Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Discuss the latest news and rumors in the magic world.
User avatar
Q. Kumber
Posts: 1572
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Manchester, England

Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Q. Kumber » May 14th, 2018, 1:23 pm

I have only met Stan Allen once, so I can't say I know him. Returning money in such a circumstance is indeed a good business decision, and maybe that is why he did it. But from what I have heard of Stan, he did it because it was the right thing to do.

I'd also refer people to Harry Lorayne's book, Before I Forget, where he describes the arduous journey he made just after 9/11, while NY city was still in lockdown, getting to Florida in a crowded train to keep a commitment he had made to a convention organiser.

User avatar
erdnasephile
Posts: 3839
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm

Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby erdnasephile » May 14th, 2018, 1:26 pm

I hear you Richard, and I think your point about self-regulation is an good point. However, some magic people have taken money for projects (publications, for example), never completed the subscription run, and still went on to produce more projects. Whether people are buying them, I don't know, but in two examples I'm thinking of, they are still pretty well thought of.

Even "he who must not be named" kept slinging product after he took your (and other folks') money for the Braue Notebooks. (The question of what people thought of him, I will not address.)

In my experience, many magicians are an understanding bunch and perhaps also don't have the disposition, time, money, organization, or energy for a lawsuit. This may be what lets some of the non-fulfilling folks survive. Some component of hero worship or group identification may also come into play.

However, as stated above, the law is still largely untested in crowdfunding. As potential fraud grows (estimates are that about 9% of funded Kickstarter projects never are fulfilled https://www.kickstarter.com/fulfillment ), it seems likely that cutting and running is going to land some in more hot water than just losing their reputation.

On related topic, the article cited above: https://www.kickstarter.com/fulfillment also talks about the concept of "good failures." That is, in about 15-20% of cases, Kickstarter backers reported failures that were handled in a way by creators that left them "happy with the outcome of project. Only 13% received a refund or compensation, so that means some 7% or so received satisfaction in some other way, even if that didn't involve a refund, and I strongly think that must involve effective communication. IMHO, that is what is missing here (so far) with regards to the failed project we are discussing.

Leonard Hevia
Posts: 1777
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Dai Vernon, Frank Garcia, Slydini, Houdini,
Location: Gaithersburg, Md.

Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Leonard Hevia » May 14th, 2018, 8:05 pm

Leonard Hevia wrote:
Richard Kaufman wrote:Leo, you cannot compare an advertised product such as the Braue Notebooks to a crowd-funded project which is known to have a chance of not happening. Read Tom's note just above.

Apples and oranges.


I did read Tom's post. I also read Erdnasephile' s link and prefer what Attorney General Bob Ferguson said:

"Washington State will not tolerate crowdfunding theft."


Corrected a misspelling.

User avatar
Ryan Matney
Posts: 929
Joined: January 18th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Abingdon, Va
Contact:

Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Ryan Matney » May 16th, 2018, 6:17 pm

Not here to jump on David Forrest. I don't know him and I didn't support this project.

My comment is about these weird definitions of thievery. If you take money from someone for a service or product promised and then you don't deliver it ever, then you have stolen that money. You are a thief. Period. That is the very definition.

It doesn't matter if they are paying for a service, or a product, or investing in your company. The deal is: Money for ______ , and if that doesn't happen, it is stolen. Now, you can have a great explanation and it might be your fault but in the end, you still fit the definition, if they never get their money back or the promise service. This idea that it has to be intentional in order to be theft is ridiculous.

I've made mistakes in the past and will no doubt continue to make mistakes in the future. All my mistakes have been misjudgments and things happening that I could not foresee or control. But, I've always eventually dealt with it and tried to make everyone happy.

I think Dave will come through eventually. I saw him say somewhere that he was waiting on one piece of the trick and the process was out of his control. It takes awhile to get things developed and made, with Kickstarter you are there for the whole process which can seem too long if you are used to just buying something and having it shipped immediately.
Distilled- 100% Pure Self-Working Card Magic - Available now at http://www.ryanmatneymagic.com

jwjmcd
Posts: 15
Joined: June 12th, 2016, 9:51 am

Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby jwjmcd » May 17th, 2018, 2:33 am

Can anyone help me understand an update Mr Forrest gave on the 4th October?

