ERDNASE

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Joe Mckay
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Joe Mckay » August 8th, 2018, 7:19 pm

Leo - check out the April & May (1971) issues of The Linking Ring.

PM me if you need copies of the magazines.

Bill Mullins
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 15th, 2018, 11:58 pm

In Sept 1889, the Duke & Sons tobacco company released a set of 24 trade cards in association with their "Honest Long Cut" tobacco entitled "Tricks with Cards", each of which described a card trick.

Trick #1 was a Rising Card (from a glass). Erdnase included a Rising Card trick (from the hands).
Tricks #3 and 8 were Card Stabs (3 cards stabbed on a sword, single card stabbed on a wand). Erdnase included a Card Stab (Malini-style, single card stabbed on table).
Trick #4 was "The Row of Ten Cards" as written up in Erdnase, under a different title.
Trick #6 was where a performed slaps a deck held in a spectator's hands, leaving a singled (selected) card. Erdnase included this as a "Sleight for Terminating Tricks".
Trick #9 has the effect of a single phase of "3 Card Monte". Erdnase included "3 Card Monte".
Tricks #10 and 21 are based on the "Eight Kings" stack. Erdnase includes a discussion of the stack in "Tricks with a Prearranged Deck", and based a trick on it.
Trick #12 is a selected card at a selected number. Erdnase accomplishes a similar effect, with a different method, in "Power of Concentrated Thought."
Trick #17 is accomplished by use of the Glide, which Erdnase discusses and calls "The Slide".

It may be that Erdnase was a smoker, and was familiar with this set of trade cards.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » August 16th, 2018, 10:53 am

An interesting find Bill! This tobacco company must have paid somebody well versed in card magic to write up the tricks on those trading cards. Since most of those card tricks appear in The Expert, you have to wonder if it might have been the author.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 16th, 2018, 6:31 pm

https://thetraderspeaks.com/n138-tricks-with-cards/

Hey, thanks. Great find in terms of history. Does the explanation text scan as familiar?
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Bill Mullins
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 17th, 2018, 3:48 am

Jonathan Townsend wrote: Great find in terms of history. Does the explanation text scan as familiar?


Not to me, it doesn't.

Edward Pungot
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Edward Pungot » August 17th, 2018, 5:20 am

Great find!!!
I've chewed a lot of gum and smoked plenty of cigarettes but only came up with comics and a smelly left hand.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Edward Pungot » August 17th, 2018, 5:25 am

What's the method Bill?
Where how do you find this stuff .

Bill Mullins
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 17th, 2018, 1:47 pm

I've only been "into" magic seriously for 20 years. I started collecting cards in the late 1970s, and have known about this particular set for a long time. I only just now took the trouble to compare them to Erdnase, though.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 17th, 2018, 3:06 pm

Bill, that's amazing.
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Joe Mckay
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Joe Mckay » August 17th, 2018, 5:30 pm

John Moehring had an interesting article about these tobacco cards in the June 2001 issue of MAGIC magazine. Check out page 52.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Joe Mckay » August 17th, 2018, 5:37 pm

The article is in three parts. The second part is in the July 2001 issue of MAGIC. Check out page 54.

And the third part is in the August 2001 issue of MAGIC. Check out page 50.

There isn't really much information in the articles. It is mainly devoted to reproductions of the tobacco cards.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » August 18th, 2018, 9:16 am

The Erdnase/tobacco cards possible connection begs the question: Were the card tricks on those tobacco trading cards popular effects with card magicians in the late 19th century? Much like the packet trick craze of the 1970s.

If yes then it might account for the appearance of those effects in The Expert. The author surely didn't just randomly pick out those effects for inclusion in the book. It would also be neat to know the identity of the magician who was contracted by the tobacco company to write up those tricks.

Bill Mullins
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 18th, 2018, 9:45 pm

Joe Mckay wrote:John Moehring had an interesting article about these tobacco cards in the June 2001 issue of MAGIC magazine. Check out page 52.


The article went on for the next two issues, as well. It featured Burton Sperber's set of the cards, who also wrote them up in an issue of his publication "A Real Miracle". Potter & Potter sold his set in 2014. It went for $3400 plus buyer's premium -- over $4000.

There are a couple of minor errors in the articles. The cards were released in Sept 1889, not 1887 (I found reference to their release at that time in an issue of Tobacco, a trade journal for tobacco producers and sellers). And "Honest Long Cut," the product in which the cards were inserted, was not a brand of cigarettes. It was a loose-cut tobacco, suitable for either rolling your own cigarettes, or for chewing.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 18th, 2018, 9:56 pm

Leo, the Duke set of cards is highly rare, accounting for its high price. I don't know of another set that early which describes card tricks of this type.
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Bill Mullins
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 18th, 2018, 10:22 pm

Leonard Hevia wrote:The Erdnase/tobacco cards possible connection begs the question: Were the card tricks on those tobacco trading cards popular effects with card magicians in the late 19th century? Much like the packet trick craze of the 1970s.


