to use the most efficient solution...


That analysis can just as easily apply to introducing an extra sleight (the pass) to a trick that doesn't necessarily benefit from it from the audience's point of view, if the trick needs a shuffle in there anyway.

MagicbyAlfred wrote:This is why I subscribe to the Professor Hoffman approach of palming off the card after the control (irrespective of which control it may be), handing the deck to spectator to shuffle, then replacing the card after the spectator has shuffled to their heart's content.


When it comes to selling the idea to a spectator that the card is lost, then yes, having that spectator shuffle is hard to beat.
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Richard Kaufman
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Re: The Pass

Postby Richard Kaufman » November 5th, 2018, 3:19 pm

BK: Can you do a Pass that is not seen by the audience without any wild or unnatural gyration to cover it?
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jkeyes1000
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Re: The Pass

Postby jkeyes1000 » November 5th, 2018, 4:06 pm

Regarding The Burning Question of whether to shuffle or not....

I find it is usually best to let the spectators decide. What better way to dispel the notion of CONTRIVANCE than to allow the audience to direct the action?

The Burnaby Kid
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Re: The Pass

Postby The Burnaby Kid » November 5th, 2018, 4:18 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:BK: Can you do a Pass that is not seen by the audience without any wild or unnatural gyration to cover it?


If it'll help make the argument, let me see what I can do about getting video of it.
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jkeyes1000
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Re: The Pass

Postby jkeyes1000 » November 5th, 2018, 4:37 pm

The Burnaby Kid wrote:
Richard Kaufman wrote:BK: Can you do a Pass that is not seen by the audience without any wild or unnatural gyration to cover it?


If it'll help make the argument, let me see what I can do about getting video of it.


I don't know where Richard is going with this, but all that is required to make an undetectable Pass is to hide the upper portion of the deck with your upstage hand. You can do it as slowly as you like and nothing will show, even on Instant Replay or frame-by-frame analysis.

The only concern with doing it slowly (as I do) is that the lower portion of the deck (which is supposed to be The Whole Deck) might seem a bit thin. If it it happens to be a short stack, I tend to speed up the move just a bit.


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