Trouble on The Magic Cafe

[Guest]

The cafe is generally a mess! It is full of junk. People (not magicians) fishing for secrets, bad reviews, and blatant marketing attempts. I bet 50% of the users on there are NON magicians, or duplicate accounts of regular users! Someone should look into that.

It needs to be cleaned up, and better managed. Everyone I talk to thinks the cafe is ridiculous...

[Guest]

I regret my coarse language.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
I've just asked our webmaster, Brad Aldridge, to create a new category in the "Tricks and Illusions" area to be called: Children's Entertainment. ...

But it's in the "Biz, Buzz, Collecting, Etc." section - a strange place!

CHS

[added by edit]

On this board, I've generally defended the Cafe, believing that good folks post on the Cafe (just like here) and that a wholesale dismissal of the Cafe is not fair (nor is it accurate, really). The irony is that a few of the chaps who have "dissed" the Cafe on this board have, IMO, really made asses of themselves here.

That said, I prefer the quality of discourse here. It just better suits my tastes.

[added by another edit]

P.S. If Frank Starsinic's characterization is accurate regarding what happened in the "Why All the Hate?" thread, then the Cafe mods should hang their heads ...

[Guest]

Originally posted by John LeBlanc:
I'm not going to make excuses for Steve Brooks or The Magic Cafe -- it's not my board or my place. Although I've had my share of irritations over various issues and threads, I'll just say that my dealings with Steve have left me with the impression he does his best to do the right thing, and that's all one can expect from another person.

But I will say two things in general: as anyone who has done it will tell you, running a discussion board of any size can be a royal PITA from time to time; and there's always three sides to every story. Given the amount of traffic over at the Cafe, someone's toes will be stepped on from time to time.

Anyone who thinks they can do a better job of running a board is always free to start up their own. Experience is the best teacher of humility.

John

Excellent post, John.

- Steve H

[Guest]

Originally posted by Jesse Feinberg:
...It needs to be cleaned up, and better managed. Everyone I talk to thinks the caf is ridiculous...

IMHO it's a pretty good barometer for where we are in magicdom.

The current "big thing" appears to be a web page offering on www.whatistheory11.com and there are over seventy five (75!) pages of discussion and puzzle solving in progress to date.

Remember the movie "If..." or Mary Shelly's Frankenstein? What happens when adults abandon their responsibilities?

On the plus side there are some who are exploring the Tenkai Pennies trick and are slowly working their way toward an edge grip version and may even discover the EG2FP transfer in the process.

IMHO such journeys of discovery are a significant part of ones education. Just a little sorry to see it come at the price of being done in public and among peers who have not so much as read the standard texts.

As others have mentioned there is a Christian/Mammon heavy influence present so the necessary counterspells and animal sacrifice rituals have to be organized and discussed in code.

Yog Sothoth Eternum,

J

[Guest]

JKeppel mentioned that the Magic Circle Jerk archives can't be viewed anymore. That's true, but you can still enjoy Andy's writings on the Internet Archive Wayback Machine, at http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://mag ... ogspot.com .

-- David

[Todd Lassen]

Wow, that is cool. Never heard of the 'way back' machine. Thanks for the link David.

http://web.archive.org/web/200210130749 ... ldout.html

I can even go 'way back' and see reference to the work I did, for which I never got paid or credited. :)

[Guest]

Todd, though your name is still anathema and discussing you is taboo (ON THE CAFE), none less than Kainoa Harbottle has recently praised your work and you as a resource for the coin guys.

[Todd Lassen]

Anathema? Ouch, that hurts. Well...Not. Is that general consensus? :)

I can make coins, but I'm not a valuable contributor to magic boards...YET. My only skills with the pen THUS FAR, it seems, are ...bitching, promoting my wares, and rude sarcasm. The good stuff is coming soon though. :)

[Guest]

Originally posted by Todd Lassen:
Anathema? .... Is that general consensus? ...

My guess is that's ONLY among the mods/managment there.

[Todd Lassen]

"My guess is that's ONLY among the mods/managment there."

And ONE other guy.

[Guest]

There's a lot of good stuff at the Cafe. I think you need to pick and choose, but one thing I will agree with is that freedom of speech is much better here. There are numerous things that are censored on the Cafe. And I miss the MCJ ;)

[Alan Bursky]

Look at the garbage I have to take at The MagicCafe for doing something I have every right to do. Thank you SilverKing for your support. Thank you Richard Kaufman for never letting something like that on here.