“All parts of Cubism Maestro are with us apart from one. The final component is the close up mat. “

I empathise with Mr Forrest if things have not gone to plan but an update that implies all the manufactured components are “with us” creates and expectation.

As we are now in May 9 months later and no further updates on the mata which backers were told were two weeks away in February.

It only creates more questions than answers.


As another poster has said If Dave is in financial difficulties he can keep my money too but I’d like an update.

I can’t be fairer than that? Can I?

I sincerely hope this works out and all is well for Dave.

performer
Posts: 2894
Joined: August 7th, 2015, 10:35 pm

Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby performer » May 17th, 2018, 6:34 am

The worst thing you can do is hide from creditors or people you owe money to. It only makes things worse. Best to tell them up front that you screwed up and you will try hard to pay them back one day. It won't make them feel any better but at least it won't make them feel any worse. The moment you start to hide is the moment they get all agitated and unforgiving. And bad mouth you from here to kingdom come.

People can be quite kind. Not all of them of course but enough of them to make things less stressful for you. Enough of them will be flexible and understanding and a tiny few of them will say, "oh, forget about it" particularly if it is a small amount. After all quite a few of your creditors will have been in the same position themselves at some time in their lives.

If you are upfront they will merely think you are a lousy businessman. If you hide they will think you are a criminal. Always be upfront with people you owe money or merchandise to. Silence is the very worst thing you can do.

pabloin us
Posts: 29
Joined: January 29th, 2010, 2:57 pm

Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby pabloin us » May 21st, 2018, 8:48 am

Anyone had heard from Forrest and the 20000 pounds (money not weight) of merchandise he owes to the 200 backers?

Has anyone any idea to make sure Forrest understand that he at least must inform why he is doing what he is doing? Is any UK magician association that could intervene on behalf of the backers ? Some of the backers are from the UK and many more from EU.

Thank you

Tom Gilbert
Posts: 719
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: NH
Contact:

Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Tom Gilbert » May 21st, 2018, 9:09 pm

I know nothing about Kickstarter except I'd never participate. Could a group of you make complaints about this? Complaining on the Genii Fourm won't be of much help.

pabloin us
Posts: 29
Joined: January 29th, 2010, 2:57 pm

Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby pabloin us » July 9th, 2018, 9:48 am

As a quick status for whoever is interested. This project was fully funded (131% or 19000 pounds) in 3/17, was supposed to be shipped by 6/17, that, did not happened, other promised shipped dates were not accomplished either and more than a year later there is no shipping date announced. Communication from the creator is at the most, poor.
You can read more details and comments at the Kickstarter page for Cubism maestro.

All along not a great experience, which sadly brings the question on why crowdfunding or pre-payments for magic products that take away the financial risk of the project from the creators (low dollars, KS does not allow reimbursements, and legal actions are too expensive), the only incentive is an impact to their reputation for not delivering, but I am not sure it is enough in most cases.

Personally going forward I will refrain for pre-payments and Kickstarter magic projects and will get the products from a reputable dealer with products on hand. In the long run is cheaper and less stressful.
Caveat: Most of the cards deck (only one bad experience) in KS came through.

User avatar
Brian Douglas
Posts: 52
Joined: November 19th, 2016, 10:34 am
Favorite Magician: Max Maven
Location: Middle East
Contact:

Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Brian Douglas » July 9th, 2018, 1:18 pm

They deleted the thread over on the big green with all the complaints.

From my understanding, Kickstarter is a donation site which may offer kickbacks if a project is met. I've donated before but never to something that offered a kickback. Life sometimes gets in the way, but I would have taken a equity loan out and repaid backers until I got myself back together; but that is me.

I think what sets this situation aside is that the story keeps changing. I hope it works out in the end.

jwjmcd
Posts: 15
Joined: June 12th, 2016, 9:51 am

Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby jwjmcd » July 9th, 2018, 1:45 pm

I think for me - a backer- it’s sad to see how this is working out. It has put me off prepayment and crowdfunding projects in the future. I wish Dave all the best.

pabloin us
Posts: 29
Joined: January 29th, 2010, 2:57 pm

Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby pabloin us » July 28th, 2018, 3:59 pm

As of today, no product was received, nor Forrest provided a shipping day or a meaningful reason for the delay. I hope his behavior and attitude is taking into account for the magic community when dealing with him, as customers, suppliers or peers.

