The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.
Jonathan Townsend
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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 4th, 2018, 2:27 pm

performer wrote:... appropriate for a crooked gambler. Whether it is the same for magicians is a debate that has been going on forever.
There's gotta be something more to a magic trick design than:
1) demonstrate skills openly
2) contrive some arrangement to which uses those skills
3) demonstrate outcomes per earlier demonstrated skills.

for example; if show them a second deal. then turn up the top card of the pack, and turn over that card again. then deal the top card onto the table... what does that mean to the audience? They know you could have dealt the second card. Are they supposed to wonder every time you deal a card to the table?
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby performer » August 4th, 2018, 4:03 pm

Some people hide their skill and some people don't. And some people are in between. And of course even if you are of the school of thought that you hide the skill the audience pretty much figure out you have it anyway. And that is the way you might want it as a magician. You certainly don't want it as a crooked gambler.

Peirceman
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Re: RE: Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Peirceman » August 4th, 2018, 5:19 pm

performer wrote:This thread reminds me of something which Harry Lorayne wrote a long time ago to the effect that magicians worry too much about things laymen don't give a darn about. Oddiy enough I think he wrote in connection with a double lift description!
I think a lot of this depends on why whether or not you are performing as a card sharp or a magician.

If your style is, "look at all the cool stuff I can do that you can't", then some not so natural styles can be incorporated and no one will care. You are simply juggling cards, not performing magic.

The same can be said if your style is that of the all powerful Oz. A powerful magician, by default, will handle his/her apporati different than mere mortals.

If your style is more, "I'm with you, I have no idea how this is happening, but I'm having fun showing it to you", then naturalness is critical.

Just my $0.02

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Jonathan Townsend
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Re: RE: Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 4th, 2018, 10:29 pm

Peirceman wrote:... Just my $0.02
Thank you.

Jonathan Townsend
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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 4th, 2018, 10:45 pm

Bill Duncan wrote:...I kind of wish we'd stop talking about the mechanics of the double lift so obsessively, and pay more attention the management of the moment. The best description of which, I think, is in Diverting Card Magic by Andrew Galloway. If memory serves me correctly, this is the double lift he suggests, as well.
On page nine, middle of the page, he makes some suggestions including using Harry Lorayne's handling from Close Up Card Magic.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

Edward Pungot
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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Edward Pungot » August 5th, 2018, 7:59 am

Nobody really wants to be punked by a juvenile demi-god or a show-off.

It seems if we want to win the crowd we should ground ourselves and focus our presentations on our humanity--our hopes, fears, desires, etc..

All sleights should be in- transit actions supporting the effect.

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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby performer » August 5th, 2018, 8:13 am

Hopes, fears and desires? That is easy. When I watch the average magician (and most of them are average) My main hope is that the trick will be over and done with quickly, my main fear is that it is not going to happen and my main desire is that i was somewhere else.

Edward Pungot
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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Edward Pungot » August 5th, 2018, 8:43 am

So are you saying the average magician is just masturbating in public.

Edward Pungot
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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Edward Pungot » August 5th, 2018, 9:53 am

I think part of me has been steeped in method for so long that I forget the pure beauty of a simple effect. Seeing the Invisible Deck for the first time for example as a layman and how wonderful an impression it had on me. Uncluttered with "meaning" or story. Maybe trying to give it meaning ruins the effect. Like giving patter to the rising Sun.

Jack Shalom
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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Jack Shalom » August 5th, 2018, 1:34 pm

"Let's suppose the Sun represents the Ace of Diamonds, and the moon represents the Ace of Spades. Now if you look at tonight's solar eclipse, it looks as if the Ace of Spades is in front of the Ace of Diamonds. But a click of the fingers and presto, the sun and the moon have switched places almost as if the two cards had magically transposed!"

Method: Giant lever for the moon. Use your favorite method to ditch the lever afterwards.

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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby performer » August 5th, 2018, 4:13 pm

Edward Pungot wrote:So are you saying the average magician is just masturbating in public.