[Guest]

I used to love the Magic Cafe but I agree it's different then in the beginning. I suppose many things have become that way as the internet has grown. I remember when ebay was a great place to buy magic. It still is but 95% of the items sold there are just commercial items like sponge balls sold by small retail stores.

I remember once I bought something from a user there and it was damaged and unusable. He replaced it but wanted me to pay to have the original returned. I mentioned I didn't think it was right for me to pay for a damaged item that he didn't check out before sending me. So I put up a post asking the members what they thought (without naming his name) and just about everyone said the seller should pay for shipping. A few people that were sellers themselves basically said I was being a jerk and one guy said "Geez...I'LL pay for the shipping!" So I took him up on it. If he wanted to pay, fine. As soon as that happened, my original post that was FULL of people agreeing with me was removed and the guy who paid for the shipping opened a new post that made me look like a total ass. I then recieved a brutal tar and feathering from pretty much everyone on the site that didn't know about the previous post. Suprisingly, all of the admins let it happen and I'm guessing one of them removed the original post as well and was probably a friend of the guy who smeared me. Anyway, it really left a bad taste in my mouth and I only check in occasionally to buy or sell items.

I've always found the level of professionalism here and the quality of the members far outshined anything the Cafe had to offer though so I don't miss it too much. Biro, Kam, Townsend and others still post there though and they always have interesting things to say and I've learned quite a bit from them over the years. But many thanks go out to Richard for providing this forum! Thanks Richard :)

[Guest]

One of the things that needs to be accepted about the Cafe is the old boys network and mutual backslapping/censorship which is prevelant. For that reason it can hardly be a serious vehicle for any controversial discussion.

My attitude is to take it with a pinch of salt in that respect, but to recognise it's other benefits with respect to the technical discussions.

[Pete Biro]

Bursky. Been out of town and not answering phone. Best deal on the Cafe Crap is ignore it.

[Roger M.]

Whit Hayden has just posted a thought provoking statement about the unfair treatment Alan Bursky received on the Cafe.
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/view ... 9&start=60

There will be readers who won't see the truth in Whit's thoughts, nor will they understand that Whit's insight into human nature is always astute.

All in all, a very distasteful Cafe thread, and an example of how brutal the Cafe will let people be treated when it doesn't serve the Cafe's interest to support them.
In this case, Alan Bursky received treatment from Cafe users, AND Cafe management that he truly didn't deserve.

As Whit H. says in his post, Mr. Bursky's treatment on the Cafe was shameful.

[Dustin Stinett]

My only question is who was more surprised: Alan Bursky when he found out he is Dave Madden, or Dave Madden when he found out he is Alan Bursky?

From Magic Cafe
I do not know Alan Bursky, in fact I just did a search a few minutes ago and was surprised he was Mr. Kincaid on The Partridge Family...who'd a thunk it.

Alan Bursky played Alan Kincaid, Mr. (Reuben) Kincaids nephew (though that credit appears to be missing on IMDb).

Dustin
(And one hour or so that he'll never get back.)

[Guest]

NOW this is BUZZ worthy content!

[Richard Kaufman]

Bursky--I just gave you a little support on the Cafe.

[Roger M.]

You might want to save your Cafe posts Richard, or post them here as well.
They'll all probably get deleted shortly, as will mine.

Here's what I've posted on the Cafe, likely soon to be deleted.

From the Cafe thread:

It's obvious to anybody who has been following this thread that Alan Bursky had a credible description as to the course of events that led to his release of the poker routine.
That's it....it was simply his response to an unwarranted attack that is STILL the first post in this thread.

The constant and abusive attack that was allowed to take place against Mr. Bursky finally caused him to lose his temper and say a few things that could have simply been deleted by the mods without banning Bursky and without destroying the record of events from his perspective that were contained in his deleted posts.

Many of the derogatory and inflammatory posts (starting with the very first and second posts in this thread) have been allowed to remain. This continues to display an unwarranted attack on Mr. Burskys name and actions in this affair, and is confusing to all who visit the Caf as to why it's allowed to continue, and why it was allowed to happen in the first place.

Unfortunately, my post and others like it will likely be deleted.
This is sad simply because it distorts the record even further than it has already been distorted, while leaving the unwarranted posts attacking Mr. Bursky in place.