Jim Riser
Posts: 1085
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Tucson, AZ

Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Jim Riser » August 1st, 2018, 5:23 pm

I just ran across this thread last night and found it interesting for a number of reasons.

The idea of a dice chop cup is certainly not new. The method of manufacture is not new. The various dice offered are not new. What can be done with the various dice is not new. So what is new ... apparently only the box to store the items.

I do not know Dave Forrest but it appears that he got in over his head. Mr. Forrest has no record of he himself making things, so I will assume that everything might have been farmed out. This can be very risky from a business standpoint. Whoever was supplying the dice cups to be altered may not have been able to meet the quantities required. To complicate things this supplier might have been farming out too. This snowballs with each operation. The dice supplier, the dice modifier, magnet supplier, cup lining supplier, etc. If you are not doing all of the actual work yourself, you can really run into problems. Several of us could have helped Mr. Forrest out of the hole he dug himself into; but at this late date I doubt if anyone would want to work with him. The only difficult part of this project was the vinyl storage box. Everything else is easy and readily available. This box is one expensive snag.

Bob Farmer
Posts: 2299
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Short card above selection.

Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Bob Farmer » August 2nd, 2018, 8:59 am

The problem with a Dice Chop Cup is the noise the die makes when, dislodged from the magnet, it drops to the working surface, so I never saw the advantage.

Kirk's Kup (put out by Ken Allen in the 1960s)uses dice, doesn't use a magnet and features a great routine that is sort of Chop Cup-like. Also, El Duco put out Die Cupo which was also magnet-less and used a die. It used an idea of Franklin Taylor's from Bruce Elliott's Classic Secrets of Magic.

However, my favourite Chop Cup routine that does not use a magnet is Roy Cottee's Dixie Cuppa Magic (Genii, February 2005. Vol. 68; No. 2.). This is a great routine that has been overlooked and ignored--but it is superior to a lot of other routines. I used it for years.

Jim Riser
Posts: 1085
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Tucson, AZ

Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Jim Riser » August 6th, 2018, 9:12 pm

Bob,
There are several advantages to using a dice cup and dice. In some circles working with dice is considered much more MANLY than playing with little sweater covered spheres. One would not want to appear to be a wimp when performing. Virtually everyone from kids to adults are familiar with dice while the little sweater covered things are unfamiliar. A performance pad will take care of the noise problem. Having made more than my share of dice and winterized spheres along with the associated cups, I appreciate both.

Bob Farmer
Posts: 2299
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Short card above selection.

Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Bob Farmer » August 7th, 2018, 8:58 am

Jim:

I never used the non-manly orbs as I was of the same mind as you on this: I used rolled up bills. Another option: aluminum foil balls.

pabloin us
Posts: 29
Joined: January 29th, 2010, 2:57 pm

Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby pabloin us » August 7th, 2018, 10:06 am

Jim, thank you for your comments, Forrest showed some pictures with dice and cups and boxes and so on, unless they were all fake he has/had the props. My take is he used the shipping money (most of the backers were outside of the UK, therefore substantial) for something else, ice cream, medicine, others, which at the end is irrelevant and the fact remains. No product and no meaningful communication either.

Bob, thank you for your comments about the product, however while they would be interesting at the beginning of the thread or if the product would have been delivered, we don't have the product so your comments are sadly not useful at this time.

The importance of this thread at this time is to make the Genii community aware of what happened with one member that took $24K from 200 backers and so far provided nothing, not even a credible reason. Maybe somebody knows this person (I asked in the past and looked like that nobody know the guy, even so he performed at the magic castle, and produced DVDs with known magicians, interesting dynamic.... ) and could influence in getting him to reply to us.

Thank you

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 24449
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 7th, 2018, 1:10 pm

I've had some brief contact with Dave Forrest. He's been having a rough patch for the past year. I can't say more than that, other than to add that he is not engaged in some nefarious plot.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

Bob Farmer
Posts: 2299
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Short card above selection.

Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Bob Farmer » August 7th, 2018, 1:38 pm

I'll try to limit my comments to only things useful in future. Thank you for the admonition.

pabloin us
Posts: 29
Joined: January 29th, 2010, 2:57 pm

Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby pabloin us » August 8th, 2018, 6:29 pm

Richard, thank you very much for reaching up to Forrest and the information, I hope you are right, but any hard patch should not be an excuse for the lack of meaningful explanation to all of us. The explanations we have gotten in KS sound made up as he goes, besides treating us, as being harsh to him. (ex.: Pitch-fork wielders)

Bob Farmer, my apologies to you, English is my second language and most likely my comment sounded admonishing while it was not my intention at all.
I appreciate your comments and enjoy your humor, I value your products and the valuable experience and expertise that you provide freely to the community (and me). Everything you said is useful, please disregard my previous comment.

Because nothing is working with Forrest, and there are 200 people with no product or information, my intention is to keep a thread publicly available here and at TMC, where Forrest lack of ownership and willingness to work with his "investors" is kept current, factual and visible for everybody. I was afraid that your comments on the actual work of the props (very useful) could deviate the focus of the problem. I hope I am more clear now and you could accept my apologies.

pabloin us
Posts: 29
Joined: January 29th, 2010, 2:57 pm

Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby pabloin us » September 1st, 2018, 10:39 am

Quick update, Forrest has just put an update in KS telling the backers that he will start shipping the product, very good news and looking forward to receive the props.

User avatar
Joe Naud
Posts: 298
Joined: March 11th, 2008, 10:27 pm
Favorite Magician: Vernon, Tamariz, Carney, DaOrtiz, Mac King
Location: Southern California

Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Joe Naud » September 1st, 2018, 1:59 pm

As soon as I arrives I’ll believe it.

Joe

pabloin us
Posts: 29
Joined: January 29th, 2010, 2:57 pm

Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby pabloin us » September 6th, 2018, 12:17 pm

Quick update, 2 backers received the tricks, one comment was that the quality was very good and the gimmicked dice very well done.
It looks promising.

pabloin us
Posts: 29
Joined: January 29th, 2010, 2:57 pm

Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby pabloin us » October 25th, 2018, 4:04 pm

Not sure if anybody in the forum is one of the backers of this project ( I am) or it is slightly interested in what is going on, in any case here is the latest update as we know.
Forrest published an update on September 2nd indicating that he has initiated the shipping. Surveys to update addresses were received from KS (normal process).
So far we know of 3 people, all in the UK that received their props and a retail store Merlin's ... also in the UK that received several and put them for sale in their website, this happened mid September or so, since then, nobody else that we are aware received the props, nor Forrest update KS or anyone in particular, I tried to email him asking for an update on when he was planning to complete all the shipments, his response was "no more updates unless something change and that I will receive mine when it ships", basically "go pound sand"

I have dealt a lot with dealers, and individuals with different outcomes but this kind of personal treatment, never. Very sad...

Stever Cobb
Posts: 27
Joined: October 21st, 2015, 12:08 pm
Favorite Magician: John Calvert

Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Stever Cobb » October 26th, 2018, 8:08 pm

Yes, I invested in this project as well. His last post a couple months ago, said he was shipping everything except the mats right? And now he is dribbling them out to who he thinks is worthy!
I did learn something from this exercise in regards to Kickstarter. As long as the seller communicates via e-mail within x amount of time; there is pretty much nothing you can do as an investor in the project to get a refund from the credit card company. I guess that's the risk we
understood on page 52 of the Kickstarter terms and conditions.

And now its almost worse, because they are starting to show up in the marketplace for who again?

