Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

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Q. Kumber
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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Q. Kumber » May 14th, 2018, 1:23 pm

I have only met Stan Allen once, so I can't say I know him. Returning money in such a circumstance is indeed a good business decision, and maybe that is why he did it. But from what I have heard of Stan, he did it because it was the right thing to do.

I'd also refer people to Harry Lorayne's book, Before I Forget, where he describes the arduous journey he made just after 9/11, while NY city was still in lockdown, getting to Florida in a crowded train to keep a commitment he had made to a convention organiser.

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erdnasephile
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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby erdnasephile » May 14th, 2018, 1:26 pm

I hear you Richard, and I think your point about self-regulation is an good point. However, some magic people have taken money for projects (publications, for example), never completed the subscription run, and still went on to produce more projects. Whether people are buying them, I don't know, but in two examples I'm thinking of, they are still pretty well thought of.

Even "he who must not be named" kept slinging product after he took your (and other folks') money for the Braue Notebooks. (The question of what people thought of him, I will not address.)

In my experience, many magicians are an understanding bunch and perhaps also don't have the disposition, time, money, organization, or energy for a lawsuit. This may be what lets some of the non-fulfilling folks survive. Some component of hero worship or group identification may also come into play.

However, as stated above, the law is still largely untested in crowdfunding. As potential fraud grows (estimates are that about 9% of funded Kickstarter projects never are fulfilled https://www.kickstarter.com/fulfillment ), it seems likely that cutting and running is going to land some in more hot water than just losing their reputation.

On related topic, the article cited above: https://www.kickstarter.com/fulfillment also talks about the concept of "good failures." That is, in about 15-20% of cases, Kickstarter backers reported failures that were handled in a way by creators that left them "happy with the outcome of project. Only 13% received a refund or compensation, so that means some 7% or so received satisfaction in some other way, even if that didn't involve a refund, and I strongly think that must involve effective communication. IMHO, that is what is missing here (so far) with regards to the failed project we are discussing.

Leonard Hevia
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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Leonard Hevia » May 14th, 2018, 8:05 pm

Leonard Hevia wrote:
Richard Kaufman wrote:Leo, you cannot compare an advertised product such as the Braue Notebooks to a crowd-funded project which is known to have a chance of not happening. Read Tom's note just above.

Apples and oranges.


I did read Tom's post. I also read Erdnasephile' s link and prefer what Attorney General Bob Ferguson said:

"Washington State will not tolerate crowdfunding theft."


Corrected a misspelling.

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Ryan Matney
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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Ryan Matney » May 16th, 2018, 6:17 pm

Not here to jump on David Forrest. I don't know him and I didn't support this project.

My comment is about these weird definitions of thievery. If you take money from someone for a service or product promised and then you don't deliver it ever, then you have stolen that money. You are a thief. Period. That is the very definition.

It doesn't matter if they are paying for a service, or a product, or investing in your company. The deal is: Money for ______ , and if that doesn't happen, it is stolen. Now, you can have a great explanation and it might be your fault but in the end, you still fit the definition, if they never get their money back or the promise service. This idea that it has to be intentional in order to be theft is ridiculous.

I've made mistakes in the past and will no doubt continue to make mistakes in the future. All my mistakes have been misjudgments and things happening that I could not foresee or control. But, I've always eventually dealt with it and tried to make everyone happy.

I think Dave will come through eventually. I saw him say somewhere that he was waiting on one piece of the trick and the process was out of his control. It takes awhile to get things developed and made, with Kickstarter you are there for the whole process which can seem too long if you are used to just buying something and having it shipped immediately.
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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby jwjmcd » May 17th, 2018, 2:33 am

Can anyone help me understand an update Mr Forrest gave on the 4th October?

“All parts of Cubism Maestro are with us apart from one. The final component is the close up mat. “

I empathise with Mr Forrest if things have not gone to plan but an update that implies all the manufactured components are “with us” creates and expectation.

As we are now in May 9 months later and no further updates on the mata which backers were told were two weeks away in February.

It only creates more questions than answers.


