The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 4th, 2018, 2:27 pm

performer wrote:... appropriate for a crooked gambler. Whether it is the same for magicians is a debate that has been going on forever.
There's gotta be something more to a magic trick design than:
1) demonstrate skills openly
2) contrive some arrangement to which uses those skills
3) demonstrate outcomes per earlier demonstrated skills.

for example; if show them a second deal. then turn up the top card of the pack, and turn over that card again. then deal the top card onto the table... what does that mean to the audience? They know you could have dealt the second card. Are they supposed to wonder every time you deal a card to the table?
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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby performer » August 4th, 2018, 4:03 pm

Some people hide their skill and some people don't. And some people are in between. And of course even if you are of the school of thought that you hide the skill the audience pretty much figure out you have it anyway. And that is the way you might want it as a magician. You certainly don't want it as a crooked gambler.

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Re: RE: Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Peirceman » August 4th, 2018, 5:19 pm

performer wrote:This thread reminds me of something which Harry Lorayne wrote a long time ago to the effect that magicians worry too much about things laymen don't give a darn about. Oddiy enough I think he wrote in connection with a double lift description!
I think a lot of this depends on why whether or not you are performing as a card sharp or a magician.

If your style is, "look at all the cool stuff I can do that you can't", then some not so natural styles can be incorporated and no one will care. You are simply juggling cards, not performing magic.

The same can be said if your style is that of the all powerful Oz. A powerful magician, by default, will handle his/her apporati different than mere mortals.

If your style is more, "I'm with you, I have no idea how this is happening, but I'm having fun showing it to you", then naturalness is critical.

Just my $0.02

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Re: RE: Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 4th, 2018, 10:29 pm

Peirceman wrote:... Just my $0.02
Thank you.

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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 4th, 2018, 10:45 pm

Bill Duncan wrote:...I kind of wish we'd stop talking about the mechanics of the double lift so obsessively, and pay more attention the management of the moment. The best description of which, I think, is in Diverting Card Magic by Andrew Galloway. If memory serves me correctly, this is the double lift he suggests, as well.
On page nine, middle of the page, he makes some suggestions including using Harry Lorayne's handling from Close Up Card Magic.
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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Edward Pungot » August 5th, 2018, 7:59 am

Nobody really wants to be punked by a juvenile demi-god or a show-off.

It seems if we want to win the crowd we should ground ourselves and focus our presentations on our humanity--our hopes, fears, desires, etc..

All sleights should be in- transit actions supporting the effect.

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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby performer » August 5th, 2018, 8:13 am

Hopes, fears and desires? That is easy. When I watch the average magician (and most of them are average) My main hope is that the trick will be over and done with quickly, my main fear is that it is not going to happen and my main desire is that i was somewhere else.

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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Edward Pungot » August 5th, 2018, 8:43 am

So are you saying the average magician is just masturbating in public.

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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Edward Pungot » August 5th, 2018, 9:53 am

I think part of me has been steeped in method for so long that I forget the pure beauty of a simple effect. Seeing the Invisible Deck for the first time for example as a layman and how wonderful an impression it had on me. Uncluttered with "meaning" or story. Maybe trying to give it meaning ruins the effect. Like giving patter to the rising Sun.

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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Jack Shalom » August 5th, 2018, 1:34 pm

"Let's suppose the Sun represents the Ace of Diamonds, and the moon represents the Ace of Spades. Now if you look at tonight's solar eclipse, it looks as if the Ace of Spades is in front of the Ace of Diamonds. But a click of the fingers and presto, the sun and the moon have switched places almost as if the two cards had magically transposed!"

Method: Giant lever for the moon. Use your favorite method to ditch the lever afterwards.

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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby performer » August 5th, 2018, 4:13 pm

Edward Pungot wrote:So are you saying the average magician is just masturbating in public.


As a psychic reverend and holy man of the cloth I have no idea what that means. However, I am getting a vibe that it is terribly vulgar and I cannot possibly approve.

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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby performer » August 5th, 2018, 4:18 pm

Edward Pungot wrote:I think part of me has been steeped in method for so long that I forget the pure beauty of a simple effect. Seeing the Invisible Deck for the first time for example as a layman and how wonderful an impression it had on me. Uncluttered with "meaning" or story. Maybe trying to give it meaning ruins the effect. Like giving patter to the rising Sun.