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 24449
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Richard Kaufman » October 27th, 2018, 9:43 am

You cannot make the assumption that he is shipping them to "those he thinks are worthy." Don't mindread.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

User avatar
Joe Naud
Posts: 298
Joined: March 11th, 2008, 10:27 pm
Favorite Magician: Vernon, Tamariz, Carney, DaOrtiz, Mac King
Location: Southern California

Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Joe Naud » October 27th, 2018, 12:28 pm

To say he is shipping at all is joke. He took 20,000 pounds from over 200 backers. I don’t really know what to call this other than theft. I get there is a risk to this but how about an apology at least? $90 wont break me but at least have the decency to admit you screwed up and that chances are you will never see what you ordered instead of leading us all on over and over and over again. He obviously needs the money more than I do and I truly hope his circumstances improve.

Peace, Joe

User avatar
Brad Jeffers
Posts: 896
Joined: April 11th, 2008, 5:52 pm
Location: Savannah, GA

Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Brad Jeffers » October 27th, 2018, 2:18 pm

Image

pabloin us
Posts: 29
Joined: January 29th, 2010, 2:57 pm

Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby pabloin us » October 28th, 2018, 10:14 am

To complement Richard's comment, Forrest on 9/2 clearly said that his shipping practice will not be influenced by the behavior/friendship of the backers.
Of course there must be some type of criteria, and so far the 5 he shipped were in the UK, one person that received the props is a retailer, that while he has the same right than me to receive his props, the facts is that some of the props he received are sitting in inventory, while there are people waiting for theirs, this is not the retailer fault but one more unwise action from Forrest.

Pablo

pabloin us
Posts: 29
Joined: January 29th, 2010, 2:57 pm

Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby pabloin us » November 6th, 2018, 11:15 am

We are now over 2 months without any update from Forrest and with 5 backers that only received their products (one as I mentioned is a retailer that has the product in stock). I have emailed Forrest asking for an estimated completion date with no availability.

If anybody in the Forum has any contact with this person, I would appreciate if you let him know that an update will be greatly appreciated.

pabloin us
Posts: 29
Joined: January 29th, 2010, 2:57 pm

Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby pabloin us » November 6th, 2018, 10:06 pm

Forrest has just put an update in KS indicating he continues shipping boxes. This is good of course, he needs to keep the pace and hopefully we will have the product in our hands

pabloin us
Posts: 29
Joined: January 29th, 2010, 2:57 pm

Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby pabloin us » December 2nd, 2018, 3:58 pm

Quick update: Since Forrest last update of 11/6, no new shipments were made, the only 5 we know about it, not even mine that is the one on the pic of his Update 25 of 11/6.

I sent him email asking for update or reasons for the new delay, but no responses. I thought he had changed his behavior, but I was wrong.

Syd
Posts: 128
Joined: February 29th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Tennessee

Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Syd » December 2nd, 2018, 4:09 pm

There should be some explanation. We don’t need details of his personal life but yes, we are owed some kind of communication because we paid money for it, Todd Carr did the same thing with his Impromptu book. He did ultimately deliver but I will never preorder anything from the Miracle Factory. With Impromptu is was YEARS. Richard's book is a little late but he told us what was going on and it’s less than a month late. I can’t imagine if he really has everything you could pay a retiree or a college kid minimum wage and get them packaged and ready to ship. At this point it is merely ludicrous.
Syd

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 24449
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Richard Kaufman » December 2nd, 2018, 7:05 pm

My general policy since 1987 has been to not advertise a book for sale until it is at the printer. At that point it would take about eight weeks for shipping to begin.

With DeLand (and Tenyoism), there are other things to contend with: the sea, customs, and the manufacture of playing cards. All three are unpredictable.

These large projects always take longer than we expect.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

Syd
Posts: 128
Joined: February 29th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Tennessee

Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby Syd » December 2nd, 2018, 7:09 pm

Agreed Richard, and you’ve always been upfront. Todd Karr took over a decade and whether or not backers will ever receive our rewards remains to be seen.
Syd

pabloin us
Posts: 29
Joined: January 29th, 2010, 2:57 pm

Re: Worthwhile Kickstarter Campaign for Great Chop Cup Set Done with Dice Cups and Dice

Postby pabloin us » December 9th, 2018, 8:53 am

One month since last update where Forrest said he was shipping and even showed a pic of my box.
Nobody received anything, I did no receive the package with my name and no update has been published, clearly he lied to us.
Sadly we let time ran out the period for a financial complaint with the C. C companies.


Return to “Buzz”