As another poster has said If Dave is in financial difficulties he can keep my money too but I’d like an update.

I can’t be fairer than that? Can I?

I sincerely hope this works out and all is well for Dave.

performer
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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby performer » May 17th, 2018, 6:34 am

The worst thing you can do is hide from creditors or people you owe money to. It only makes things worse. Best to tell them up front that you screwed up and you will try hard to pay them back one day. It won't make them feel any better but at least it won't make them feel any worse. The moment you start to hide is the moment they get all agitated and unforgiving. And bad mouth you from here to kingdom come.

People can be quite kind. Not all of them of course but enough of them to make things less stressful for you. Enough of them will be flexible and understanding and a tiny few of them will say, "oh, forget about it" particularly if it is a small amount. After all quite a few of your creditors will have been in the same position themselves at some time in their lives.

If you are upfront they will merely think you are a lousy businessman. If you hide they will think you are a criminal. Always be upfront with people you owe money or merchandise to. Silence is the very worst thing you can do.

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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby pabloin us » May 21st, 2018, 8:48 am

Anyone had heard from Forrest and the 20000 pounds (money not weight) of merchandise he owes to the 200 backers?

Has anyone any idea to make sure Forrest understand that he at least must inform why he is doing what he is doing? Is any UK magician association that could intervene on behalf of the backers ? Some of the backers are from the UK and many more from EU.

Thank you

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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Tom Gilbert » May 21st, 2018, 9:09 pm

I know nothing about Kickstarter except I'd never participate. Could a group of you make complaints about this? Complaining on the Genii Fourm won't be of much help.

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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby pabloin us » July 9th, 2018, 9:48 am

As a quick status for whoever is interested. This project was fully funded (131% or 19000 pounds) in 3/17, was supposed to be shipped by 6/17, that, did not happened, other promised shipped dates were not accomplished either and more than a year later there is no shipping date announced. Communication from the creator is at the most, poor.
You can read more details and comments at the Kickstarter page for Cubism maestro.

All along not a great experience, which sadly brings the question on why crowdfunding or pre-payments for magic products that take away the financial risk of the project from the creators (low dollars, KS does not allow reimbursements, and legal actions are too expensive), the only incentive is an impact to their reputation for not delivering, but I am not sure it is enough in most cases.

Personally going forward I will refrain for pre-payments and Kickstarter magic projects and will get the products from a reputable dealer with products on hand. In the long run is cheaper and less stressful.
Caveat: Most of the cards deck (only one bad experience) in KS came through.

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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Brian Douglas » July 9th, 2018, 1:18 pm

They deleted the thread over on the big green with all the complaints.

From my understanding, Kickstarter is a donation site which may offer kickbacks if a project is met. I've donated before but never to something that offered a kickback. Life sometimes gets in the way, but I would have taken a equity loan out and repaid backers until I got myself back together; but that is me.

I think what sets this situation aside is that the story keeps changing. I hope it works out in the end.

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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby jwjmcd » July 9th, 2018, 1:45 pm

I think for me - a backer- it’s sad to see how this is working out. It has put me off prepayment and crowdfunding projects in the future. I wish Dave all the best.

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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby pabloin us » July 28th, 2018, 3:59 pm

As of today, no product was received, nor Forrest provided a shipping day or a meaningful reason for the delay. I hope his behavior and attitude is taking into account for the magic community when dealing with him, as customers, suppliers or peers.

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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Jim Riser » August 1st, 2018, 5:23 pm

I just ran across this thread last night and found it interesting for a number of reasons.

The idea of a dice chop cup is certainly not new. The method of manufacture is not new. The various dice offered are not new. What can be done with the various dice is not new. So what is new ... apparently only the box to store the items.

