Red Hot Mamma Trick

[Guest]

I have always wondered why the Chicago Opener was sometimes called Red Hot Mamma.
I imagine it has something to do with an original presentation but I hardly see how it was used.
Can someone describe the plot where the term Red Hot Mamma was used?

[Guest]

I believe that the card turns Red due to the lady who selected it being a "Red Hot Momma", that is, a very attractive woman.

[Steve Bryant]

In the excellent series Jim Ryan Close-Up (specifically, Volume 2: Entertaining Card Quickies) by Phil Willmarth is the trick Al Leech's Red Hot Mama. To quote from part of the effect description:

A card from a blue deck is fairly chosen, remembered and replaced. Jim now turns to a female spectator and has her tap the deck. "Do you know what happens when a red hot mama does that?" he asks. Of course she doesn't, so Jim slowly spreads through the backup deck and shows that one card is red.

And so on. Jim Ryan was a lovable old Irish gent who talked like that and it therefore didn't sound silly. I've never been a great fan of the line or, for deeper reasons, the trick, but wow, I was a huge fan of Jim Ryan. I highly recommend this set of books, which was published as a set of four softbound large-format booklets (and deserve to be compiled into a hardbound classic).

[Jim Maloney_dup1]

Originally posted by Steve Bryant:
I've never been a great fan of ... the trick...

Ok, you've got me intrigued -- would you be interested in elaborating? I'm curious to hear your thoughts on it.

-Jim

[Steve Bryant]

As Richard might say, "Ah hahahahahahahahaha."

You are asking me to commit blasphemy? A lot of magicians are deeply in love with this trick.

So why not me?

First, it's too complicated. I subscribe (most of the time) to the idea that a trick should be easily describable in one brief sentence. He found my card in his wallet or he stuck it to the ceiling or it simply rose from the deck. (All, by the way, superior effects.) If you would stop me on the street and ask me to describe Chicago Opener, I would have to think hard for a minute or two to remember just how it goes. Not only is it too complicated in general, but especially too complicated to use as an opener, as many magicians do.

Second, it uses a stranger card, and it eventually becomes obvious to even the lamest spectator that it uses a stranger card. (If you perform for specs who think the card REALLY turned red, like litmus paper, then so be it. I don't perform for such people.) The problem with the stranger card is multiple:

1. The trick is often used as an opener for an "impromptu" set (just you and a deck of cards), and this immediately tips that you were set up in advance. I'd rather be able to get across the idea that it's just me and some skill or me and my magical powers, not me and an extra gimmick.

2. A stranger card throws suspicion on the rest of the cards.

3. It really isn't impromptu. Someone can't hand you a deck and say, "Do that trick where you ..."
(Of course, they aren't likely to do that as it would take them a paragraph to describe it and they would have to have considered it the best thing you do to be persuaded to request a repeat.)

Third, I perform for some really bright friends (some are Caltech grads and PhDs, and some are ordinary Joes who are brilliant card players), and if they think about this one at all, they quickly realize how I did it. It sort of gets into the Too Perfect Theory, but I don't want to start that crap all over again.

Fourth, and for me this was the clincher (I was drawn to the effect as were most other magicians, despite my qualms above), it just doesn't get the reaction from spectators that I want a card trick to get. The effect is just a tad lame compared to other card tricks I can do or you can do. (I have also never seen anyone else get the reaction with it that I'd like a trick to get.) Life is just too short for so-so magic.

So, just my opinion. I know this trick is VERY popular with magicians, and, if you are having fun with it, then keep on doing so. Jim Ryan is one of the top five close-up entertainers I've ever seen, and HE used it. And Whit Haydn uses it. But ... Jim Ryan and Whit Haydn could make the 21-card trick entertaining. Even they, I think, could find stronger material.

[Jim Maloney_dup1]

Thanks Steve. I suppose next you're going to tell me that Vernon was nothing but a hack?

Seriously though, I always find it interesting to see why people like or don't like certain tricks, especially when their opinion differs from most.

Thanks,
Jim

[Guest]

Thank you Bill, Steve,
Now I see what the title Red Hot Mamma is all about.
I first imagine that it was the card changing its color back that was the Red Hot Mamma. So I had no idea of the kind of presentation it was.
Thank you again for your help.