[Guest]

I tried reading the thread about Crandall's routine but found I could not make sense of the story behind the item or the personal issues.

Then it got into making jibes about Ron Bauer and cancer.

No idea what's up on that entire story.

Anyone know the background of the Crandall item and can they give some non-partisan history for those of us who can't read between the explosions on that other thread?

[Brandon Hall]

They just made the whole thing go away...finally. Let me just say I was one of the initial "bandwagon jumpers". I posted an apology to Alan that I hope and believe he has accepted. I believe in this case i should have kept my mouth shut until more of the "true" facts became known.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Blair Morris:

how brutal the Cafe will let people be treated when it doesn't serve the Cafe's interest to support them.

I, too, have found this to be very true.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Blair Morris:

Many of the derogatory and inflammatory posts (starting with the very first and second posts in this thread) have been allowed to remain. This continues to display an unwarranted attack on Mr. Burskys name and actions in this affair, and is confusing to all who visit the Caf as to why it's allowed to continue, and why it was allowed to happen in the first place.

This is typical at the Cafe when a thread goes South. I don't think it's intended - I just think many of the mods aren't the sharpest tools in the shed.

Whit Haydn posted a terrific commentary on the pack animal attack on Bursky yesterday, which I think has been removed.

[Alan Bursky]

Thank you, Richard, Whit, Pete, and all the others for your support. SliverKing, & MagiacSanta. Also Brandon for the apology. I have been banned from the Cafe forum for 2 months, so I was not able to read the support you guys gave me. THANK YOU, again.

[Guest]

The Postings are not lost. Here are the two supporting postings by both Whit Haydn and Richard Kaufman:

Whit Haydn:

I do not understand the vitriolic nature of these threads. Allan Bursky is a fine writer and performing comic who has accomplished many things in his career. He has had his successes and failures like all of us. He has worked hard in every kind of performing venue. He is a pro who has paid his dues over many years and is both knowledgeable and serious about the business, and has the experience of being both a performer and an agent. His advice is highly sought after by many pros in this business.

What gives people the need to belittle his credits? What is he being accused of here? What gives people the right to show such little respect and to demand answers like some kind of a Star Chamber?

Allan may have responded to some of his attackers over-zealously, but it is not a comfortable thing to have yourself publicly attacked by strangers--people who offer charges and insinuations that they can not back up.

Allan was called a thief and worse on this thread before he ever responded.

I know how painful such unfounded attacks and accusations can be. On this forum and other forums and on various blogs I was called all kinds of things by people who "assumed the worst" because I could not at that point, respond to the unfair and untrue charges. I was called all manner of foul names on various blogs and received a huge amount of unfair invective and negative image.

Allan is a friend of mine. I love him dearly. He is truly one of a kind (and thank God for that...).

Many people can't stand him, and he doesn't like many people himself--he is not the easiest person on the planet to be friends with.

Still...his list of friends is a pretty amazing and impressive list.

He does not deserve the treatment he is getting here.

I don't know you, Dan Andrus, but who are you to attack a pro like Allan?

You belittle and begrudge his national television exposure.

Why? What has Allan done to you?

What makes you think it is up to you to take him down a peg?

What sort of show business credentials have you to belittle his?

You guys are like a pack of dogs who like to join in the attack when another dog is down and bleeding.

You should all be ashamed of yourselves.

Richard Kaufman:

I know Bursky for many decades. He's a good guy--a little crazy, but a good guy.

Considering that most folks who aspire to be in show business never do more than wait tables in restaurants or do dinner theater in an obscure place, Bursky has done very well. How many of you ding-dongs have EVER been on network TV?

This is really a crazy thread and considering how often things get deleted here, you have to wonder about the motives of the moderators when they DO let a thread like this continue.
_________________

Yeah, I am a little cranky, and I feel even crankier thinking about this thread.

The people defending Ron Bauer here are his accolytes--Bauer is a kind of swami who hypnotizes people with BS by the truckload.

Bauer always claimed Brother Hamman as a close friend, but this was never true and Hamman told me this himself. Brother John was one of the many people who, having encountered Bauer, later distanced themselves from him as Bauer's personality revealed itself.

Bauer is a very devious character, and greedy as well. All those overpriced little booklets of his, if put into one big book for $45, would be a good investment (though it is unfortunate that most of the contributors are dead people whose permissions weren't required).