Indeed. I have always been very cynical about magicians trying to add "meaning" to their work. To me that kind of effort is quite meaningless. It encourages pomposity and long windedness and attracts all those awful acting types to magic. I find it to be an excuse to over-present, more often than not. The best meaning is THAT YOU ARE DOING A TRICK. No other meaning in necessary.

However if you are daft enough to insist on this meaningless search for meaning my best advices is less is more. Like salt on a meal. A little flavours the food. Too much of it gives you high blood pressure.

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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 5th, 2018, 5:21 pm

Edward Pungot wrote: punked by a juvenile demi-god ...
interesting phrase. Thanks.

...yet our literature and dialogue continues to discuss fooling.

I like the moment when the performer catches the invisible deck in the paper bag.

I read somewhere that Nobody likes to be made the fool. .Would you mind playing the role of nobody for a couple of minutes ?
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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Edward Pungot » August 5th, 2018, 10:17 pm

I like how the moon perfectly covers the Sun in a total eclipse like a perfect double. Neat trick.

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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 5th, 2018, 11:39 pm

Edward Pungot wrote:I like how the moon perfectly covers the Sun in a total eclipse like a perfect double. Neat trick.
https://www.space.com/27412-christopher ... lipse.html
There's a story about how that trick worked form Columbus :)
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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Glenn Bish Bishop » August 14th, 2018, 10:33 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:It's nonsense. We are not laymen, nor are we pretending to be. Sometimes not understanding what Vernon meant by "be natural" leads to essays like that.

No, some laymen don't use their left thumb. We are not laymen. At a bare minimum, we are expert card handlers. So, like a professional dealer, we might push the card off the deck with our left thumb. Or, there are plenty of other double lifts if you don't want to push off with the left thumb. Daley's Strike Double. The Stuart Gordon Lift. Neither of those requires a getready, either.

Laymen (unless they play cards a lot) handle a deck with no grace, like a monkey.

We are not monkeys.


I agree. I like the lift in the book the card magic of LePaul. It is nateral for me.

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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Rob Dobson » August 15th, 2018, 4:39 am

Glenn Bish Bishop wrote:
Richard Kaufman wrote:It's nonsense. We are not laymen, nor are we pretending to be. Sometimes not understanding what Vernon meant by "be natural" leads to essays like that.

No, some laymen don't use their left thumb. We are not laymen. At a bare minimum, we are expert card handlers. So, like a professional dealer, we might push the card off the deck with our left thumb. Or, there are plenty of other double lifts if you don't want to push off with the left thumb. Daley's Strike Double. The Stuart Gordon Lift. Neither of those requires a getready, either.

Laymen (unless they play cards a lot) handle a deck with no grace, like a monkey.

We are not monkeys.


I agree. I like the lift in the book the card magic of LePaul. It is nateral for me.


With respect, I think this misses the context in which the blog post is written. Andy 'unperforms' on a one-to-one basis with friends entirely informally; the focus of the magic he does is not him, the power does not reside in him - it's always somewhere else. Within that context he is not an expert card handler at all, and so it makes sense for him to understand how the person he's performing for would most naturally do 'X', and to then use that information to inform how he uses 'X' within a performance.

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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby performer » August 15th, 2018, 7:29 am

This is most amusing! Only magicians would spend ages and ages discussing the best way to do a double lift! I can do all sorts of fancy double lifts, including the two in the Paul Le Paul book, The Vernon Double Lift, The Leipzig Double lift combined with Harry Lorayne's Kick Double lift and many, many more. The ironic thing is that the double lift I use the most is the one that I use when selling svengali decks. It must be the crudest and most awful double lift known to mankind.

The advantage is that it is FAST. When you are working svengali decks you haven't got time to piddle about with fancy double lifts and in any event the short card gets in the way.

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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Edward Pungot » August 15th, 2018, 7:53 am

I never realized how true your statement of the Sevengali double is . And it still fools them. The bar has been set so low but I guess that says a lot about the human condition. People like the feeling of surprise and having things change under there hand. And they even fork over the money just to own one. It's a religion. Every drawer will have a Sevengali deck and the Sengali-double will have it's rightful place in this context and trick.