I think they are (mostly) more or less "standard" tricks, popular then and now. The Rising Card and the Card Stab are timeless.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby observer » August 19th, 2018, 12:33 am

Bill Mullins wrote:
Leonard Hevia wrote:The Erdnase/tobacco cards possible connection begs the question: Were the card tricks on those tobacco trading cards popular effects with card magicians in the late 19th century? Much like the packet trick craze of the 1970s.


I think they are (mostly) more or less "standard" tricks, popular then and now. The Rising Card and the Card Stab are timeless.


Eight Kings goes back to 1876 (at least) (Hoffman's Modern Magic).

"Selected card at selected number by different methods" .. that's most card tricks, isn't it?

3 Card Monte - a specialty of Canada Bill Jones (1837-1877).

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Marco Pusterla
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Marco Pusterla » August 19th, 2018, 4:20 am

observer wrote:
Eight Kings goes back to 1876 (at least) (Hoffman's Modern Magic).


Eight Kings was first described in The Expositor, or, Many Mysteries Unravelled - Including that of the Learned Pig published in Boston in 1805 by William Frederick Pinchbeck. The trick begins on page 95: "By what manner the Pig is thought to know the card drawn".

It is not the first cyclical stack: earlier examples exist - in Latin - going back to the late Middle Ages (cfr. Ye Olde Magic Mag, Vol. 2 #3).
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 21st, 2018, 12:44 am

Marco Pusterla wrote:
observer wrote:
Eight Kings goes back to 1876 (at least) (Hoffman's Modern Magic).


Eight Kings was first described in The Expositor, or, Many Mysteries Unravelled - Including that of the Learned Pig published in Boston in 1805 by William Frederick Pinchbeck. The trick begins on page 95: "By what manner the Pig is thought to know the card drawn".


Yes

Bill Mullins
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 21st, 2018, 12:59 am

For anyone who cares, I'm pretty sure that the font of the front cover of the 1st edition of Expert is Post Oldstyle. The font was derived from the cover design of The Saturday Evening Post, which made me go "D'oh!" when I read it -- I've been staring at copies of covers of that magazine for over forty years, since I worked for an old magazine dealer in the 1970s who bought and sold them, looking at the illustrations by Rockwell, Wyeth, Leyendecker, Flagg, etc., and should have caught the connection long ago.

The italicized "The" is not the italic version of Post Oldstyle, but looks to be from some other compatible font.

A modern commercially-available implementation is Lamp Post JNL.

Stephen Burton
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Stephen Burton » August 22nd, 2018, 4:32 pm

The description of the Eight Kings set-up should be noted as another Erdnase error. He wrote, "Eight Kings threatened to save Ninety-five Queens from one sick Knave" which should be "for one sick Knave."

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » August 22nd, 2018, 5:03 pm

Stephen Burton wrote:The description of the Eight Kings set-up should be noted as another Erdnase error. He wrote, "Eight Kings threatened to save Ninety-five Queens from one sick Knave" which should be "for one sick Knave."


There is no "right" or "wrong" way to utilize the mnemonic, there have been multiple versions over the years ... as is highlighted in this early Genii Forum thread:

viewtopic.php?t=6584

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Stephen Burton » August 23rd, 2018, 4:58 pm

Roger M. wrote:
Stephen Burton wrote:The description of the Eight Kings set-up should be noted as another Erdnase error. He wrote, "Eight Kings threatened to save Ninety-five Queens from one sick Knave" which should be "for one sick Knave."


There is no "right" or "wrong" way to utilize the mnemonic, there have been multiple versions over the years ... as is highlighted in this early Genii Forum thread:

viewtopic.php?t=6584


I see your point, it doesn't matter the actual word as long the performer knows that the word "from" is equivalent to the number four. I had just always read it as "for one sick Knave" and indeed Pinchbeck had it that way in 1805. It does seem to make more sense for the Kings to be saving the Queens from a sick Knave instead for him. That is, if you can attribute any sort of logic to a doggerel. Thanks for the link to the thread.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 30th, 2018, 1:44 pm

Earlier in the thread I've listed magicians who used their names reversed as pseudonyms. I've found another:
Mel Stover wrote as "Rev. O. T. Slem" in A Fork Full of Appetizers II.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Stephen Burton » August 30th, 2018, 5:09 pm

After doing some research I’ve concluded that the word “from” in the Erdnase description of the Eight Kings setup is indeed an error. The following books from before and after the publication of The Expert at the Card Table all show “for one sick knave” as the last four words in the doggerel.