I do not know Dave Forrest but it appears that he got in over his head. Mr. Forrest has no record of he himself making things, so I will assume that everything might have been farmed out. This can be very risky from a business standpoint. Whoever was supplying the dice cups to be altered may not have been able to meet the quantities required. To complicate things this supplier might have been farming out too. This snowballs with each operation. The dice supplier, the dice modifier, magnet supplier, cup lining supplier, etc. If you are not doing all of the actual work yourself, you can really run into problems. Several of us could have helped Mr. Forrest out of the hole he dug himself into; but at this late date I doubt if anyone would want to work with him. The only difficult part of this project was the vinyl storage box. Everything else is easy and readily available. This box is one expensive snag.

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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Bob Farmer » August 2nd, 2018, 8:59 am

The problem with a Dice Chop Cup is the noise the die makes when, dislodged from the magnet, it drops to the working surface, so I never saw the advantage.

Kirk's Kup (put out by Ken Allen in the 1960s)uses dice, doesn't use a magnet and features a great routine that is sort of Chop Cup-like. Also, El Duco put out Die Cupo which was also magnet-less and used a die. It used an idea of Franklin Taylor's from Bruce Elliott's Classic Secrets of Magic.

However, my favourite Chop Cup routine that does not use a magnet is Roy Cottee's Dixie Cuppa Magic (Genii, February 2005. Vol. 68; No. 2.). This is a great routine that has been overlooked and ignored--but it is superior to a lot of other routines. I used it for years.

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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Jim Riser » August 6th, 2018, 9:12 pm

Bob,
There are several advantages to using a dice cup and dice. In some circles working with dice is considered much more MANLY than playing with little sweater covered spheres. One would not want to appear to be a wimp when performing. Virtually everyone from kids to adults are familiar with dice while the little sweater covered things are unfamiliar. A performance pad will take care of the noise problem. Having made more than my share of dice and winterized spheres along with the associated cups, I appreciate both.

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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Bob Farmer » August 7th, 2018, 8:58 am

Jim:

I never used the non-manly orbs as I was of the same mind as you on this: I used rolled up bills. Another option: aluminum foil balls.

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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby pabloin us » August 7th, 2018, 10:06 am

Jim, thank you for your comments, Forrest showed some pictures with dice and cups and boxes and so on, unless they were all fake he has/had the props. My take is he used the shipping money (most of the backers were outside of the UK, therefore substantial) for something else, ice cream, medicine, others, which at the end is irrelevant and the fact remains. No product and no meaningful communication either.

Bob, thank you for your comments about the product, however while they would be interesting at the beginning of the thread or if the product would have been delivered, we don't have the product so your comments are sadly not useful at this time.

The importance of this thread at this time is to make the Genii community aware of what happened with one member that took $24K from 200 backers and so far provided nothing, not even a credible reason. Maybe somebody knows this person (I asked in the past and looked like that nobody know the guy, even so he performed at the magic castle, and produced DVDs with known magicians, interesting dynamic.... ) and could influence in getting him to reply to us.

Thank you

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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 7th, 2018, 1:10 pm

I've had some brief contact with Dave Forrest. He's been having a rough patch for the past year. I can't say more than that, other than to add that he is not engaged in some nefarious plot.
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Bob Farmer
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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Bob Farmer » August 7th, 2018, 1:38 pm

I'll try to limit my comments to only things useful in future. Thank you for the admonition.

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Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby pabloin us » August 8th, 2018, 6:29 pm

Richard, thank you very much for reaching up to Forrest and the information, I hope you are right, but any hard patch should not be an excuse for the lack of meaningful explanation to all of us. The explanations we have gotten in KS sound made up as he goes, besides treating us, as being harsh to him. (ex.: Pitch-fork wielders)

Bob Farmer, my apologies to you, English is my second language and most likely my comment sounded admonishing while it was not my intention at all.
I appreciate your comments and enjoy your humor, I value your products and the valuable experience and expertise that you provide freely to the community (and me). Everything you said is useful, please disregard my previous comment.

Because nothing is working with Forrest, and there are 200 people with no product or information, my intention is to keep a thread publicly available here and at TMC, where Forrest lack of ownership and willingness to work with his "investors" is kept current, factual and visible for everybody. I was afraid that your comments on the actual work of the props (very useful) could deviate the focus of the problem. I hope I am more clear now and you could accept my apologies.


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