Very few people either trust Ron Bauer or want anything to do with him. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he copped some of Bursky's presentation.

[Alan Bursky]

Thank you Mr. Behr, for making that available to me.

WOW!

Whit, Richard, I am really touched. I am speechless. Which as you know isn't easy for me to be. Thank you Richard, and Whit. I am really a lucky guy to know both of you. Thank you very much for your support.

[Guest]

Richard Kaufman:

How many of you ding-dongs have EVER been on network TV?

I like that. Indeed. ;)

[Richard Kaufman]

I should add, before my comment is misconstrued, that I have not been on network TV. Cable, yes, on Mindfreak, and my motivation was solely to publicize Genii and hopefully gain a few more subscribers.

[Guest]

"I have been banned from the Cafe forum for 2 months, so I was not able to read the support you guys gave me. THANK YOU, again."

Hello Alan. Just for your information, as I have been down the same road as you, you can see the posts on the cafe even if you have been banned. Just go to "delete cookies" at the top of your screen, and the "banned" notice will magically dissapear. I do hope your ban will only be for two months. My friend Frank Starsinac was banned for life over a dispute about an egg bag, and they reinstated him after 24 hours. On the other hand, I was banned for three months for suggesting I started a kids convention in Arizona, and, before the three months was up, they extended my ban to life! Go figure!! JR

[Guest]

" How many of you ding-dongs have EVER been on network TV?"

Um, would that make them magic ding dongs?

http://www.magicbox.uk.com/shop.php/sho ... p_343.html

/rimshot

[Guest]

I was banned once for two months after making a very funny joke about the foibles of doing a Gospel Balloon Twisting act.

At least I thought it was funny, the moderators didn't

Never make a joke on there that ends with "The Aristocrats!"

[Guest]

[RK, perhaps you know already, but for the most part Ive defended the Caf here against what I felt were unfair attacks. I hope you leave what follows as-is, since Ive had no axe to grind with the Cafe.]

One of the things thats bothered me about the Caf is that the mods there edit or delete posts and nobody si the wiser. The result, of course, can be the kinds of threads and posts weve heard about here threads or posts that make no sense or make someone look like an idiot or unjustifiably argumentative.

So I posted a suggestion on the Caf that the mods note whenever they edit or delete a post, and basically said that it was just good policy, etc.

Dave Scribner replied that it would take too much time for commentary to be inserted and that it would clutter up the posts or defeat the purpose of the Caf (!). Basically, Scribner either completely misread my post or decided not to really address the issue.

So I wrote the following in a second post (Scribner had promptly locked the first one clearly, IMHO, because he did not want to be called on his BS).

As much as the Caf staff tries to timely respond to queries here, it must be irritating (and time-consuming) when someone just doesnt get it. So, since Dave Scribner locked my Post Editing By Mods & Admins thread, I reopen the topic only after some thought and in the belief that its worthwhile. Why? Because I believe Dave either answered a question I didnt ask or didnt answer my question. It happens sometimes to all of us.

Dave, I dont think you read my post carefully. I was NOT asking you folks to insert commentary in every post you edit or delete; if that were the case, I would easily understand and sympathize with your response. I simply said that when Caf staff edits or deletes a post, that they add [Edited (or Deleted) by ____________.]" And to make it even easier, perhaps if only very basic spelling or grammatical errors are at issue, then no such notation would be needed.

Dave, all due respect, but Im not buying the too time consuming argument nor am I buying the clutter up the post and would be off-topic and defeat the purpose of the Caf arguments. Take a poll if you must, but virtually nobodys going to buy that one.

If staff have time to search out and correct their to there, they certainly have time to cut and paste the simple phrase, [Edited by Dave Scribner], or if time is such a big factor (which, again, Im not buying into), then [Edited by D.S.].

Dave, you wrote that [i]n MOST [emphasis added] cases, when major editing or deleting is required, the post is returned to the member for correction with an explanation of why the post isn't allowed. We don't want to put words in anyone's mouth ...

What about the cases that dont fall into the most group? Again, I ask, how would you feel if your post was changed so substantially that its meaning was changed? Ill bet my last dollar that nobody would like that.

Again, all readers of a thread should know if "management" has tinkered with any posts or threads.

If youd like, Ill quote some of what Steve Brooks has written to support the fact that my request not only makes sense, but is in keeping with the tenets of Steves enterprise here.