As a psychic reverend and holy man of the cloth I have no idea what that means. However, I am getting a vibe that it is terribly vulgar and I cannot possibly approve.

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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby performer » August 5th, 2018, 4:18 pm

Edward Pungot wrote:I think part of me has been steeped in method for so long that I forget the pure beauty of a simple effect. Seeing the Invisible Deck for the first time for example as a layman and how wonderful an impression it had on me. Uncluttered with "meaning" or story. Maybe trying to give it meaning ruins the effect. Like giving patter to the rising Sun.


Indeed. I have always been very cynical about magicians trying to add "meaning" to their work. To me that kind of effort is quite meaningless. It encourages pomposity and long windedness and attracts all those awful acting types to magic. I find it to be an excuse to over-present, more often than not. The best meaning is THAT YOU ARE DOING A TRICK. No other meaning in necessary.

However if you are daft enough to insist on this meaningless search for meaning my best advices is less is more. Like salt on a meal. A little flavours the food. Too much of it gives you high blood pressure.

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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 5th, 2018, 5:21 pm

Edward Pungot wrote: punked by a juvenile demi-god ...
interesting phrase. Thanks.

...yet our literature and dialogue continues to discuss fooling.

I like the moment when the performer catches the invisible deck in the paper bag.

I read somewhere that Nobody likes to be made the fool. .Would you mind playing the role of nobody for a couple of minutes ?
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

Edward Pungot
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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Edward Pungot » August 5th, 2018, 10:17 pm

I like how the moon perfectly covers the Sun in a total eclipse like a perfect double. Neat trick.

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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 5th, 2018, 11:39 pm

Edward Pungot wrote:I like how the moon perfectly covers the Sun in a total eclipse like a perfect double. Neat trick.
https://www.space.com/27412-christopher ... lipse.html
There's a story about how that trick worked form Columbus :)
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

Glenn Bish Bishop
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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Glenn Bish Bishop » August 14th, 2018, 10:33 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:It's nonsense. We are not laymen, nor are we pretending to be. Sometimes not understanding what Vernon meant by "be natural" leads to essays like that.

No, some laymen don't use their left thumb. We are not laymen. At a bare minimum, we are expert card handlers. So, like a professional dealer, we might push the card off the deck with our left thumb. Or, there are plenty of other double lifts if you don't want to push off with the left thumb. Daley's Strike Double. The Stuart Gordon Lift. Neither of those requires a getready, either.

Laymen (unless they play cards a lot) handle a deck with no grace, like a monkey.

We are not monkeys.


I agree. I like the lift in the book the card magic of LePaul. It is nateral for me.

Rob Dobson
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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Rob Dobson » August 15th, 2018, 4:39 am

Glenn Bish Bishop wrote:
Richard Kaufman wrote:It's nonsense. We are not laymen, nor are we pretending to be. Sometimes not understanding what Vernon meant by "be natural" leads to essays like that.

No, some laymen don't use their left thumb. We are not laymen. At a bare minimum, we are expert card handlers. So, like a professional dealer, we might push the card off the deck with our left thumb. Or, there are plenty of other double lifts if you don't want to push off with the left thumb. Daley's Strike Double. The Stuart Gordon Lift. Neither of those requires a getready, either.

Laymen (unless they play cards a lot) handle a deck with no grace, like a monkey.

We are not monkeys.


I agree. I like the lift in the book the card magic of LePaul. It is nateral for me.


With respect, I think this misses the context in which the blog post is written. Andy 'unperforms' on a one-to-one basis with friends entirely informally; the focus of the magic he does is not him, the power does not reside in him - it's always somewhere else. Within that context he is not an expert card handler at all, and so it makes sense for him to understand how the person he's performing for would most naturally do 'X', and to then use that information to inform how he uses 'X' within a performance.