[Guest]

Well, I'm with Steve B on this one -- I never got the response from Chicago Opener / Red Hot Mama that I felt such a revered trick deserved, and I have to say that I've tried many versions and presentational approaches to it. Maybe it works better for some magicians than others.

Every couple of years or so I dig it out and do it, just to see if I can make it fly. I don't know why, it just gets a lukewarm reaction, compared to other tricks I do. Maybe it is the stranger card, caussing spekkies to assume a trick deck of some kind; perhaps the plot is dificult to follow. I'm very interested in this discussion, as I would like to understand -- for intellectual reasons if nothing else -- why this trick gets a "hmmm," instead of a "WOW."

John R

[Guest]

Maybe I shouldn't tip this and it should stay buried but have you guys seen Mike Close's version in Closely Guarded Secrets, The Dumbest Casino in the World. Mike sets out to solve some of the issues mentioned by Steve. I am working on it and have changed Mike's personal Las-vegas oriented patter to suit my needs, I am currently using a WPT bordered playing card to capitalise on the whole Poker thing, well worth a look!

[Guest]

Originally posted by Steve Bryant:


So, just my opinion. I know this trick is VERY popular with magicians, and, if you are having fun with it, then keep on doing so. Jim Ryan is one of the top five close-up entertainers I've ever seen, and HE used it. And Whit Haydn uses it. But ... Jim Ryan and Whit Haydn could make the 21-card trick entertaining. Even they, I think, could find stronger material.

Steve:

I couldn't agree with you more about Jim Ryan. His books are overlooked gems. I was lucky enough to have Jim as a good friend and mentor the last part of his life. You get a sense of how he could get away with the "Red Hot Mamma" presentation when you remember his moniker "Jim Ryan, The Darling of the Geritol Set". With a twinkle in his eye as he delivered his lines and performed his strong magic his audiences always ended up loving the time he spent with them. He was also a great generous guy and I miss him to this day.

I've used Red Hot Mamma on and off over the years (with a different presentation) and have always gotten strong reactions from it.

[Guest]

I have to speak for the "pro" side here. Red Hot Mama has always been a WOW effect for me, as an opener usually--and I note all the Stranger Card fears but they don't worry me. I do something else if I don't have a stranger.

After using the original Al Leech version I went to the Jim Ryan presentation with wonderful results.However the patter is a bit dated today so a couple of years ago I gilded the lily even more with some bits from Whit Haydn's terrific routine. I, too, was pleased to have met Jim on several visits of mine to the USA and he is there with Eddie Fechter and Vernon for me.

BTW,the original Al Leech mss. is in my compilation. A Last Look at Leech.

The Cairn Press

[Guest]

I am always set to do this trick and I get great reactions with it. Now, I don't use anyone's version that I know of, I use my own, and I think both phases are streamlined. As far as an opener, it would be better if it was quicker, so I don't know if it should be used there or not. As far as the stranger card, the whole point of the effect is that the card changes, once to red and then the red card changes (at least in the version I do). This is the magic, why do you assume that they think there must have been an extra card anymore than they think that you must have palmed that card into the wallet. I think it is just worrying. Anyway, the less that do it the better I say.

[Guest]

In his review of my book "The King Has Left the Building...With Amnesia", Bill Duncan stated:

The Rule Of Three twice this year Ive seen variations on the old Chicago Opener (Red Hot Mama) which I actually find interesting. This is the other one. Ill just say that unlike Closes story approach, this is a demonstration of perception. An observation test but not quite so annoyingly framed.

Jeff Pierce

[Guest]

I Do like Jeff's version, and Mike Close's too.

And having finally gotten to see Whit Hayden's verion (Steve Mayhew showed it to me) I can highly recommend that handling as well.

Not a big fan of the original presentation, but then I don't work bars...

[Guest]

Whit's routine is excellent, and shows that he performed it in the real world hundreds of times. he anticipates everything that can go wrong, either by accident or audience malice.