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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Jackpot » August 15th, 2018, 9:55 am

performer wrote:This is most amusing! Only magicians would spend ages and ages discussing the best way to do a double lift! I can do all sorts of fancy double lifts, including the two in the Paul Le Paul book, The Vernon Double Lift, The Leipzig Double lift combined with Harry Lorayne's Kick Double lift and many, many more. The ironic thing is that the double lift I use the most is the one that I use when selling svengali decks. It must be the crudest and most awful double lift known to mankind.

The advantage is that it is FAST. When you are working svengali decks you haven't got time to piddle about with fancy double lifts and in any event the short card gets in the way.

This double lift is very "natural" (as are many others which have been referenced). Double lifts are not natural because a card player would do it in a game or because it looks like what a normal person would do. What makes a double lift natural is the motivation for doing it. The motivation is to show the "top" card of the deck. If it's executed in an unassuming manner it's natural.
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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Rob Dobson » August 15th, 2018, 10:24 am

performer wrote:This is most amusing! Only magicians would spend ages and ages discussing the best way to do a double lift!


This is true - it's rarely a discussion point in the plumbing profession, for instance.

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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Jack Shalom » August 15th, 2018, 10:36 am

On the other hand, in the British elevator industry...

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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby performer » August 15th, 2018, 11:27 am

Jackpot wrote:
performer wrote:This is most amusing! Only magicians would spend ages and ages discussing the best way to do a double lift! I can do all sorts of fancy double lifts, including the two in the Paul Le Paul book, The Vernon Double Lift, The Leipzig Double lift combined with Harry Lorayne's Kick Double lift and many, many more. The ironic thing is that the double lift I use the most is the one that I use when selling svengali decks. It must be the crudest and most awful double lift known to mankind.

The advantage is that it is FAST. When you are working svengali decks you haven't got time to piddle about with fancy double lifts and in any event the short card gets in the way.

This double lift is very "natural" (as are many others which have been referenced). Double lifts are not natural because a card player would do it in a game or because it looks like what a normal person would do. What makes a double lift natural is the motivation for doing it. The motivation is to show the "top" card of the deck. If it's executed in an unassuming manner it's natural.


I don't think it is that natural! I would never use it with a regular deck for example! Still, I do it three times in the routine so it has to be fast and practical. It is really the only method available because of the short card. Oddly enough in recent years I have altered it slightly to make it look even more unnatural by curving the card inward rather than outward. The outward curve is more natural but on occasion astute spectators can see the cards are not in alignment. It really is an awful double lift and I only use it for the svengali deck where it fits perfectly.

Oddly enough skilled technician Cy Endfield has it described in his book "Entertaining Card Magic" but with a regular deck. I think he used it too!

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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby performer » August 15th, 2018, 11:34 am

Rob Dobson wrote:
performer wrote:This is most amusing! Only magicians would spend ages and ages discussing the best way to do a double lift!


This is true - it's rarely a discussion point in the plumbing profession, for instance.


Larry Jennings was in the plumbing profession I believe. I suspect he may have discussed it from time to time, although possibly not with other plumbers. Still you never know.......................

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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Andy Galloway » August 18th, 2018, 7:54 pm

Thanks Quentin for plugging the book and Bill for your kind remarks about it. The lifts I use the most are Leipzig`s as described in the Leipzig book by Dai Vernon and Vernon`s own from The Stars Of Magic. The reason for turning a card face up is to reveal its identity and should look as effortless as possible.

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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 18th, 2018, 8:32 pm

Hi Andy! Stop by more often.
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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Leonard Hevia » August 18th, 2018, 11:58 pm

Frank Garcia noted in Super Subtle Card Miracles: Magicians are collectors. Al Goshman collects playing cards. Lee noble collects "pulls," and I collect Double Lifts.

I try keep these ten in rotation:

1. Daley's Strike Double from Stars of Magic and Daryl's Ambitious Card Omnibus. A nice finesse taught in Daryl's book.
2. Pirouette Double from Garcia's Super Subtle.
3. Leipzig's Double from Vernon's Tribute to Nate Leipzig book.
4. The Flourish Double and Triple from Kaufman's Cardmagic. For a triple it can't be beat. It's in constant motion and hides the thickness.
5. Allerton's Snap Double from Robert Parrish's The Close-Up Magician. Also a good lift for triples due to the constant motion.
6. Bob White's Double from It's a Matter of Style.
7. Derek Dingle's stud type Double from Kaufman's The Complete Works of Derek Dingle. That third finger lift from the outer right corner is too precarious so I stick with the break and use my left thumb pad on on the lower right corner to help my third finger swivel the double out.
8. Ron Wilson's Double from the Uncanny Scot.
9. Soft Double from Roger Klause's In Concert.
10. Double Down: a one handed get ready to turn the double face down from Klause's book.