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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby performer » August 15th, 2018, 7:29 am

This is most amusing! Only magicians would spend ages and ages discussing the best way to do a double lift! I can do all sorts of fancy double lifts, including the two in the Paul Le Paul book, The Vernon Double Lift, The Leipzig Double lift combined with Harry Lorayne's Kick Double lift and many, many more. The ironic thing is that the double lift I use the most is the one that I use when selling svengali decks. It must be the crudest and most awful double lift known to mankind.

The advantage is that it is FAST. When you are working svengali decks you haven't got time to piddle about with fancy double lifts and in any event the short card gets in the way.

Edward Pungot
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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Edward Pungot » August 15th, 2018, 7:53 am

I never realized how true your statement of the Sevengali double is . And it still fools them. The bar has been set so low but I guess that says a lot about the human condition. People like the feeling of surprise and having things change under there hand. And they even fork over the money just to own one. It's a religion. Every drawer will have a Sevengali deck and the Sengali-double will have it's rightful place in this context and trick.

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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Jackpot » August 15th, 2018, 9:55 am

performer wrote:This is most amusing! Only magicians would spend ages and ages discussing the best way to do a double lift! I can do all sorts of fancy double lifts, including the two in the Paul Le Paul book, The Vernon Double Lift, The Leipzig Double lift combined with Harry Lorayne's Kick Double lift and many, many more. The ironic thing is that the double lift I use the most is the one that I use when selling svengali decks. It must be the crudest and most awful double lift known to mankind.

The advantage is that it is FAST. When you are working svengali decks you haven't got time to piddle about with fancy double lifts and in any event the short card gets in the way.

This double lift is very "natural" (as are many others which have been referenced). Double lifts are not natural because a card player would do it in a game or because it looks like what a normal person would do. What makes a double lift natural is the motivation for doing it. The motivation is to show the "top" card of the deck. If it's executed in an unassuming manner it's natural.
Not the one who created the Potter Index.

Rob Dobson
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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Rob Dobson » August 15th, 2018, 10:24 am

performer wrote:This is most amusing! Only magicians would spend ages and ages discussing the best way to do a double lift!


This is true - it's rarely a discussion point in the plumbing profession, for instance.

Jack Shalom
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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Jack Shalom » August 15th, 2018, 10:36 am

On the other hand, in the British elevator industry...

performer
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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby performer » August 15th, 2018, 11:27 am

Jackpot wrote:
performer wrote:This is most amusing! Only magicians would spend ages and ages discussing the best way to do a double lift! I can do all sorts of fancy double lifts, including the two in the Paul Le Paul book, The Vernon Double Lift, The Leipzig Double lift combined with Harry Lorayne's Kick Double lift and many, many more. The ironic thing is that the double lift I use the most is the one that I use when selling svengali decks. It must be the crudest and most awful double lift known to mankind.

The advantage is that it is FAST. When you are working svengali decks you haven't got time to piddle about with fancy double lifts and in any event the short card gets in the way.

This double lift is very "natural" (as are many others which have been referenced). Double lifts are not natural because a card player would do it in a game or because it looks like what a normal person would do. What makes a double lift natural is the motivation for doing it. The motivation is to show the "top" card of the deck. If it's executed in an unassuming manner it's natural.


I don't think it is that natural! I would never use it with a regular deck for example! Still, I do it three times in the routine so it has to be fast and practical. It is really the only method available because of the short card. Oddly enough in recent years I have altered it slightly to make it look even more unnatural by curving the card inward rather than outward. The outward curve is more natural but on occasion astute spectators can see the cards are not in alignment. It really is an awful double lift and I only use it for the svengali deck where it fits perfectly.

Oddly enough skilled technician Cy Endfield has it described in his book "Entertaining Card Magic" but with a regular deck. I think he used it too!

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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby performer » August 15th, 2018, 11:34 am

Rob Dobson wrote:
performer wrote:This is most amusing! Only magicians would spend ages and ages discussing the best way to do a double lift!


This is true - it's rarely a discussion point in the plumbing profession, for instance.


Larry Jennings was in the plumbing profession I believe. I suspect he may have discussed it from time to time, although possibly not with other plumbers. Still you never know.......................


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