This kind of reminds me of the color changing deck. I wanted to make absolutely clear that the deck wasn't gaffed, so I would leave the transformed with the people I did it for. Not practical for restaurant table-hopping, unless you're rich, but for higher-end corporate or private venues it's not bad. My rationale was that the deck would do me no good; as I only worked with blue backed cards. A superstition of mine.

Perhaps leaving the "stranger" in Red Hot Mama with the audience as a souvenier might be good. I can see them examining that card from every angle trying to pierce the secret!

John R
May dig it out and try it again.

[Guest]

Pursuant to this thread, i was thinkin about this trick again for the firat time in years, and here is the current fermentation from the ideas presented here:

You can do this at any time during your set if you do the following. Assuming you work with a blue-backed deck, have a supply of red backed cards on you-- again assuming you're doing a walk around gig and will repeat it many times. When you're ready, openly introduce the red card and have the audience member sign the back, without ever showing the face of the card. I would make a point of this -- that you know what it is, but the spekkie does not.

Cut it into the deck, actually placing the signed stranger and its duplicate for your favorite RH Mama routine. For this, I think I would use Gary Kurtz's mental apprach from his handling of RH Mama.

So now, after the double transformation, you can leave the card with them, with their signature, and move on.

I think if you place this somewhere in your set other than the opener, people will get used to the nature of your deck, and Trick Cards won't enter the equation. After all, you openly introduce what's obviously a stranger card; there's no initiation of "where did that come from, and what the hell is it?" thought processes.

I tend to like this appraoch, and I think I'll give it a shot during my next walk around gig. Any thoughts on this? Am I a moron (never mind what my wife and cat tell you)?

John R

[Philippe Billot]

At the beginning, in 1950, Ireland sold Leech's trick under the name "A Hot Card Trick".

Who can tell me why its name change for Red Hot Mama or Chicago Opener ?

[Guest]

Harry Lorayne's 'Color Quickie' from Personal Secrets is my preference. You openly place a red card onto a blue deck and the spectator selects the blue card that matches that red card. Another card is selected and the red card changes to match 'that' card. Everything is done openly and at the end, simply place the lone red card back into its red deck. Clean!

[Guest]

Hi Philippe,
I think the name changed because the presentation had changed from the original Al Leech's effect.
A Hot Card Trick was about the possibility to change the back of a card and then the face of this same card through the heat of one's breath.
Red Hot Mama Card Trick was about the fact that when a Red Hot Mama touches a card, this card turns red.
Chicago Opener is the name given by Frank Garcia in Million Dollar Card Secrets to an other version of Al Leech's effect that Frank Everhardt used to perform as an opener at the Ivanoe in Chicago. Visibly, Mr Garcia did not know about the Al Leech's effect.

[Philippe Billot]

Merci Philippe

Do you know where is described the other version of Leech regarding Chicago Opener ?

[Guest]

Sorry Philippe.
I think that I was not clear enough in my last message.
A Hot Card Trick is the only version by Leech.
Red Hot Mama is a variation by Jim Ryan.
Chicago Opener is a variation by Frank Everhardt.

[Philippe Billot]

OK, I get it now !!!!

[Guest]

I must have missed this thread when it first started. I always get great results with this effect. The problem with Red Hot Momma, the original handling is not good. The method for the first selection is much cleaner then the second, when the audience "knows" what is going to happen.

If the effect is streamlined, so the first selection looks the same as the second selection. I have 2 versions, one the typical "impromptu" handling, and one which uses a gaffed-deck. If I was using the gaffed deck it would be only one of a few effects.

I think people who don't like the trick are just stuck on the original handling, they should come up with a better handling, the premise is great.

[Guest]

Hey y' all,
I usually do the Sankey version where you introduce a stranger card and written on the back is "do not touch this card". Opening line line "Whos pretty good at following directions?". You kinda see where it goes from here; it differs a bit from the original routining, though. The effect is called "Not this card!" and can be found on "Front Row Sankey". Recommended if you like the original effect.

[Guest]

I'm reasonably certain Frank Garcia knew exactly where the trick came from, just as he knew exactly where the purloined parts of "MacDonald's $100 Ace Trick" came from. He was roundly criticized because of the lack of credits in his book.