The only example I could find in any book with the last four words being “from one sick knave” is The Expert at the Card Table. In publications, I could find a scant two examples and they are both in MUM. Harry Riser has it this way in the June, 1987 issue (and he is quoting Erdnase) and Ian Kendall has it as “from” in the December 2010 issue.

These books all have it as “for one sick knave”:
Pinchbeck, The Expositor, 1805
Magician’s Own Book, 1857
The Secret Out, 1859
Cremer, Hanky Panky, 1872
Hoffman, Modern Magic, 1876
Hercat, Card Tricks, 1888
Hilliar, Modern Magician’s Handbook, 1902
David Devant, Magic Made Easy, 1910
Ellis Stanyon, Stanyon’s Magic, May, 1913
George Johnson, The Magic Wand, March, 1919
Raymond Dixie, The Boy Magician, 1922
Charles Eastman, French’s Manipulative Magic, 1930
Annemann, The Book without a Name, 1931
Stewart Judah, Subtle Problems You Will Do, 1937
Hilliard, Card Magic, 1945
Also Harry Stanley, Henry Hay, Jim Steinmeyer, Ralph Hull, Wilfred Jonson, etc.

That I could not find any other example of the word “from” in the Eight Kings descriptions leads me to think that either S.W. Erdnase learned the doggerel incorrectly, deliberately changed the word “for” to “from”, or it was a typographical error. The most likely conclusion is, to me, that it was an error as I cannot believe would make a mistake in either learning the description or obfuscate the phrase by changing the logical use of the word, “for”.

An interesting thing I learned from this research was the Sloane 424 manuscript from the 1600s has a stacked deck with the same Four, Ace, Six, Knave (soldier) sequence (Gibeciere, Vol. 5 No.2, Summer 2010). However, there was no mnemonic sequence given to learn this, although Stephen Minch provides a possible example.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 30th, 2018, 6:03 pm

Stephen Burton wrote:... deliberately changed the word “for” to “from”...
Typesetter or editor? :) Was it common to call the mnemonic a jingle?
Last edited by Jonathan Townsend on August 30th, 2018, 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bill Mullins
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 30th, 2018, 6:08 pm

I've been looking at the sequence as well. What struck me as interesting is that usually, it was "nine fine ladies" or "nine fair ladies" pre-Erdnase. Then Hoffmann, in Modern Magic, used "ninety-five ladies" and used it again in More Magic. Roterberg, in New Era Card Tricks, used "Ninety-five queens".

William E. Robinson used "ninety-five ladies" in an 1895 issue of The Vaudeville (a variant of Mahatma).

Hilliar, in Modern Magicians' Hand Book, used "ninety-five ladies". It came out in 1902 as well, but wasn't copyrighted until later in the year, well after Erdnase.

Others have identified Sachs, Hoffmann, and Roterberg as sources for Erdnase. I'd suspect that he learned the Eight Kings stack from Hoffmann.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 30th, 2018, 8:53 pm

The "Eight Kings" stack makes an interesting appearance in the newspaper detective comic strip "Kerry Drake" in June 1945. The villian, Shuteye, needs to get a message to his moll, Roulette, but knows he's about to be picked up by Kerry.

6/26/1945
"Gripping the bridge cards firmly, Shuteye writes on the edges . . .
'Lucky I taught Roulette how to "stack" a deck!'
Then he shuffles the cards and pencils a question on the top card!
'Remember the one about 95 Queens and a sick Knave?' "

6/28/1946 -- Roulette has received the deck.
"'These cards must be a message from Shuteye!. . . He wrote on the top one . . It's the old code for "stacking" a deck! Yeah! "Eight kings threatened to save 95 queens for one sick knave!'
Swiftly arranging the cards by the secret formula, Roulette sees on the edge . . .
'Midnight . . . Boat . . . Foot of Surf Street' "

Kerry and his assistant, Gabby, capture Roulette and the deck. He orders a bunch of magic and gambling books from the library. Gabby discovers the secret of the Eight Kings stack in an "Encyclopedia of Card Tricks".

7/2/1945
" 'When d' cards are fixed in that order, this writin' on d' edges stands out like a "porched" egg on a plate of hash!' "

Gabby, hoping to impress Kerry, goes alone to the boat to capture Shuteye. But things go awry from there . . . .

This same ruse of writing a secret message on the edge of a deck stacked in Eight Kings order is also used in the newspaper serial prose story "Murder on the Avenue" by Carolyn Wells (1942).