If the double is turned over like a book page, the Altman Trap with the thenar muscle segues to an automatic break for the face up double.

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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby MagicbyAlfred » August 19th, 2018, 7:49 pm

Performer Wrote: "I take the middle position with this. Some sleights require misdirection and some don't...the double lift doesn't except perhaps for the get ready if you use one."

I agree, and time misdirection is what I find best after employing the get ready, that is to say, there should be a a substantial time interval between the get ready and the lift.

But then, more specifically to what I believe Performer was referring to - there is also the misdirection and/or motivation for the get ready itself that must be considered. Do it when they are not looking, or have a reason for it, for example, I sometimes act as if I am peeking to see if the right card is on top and then sheepishly act as if I failed when I "come clean," turning it over to show it isn't.

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-on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 19th, 2018, 8:16 pm

Hi Folks, about the Stars of Magic description (Ambitious Card routine, last pages 78-79). The deck starts in the left hand with forefinger underneath. The right hand comes over -also notice forefinger on top of the pack- and seems to help square the pack
** ?? and then brings the top card(s) over to the right?? ** . Then there's an action where the right hand lets go of the cards, moves back a couple of inches, then grips the top card(s) from the right side by thumb on top and middle fingertip, with forefinger extended to make a third point of contact further to the left underneath the card.

Is the intention to mime sliding the top card over using the left thumb?
Where's the performer's eye contact/focus during these actions?
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Re: -on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Leonard Hevia » August 19th, 2018, 9:05 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:Is the intention to mime sliding the top card over using the left thumb?
Where's the performer's eye contact/focus during these actions?


Jamy Swiss writes about Vernon's Double Lift in his essay "A Dissertation on the Double Lift" from the October 2008 13th issue of Antinomy:

"Vernon's handling was a far cry from such awkward and unnatural displays--although the details are often misunderstood, as is the role of the right hand. Even though the right hand is used to carry the double toward the right, its presence is justified as part of squaring the deck just before the apparent push-off by the left thumb. The right hand then promptly releases the double, changing position for the turnover. If you pay attention to the details of Ganson's description, the proper execution is made clear."

It's probably best to be looking at the audience during these actions. If you're looking at them, the actions of your hands decrease in importance in their eyes. Ganson's description referred to by Swiss is in The Dai Vernon Book of Magic, and according to Swiss a much better description than the one in Stars of Magic. Agreed with Alfred, the get ready has to be planned and judiciously prepared ahead of time.

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Re: -on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Brad Jeffers » August 20th, 2018, 2:55 am

Jonathan Townsend wrote:Is the intention to mime sliding the top card over using the left thumb?
Where's the performer's eye contact/focus during these actions?
My focus during these actions is on the cards and my hands, as that is where I want the audience's focus to be.
Done correctly, the double lift creates a perfect optical illusion of turning over a single card.
I don't want to make eye contact during this brief moment.
What's the point of utilizing an optical illusion if they're not going to be looking at it?
Where do you want them to be looking when you do an Elmsley count?
Same thing.

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Re: -on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Leonard Hevia » August 20th, 2018, 2:29 pm

Brad Jeffers wrote:
Jonathan Townsend wrote:Is the intention to mime sliding the top card over using the left thumb?
Where's the performer's eye contact/focus during these actions?
My focus during these actions is on the cards and my hands, as that is where I want the audience's focus to be.
Done correctly, the double lift creates a perfect optical illusion of turning over a single card.
I don't want to make eye contact during this brief moment.
What's the point of utilizing an optical illusion if they're not going to be looking at it?
Where do you want them to be looking when you do an Elmsley count?
Same thing.


Not quite the same thing. During the actions of the Double Lift I prefer eye contact and then back to the the deck after the double is safely back on top of the deck and camouflaged. In the Elmsley Count the double is not out in the open as in a Double Lift and better hidden if it were to break apart a little.

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Re: -on Natural Double Lifts

Postby performer » August 20th, 2018, 7:26 pm

Leonard Hevia wrote:
Jonathan Townsend wrote:Is the intention to mime sliding the top card over using the left thumb?
Where's the performer's eye contact/focus during these actions?