[Philippe Billot]

Leech's ORIGINAL trick can be found in A Last Look at Leech (2004), a booklet produced by Anthony Brahams. (The Cairn Press)

This booklet is a compilation of tricks which were not in Leech's books.

[Richard Kaufman]

There are several unpublished handlings by Vernon, and I have a killer handling from Jennings for the "Tough" book.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Bill Palmer:
I'm reasonably certain Frank Garcia knew exactly where the trick came from, just as he knew exactly where the purloined parts of "MacDonald's $100 Ace Trick" came from. He was roundly criticized because of the lack of credits in his book.

Before I am pilloried for criticizing Frank Garcia, let me say I have always enjoyed his books and have wonderful memories of seeing him perform on television, particularly "The Mike Douglas Show".
Mr Garcia was prone to freely "borrow" whole paragraphs from books written by others. See Darwin Ortiz' "The Annotated Erdnase" for some prime examples.

[Richard Kaufman]

To put it more succintly, Frank was a thief. But he was a lovable rogue, and he got away with a lot because of it. He also apologized to many people later in his life, myself and David Roth among them.

The idea of utilizing a different vanish for each Ace in the routine known today as "McDonald's Aces" came from Ken Krenzel, and was published in M-U-M in the early 1960s.

[Guest]

Clarity of plot and clarity of effect are not the same thing. The plot is what happens. The effect is the magical power you are demonstrating.

So for Red Hot Mamma, it should be pretty straightforward to structure a presentation that dramatizes your ability to change the appearance of playing cards. First you change the back of one selection to red, then you change the face to match a random selection.

This should constitute a thorough demonstration of the ability to change a playing card. The first change delivers surprise and shock, and the second uses a selected card to prove, under close examination, that you can change the face to anything you want. This structure will make the presentation much easier for the audience to understood, appreciate, and remember.

This is not, of course, the only structure that will do all these things. But if your current structure doesn't do all these things, this one might be better.

[Pete Biro]

Whit Haydn's routine rocks. End of story.

[Philippe Billot]

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:


The idea of utilizing a different vanish for each Ace in the routine known today as "McDonald's Aces" came from Ken Krenzel, and was published in M-U-M in the early 1960s.

In M-U-M, Vol. 50, N 9, feb 1961, page 554.
"Those Extra Touches"

Thanks to Jon Racherbaumer for the information he quoted in Marlo Magazine N 3 (1979) in his (very good) article "Olram Aces"

[Philippe Billot]

Originally posted by Pete Biro:
Whit Haydn's routine rocks. End of story.

Are you saying it's a good idea to buy his book "The Chicago Surprise" ?

[Guest]

Originally posted by Philippe Billot:

Originally posted by Pete Biro:
Whit Haydn's routine rocks. End of story.

Are you saying it's a good idea to buy his book "The Chicago Surprise" ?

It's a very good idea to buy his book. It's not just a write up of a great version of this trick - it also imparts much of his philosophy and theory on magic.

You can find videos of Mr Haydn performing this one out there on the 'net.

[Keith Raygor]

I learned this trick in the mid-70s from Frank Garcia's book. I fell in love with the ending but getting there, via Mr. Garcia's handling, left a lot to be desired so I rarely performed it.

When Whit Haydn came out with his manuscript, I thought it went a long way towards elevating this trick to art. He not only considered the details, he explains them in a way that lays a wonderful foundation for applying the thinking to other effects.

Its time for me to revisit Mr. Close's version and give it a fair shake based on the comments above. I'm embarrassed to say I glossed over it due to the casino storyline.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Pete Biro:
Whit Haydn's routine rocks. End of story.

And Jim Ryan's routine rolls - and that "is" the story.

I have seen Jim Ryan in action and in my opinion he "was" one of the "greats". And his books are forgotten classics.

For years the Ryan red hot mama was my opening card effect - Few magicians entertained like Jim Ryan.

Just my opinion.

Viva Jim Ryan!

[Brandon Hall]

I learned this from a Simon Lovell video and combined it with Whit's and some of my own ideas to create what's become one of my favorite and most popular routines.