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 30th, 2018, 9:06 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:The "Eight Kings" stack makes an interesting appearance in the newspaper detective comic strip "Kerry Drake" in June 1945. The villian, Shuteye, needs to get a message to his moll, Roulette, but knows he's about to be picked up by Kerry.

6/26/1945
"Gripping the bridge cards firmly, Shuteye writes on the edges . . .
'Lucky I taught Roulette how to "stack" a deck!'
Then he shuffles the cards and pencils a question on the top card!
'Remember the one about 95 Queens and a sick Knave?' "
...
Gabby, hoping to impress Kerry, goes alone to the boat to capture Shuteye. But things go awry from there . . . .

That almost reads as a presentation for Gertner's Unshuffled trick. :)

In the erdnase text a few sentences down from the stack- is mention of tricks with named numbers and cards.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Edwin Corrie » August 31st, 2018, 10:17 am

There's even a French mnemonic for the same order:

Huit (8) rois (rois) très (3) discrets (10), de (2) cette (7) neuvième (9) sainte (5) dame (dame) Katryn (4), assistent (as - 6) le valet (valet)

I don't know who came up with it or whether it came before the English version - I found it on a blog by Jean-Francois Gérault that has lots of information (in French) about various stacks, including some early references, at http://jeanfrancoisgerault.blogspot.com/2017_06_23_archive.html.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » September 6th, 2018, 1:53 am

I just noticed this palindrome by Philip T. Goldstein, quoted by Denis Behr at his Conjuring Archive website:

"S. W. Erdnase? He's Andrews!"

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » September 6th, 2018, 9:13 am

Bill Mullins wrote:I just noticed this palindrome by Philip T. Goldstein, quoted by Denis Behr at his Conjuring Archive website:

"S. W. Erdnase? He's Andrews!"


I was informed offline that this has been brought up on the forum twice already, and that one of the bringer-uppers was me. Sorry about that.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jack Shalom » September 6th, 2018, 10:57 am

Was it the summary before the reveal?
(Callback from other thread...)

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » September 14th, 2018, 12:21 pm

From the Moline, IL Dispatch, of 8 March 1946.

ARREST CARBON CLIFF MAN ON DRIVING COUNT
Silvis -- E. Erdnase of Carbon Cliff was arrested last night and jailed on a charge of reckless driving. The Carbon Cliff motorist was still in jail this morning awaiting arraignment before Magistrate Lawrence Bobb.


This is the only time I have ever seen any indication that the name "Erdnase" was possibly the real name of a real person. Without further details, however, it is possible that in this case Erdnase is a typo on the part of the court or the newspaper, or a false name given by the actual driver.

(I'd note that Silvis and Carbon Cliff are small towns immediately east of East Moline, IL, where the Seely's and the Seeley's were bumping into each other 140-odd years ago.)

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Bill Marquardt
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Marquardt » September 14th, 2018, 3:44 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:From the Moline, IL Dispatch, of 8 March 1946.

ARREST CARBON CLIFF MAN ON DRIVING COUNT
Silvis -- E. Erdnase of Carbon Cliff was arrested last night and jailed on a charge of reckless driving. The Carbon Cliff motorist was still in jail this morning awaiting arraignment before Magistrate Lawrence Bobb. etc...


Dare I ask if a check of the 1940 or 1950 census for that locale has already been done?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » September 14th, 2018, 6:02 pm

I've checked 1940 and earlier censuses many times, through several different access portals. no luck.

The 1950 census has not been released by the Census Bureau yet. It has to be 70 years after the census before they will make it publicly available, so it will become searchable sometime after 2020.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » September 21st, 2018, 5:03 pm

Edward Gallaway's bookplate includes a cherub ornament in its design. That ornament can be found in the specimen books of the American Type Founders, which also include samples of the font "Post Oldstyle". As I mentioned above recently, that seems to be the font used on the front cover of the book.

ATF's Chicago Office was at 203/205 Monroe in 1903, only a couple blocks north of Printer's Row in Chicago.

I don't for a moment believe that Gallaway's ornament and Erdnase's font sharing a common source is evidence that Gallaway and Erdnase were the same person, although I wouldn't be surprised to see that suggested soon. ATF was a dominant source of type. It's like saying that both Gallaway and Erdnase used Microsoft Windows, therefore they were the same guy. To me, the likely inference is that Gallaway's employer used ATF products, so it was straightforward for Gallaway to use ATF products when designing his bookplate.

I expected to also see the "acorn" device which is used on the front cover of 1st edition copies of Expert in this specimen book, but haven't located it yet.

The McKinney bankruptcy records include reference to supplies of a font named "Old Style"; perhaps it is the same one.


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