Jamy Swiss writes about Vernon's Double Lift in his essay "A Dissertation on the Double Lift" from the October 2008 13th issue of Antinomy:

"Vernon's handling was a far cry from such awkward and unnatural displays--although the details are often misunderstood, as is the role of the right hand. Even though the right hand is used to carry the double toward the right, its presence is justified as part of squaring the deck just before the apparent push-off by the left thumb. The right hand then promptly releases the double, changing position for the turnover. If you pay attention to the details of Ganson's description, the proper execution is made clear."

It's probably best to be looking at the audience during these actions. If you're looking at them, the actions of your hands decrease in importance in their eyes. Ganson's description referred to by Swiss is in The Dai Vernon Book of Magic, and according to Swiss a much better description than the one in Stars of Magic. Agreed with Alfred, the get ready has to be planned and judiciously prepared ahead of time.


I never look at members of my audience. If I do they might see how much I hate them. As for the Vernon Double Lift I have been doing it for decades thousands upon times and never even once have I been caught. I use the Ganson description and the get-ready described.

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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby performer » August 20th, 2018, 7:29 pm

Andy Galloway wrote:Thanks Quentin for plugging the book and Bill for your kind remarks about it. The lifts I use the most are Leipzig`s as described in the Leipzig book by Dai Vernon and Vernon`s own from The Stars Of Magic. The reason for turning a card face up is to reveal its identity and should look as effortless as possible.


I use the Leipzig double lift very frequently. However, I came up with the idea of combining Harry Lorayne's Kick Double Lift described in Decksterity with it. It is almost tailor made for the Leipzig method. It improves the effectiveness and makes it twice as good.

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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Glenn Bish Bishop » August 21st, 2018, 5:30 pm

I think that the article is nothing more than theory. In my opinion the word natural doesn't apply when doing a card move. The word natural could be replaced by the word practical. What is the most practical double lift? The one that works, of course.

What is the use of a double lift? It depends on the routine. A lot of the time a double lift is used to switch one card for another. The second deal could be used as well as a bottom deal to do the same thing. One could also use a top or bottom change. Or a palming method of adding a card above from a full palm. Or even the old mexican turn over.

In all the methods, the word natural doesn't apply as much as the word practical.

In my opinion when magicians write about what is the natural way, it is only something that they are arguing about. And arguing about magic to me isn't practical.

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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 21st, 2018, 6:26 pm

Leo, Derek Dingle made up his Stud Double just because he actually used the Stuart Gordon Double Lift and was told to keep it top secret. So his stud double was created and used only when he was performing for magicians. Additionally, the Dingle sleight actually duplicates something Ken Krenzel publisher earlier.

Both are inferior to the Gordon Double Lift.
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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 21st, 2018, 6:35 pm

Also nice when methods hide quietly behind actions that don't raise suspicions - more deceptive IMHO.
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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Leonard Hevia » August 21st, 2018, 7:20 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Leo, Derek Dingle made up his Stud Double just because he actually used the Stuart Gordon Double Lift and was told to keep it top secret. So his stud double was created and used only when he was performing for magicians. Additionally, the Dingle sleight actually duplicates something Ken Krenzel publisher earlier.

Both are inferior to the Gordon Double Lift.


I still like the Dingle/Krenzel stud double. It's a very natural looking double turnover, especially when the left thumb rides along to create the illusion of a push off. This double simulates the way laymen stud turn in card games. I believe Martin Nash had a similar double lift.

To wit there doesn't seem to be a complete published description of the Stuart Gordon Double Lift. I long ago stopped judging double lifts on the merits of public opinion. Vernon was critical of Daley's Strike Double in the Revelations videos. He said it didn't look natural. That won't stop me from using it. I collect double lifts.

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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby performer » August 21st, 2018, 8:34 pm

Vernon also criticised the Marlo double lift which is essentially the double lift described in the Paul Le Paul book which I think perfectly natural. I thought Vernon's reasoning all wrong.

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Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
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Re: The Jerx on Natural Double Lifts

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 21st, 2018, 8:40 pm

I learned the Stuart Gordon Double Lift first from Dingle, then from Jennings, and finally from Stuart himself. I published a full description of the handling in the Derek Dingle memorial issue of Genii so I could finally give a correct description of "Quick D-Way" as Derek actually did it.
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