If someone wants to argue that its our place, so well run things as we see fit, and go somewhere else I you dont like, thats fine lame and unprincipled in this specific case and topic, but fine.

I gather that most of the visitors here love the Caf. Why not leave this post open and see what others think about the propriety, courtesy, and civility of noting to readers when a third party has altered an individuals post?

Thanks for reading.

Clay

P.S. Dave, I edited your excerpts to correct spelling and grammatical errors. ;)


Steve Brooks deleted both of my posts and sent me the following PM:

"To the Mods and Admins:

I don't think it's ever happened to me, but if you edit or delete someone's post - especially without their permission or request - you should note somewhere in that post that you did so, e.g., "[Edited (or Deleted) by ____________.]"

It's that simple, not time consuming, and there's no reason not to identify yourself and what you've done"
-------------------

We use to have that feature in the begining, but I removed it. It makes the forumns look cluttered and I don't like it. That's your answer Clay. Thanks for asking.
By the way, I'm not trying to sound rude here but regarding your second post, asking to see what others think was removed by me....why? Because this is not a democracy and the subject is not up for a vote or discussion.

Here was my reply to Steve:

Steve, I appreciate the courtesy of the reply.

You've made it abundantly clear in the past that you will do what you want to do on the Cafe. So be it. But there is a difference between doing what you feel is right and doing what you want to do. At least to my way of thinking. In this case, by deleting both of my posts in the Manager section (at least when I checked it a few moments ago), I believe you've crossed the line and are just flexing your muscle.

I can appreciate that you dont like the clutter of the edited by feature. But frankly, I dont think its much clutter at all, if the feature you removed was similar at all to Genii Forum, etc. IMHO, you fail to see the bigger picture, and thats the integrity of your board which suffers due to its reputation that editing of posts and threads is sometimes done to such an extent that it makes for a completely unbalanced or nonsensical thread.

Too many stories exist of the mods here editing posts, etc., and making others' posts look ridiculous or argumentative without provocation, for me to think all such stories are sour grapes. You folks are getting a reputation for being arbitrary, petty and partisan.

Only recently did you folks delete a thread which attacked Alan (sp?) Bursky, and only then after some balance had been created by some posts from people with some credibility who challenged the attacks in earlier postings. And I also suspect that someone on your board was aware of the criticism of your handling of this thread on the Genii Forum. Long before these attacks were rebutted by qualified individuals who knew the cast of characters in question, it was obvious that the thread had gone south. Yet you let it stand until either (a) it was finally balanced or (b) external criticism shamed you into doing something. Perhaps the timing was pure coincidence. I doubt it, but I have to concede that possibility.

Ive defended the Caf when I was aware that it was, IMHO, being unfairly attacked on Genii Forum. I also think its fair to say that, on your board, Ive been a contributor, not a taker. Im not so full of myself that I think my contributions were invaluable, etc. But I have tried my best to be a positive member of the Caf, and have tried to follow your motto, Magicians Helping Magicians.

I hope the Caf does not get the widespread reputation for being a place where the management is, among other things, inconsistent and afraid of being challenged. I wont bother to repeat here the things you have written in the past which make my suggestion perfectly reasonable and in furtherance of your stated goals, because I dont think it will do any good with you, alas.

I believe you need to rethink portions of your management style and policies before you lose more of the folks who try nothing more than to contribute in a positive way to your forum. Youve lost me and my support. I dont know who needs the other less, but its clear that the Caf does not value my contributions, and its also clear at this point that I cant continue to contribute to a board that is run with occasional, but and this is critical consistent hypocrisy.

Since our relationship is over so far as the Caf goes, I will publish portions of my original posts, your PM and the foregoing comments, and then you can reply to me on that board if you want to continue the discussion.

Im not happy about leaving the Caf, but Ive also got just enough self respect to reject your approach to handling very reasonable comments and suggestions.


I contribute this post because I want to add to the credible (assuming I am credible of course!) documentation that the Caf is run by folks who arent quite ready for management with integrity.

CHS

[Guest]

I used to be a Grammar Host on the Cafe, and I'm now a Moderator on the Penguin forum, as well as on Scoundrels Forum.

Each one is a totally different animal with a whole different feel and readership.

I was careful to do only spelling changes and report potential "hot spots" to Scribner and crew. My basic instructions were to leave the meaning intact and not leave any tracks behind. In other words, do it quietly in the background. That's the way Steve liked it then, and it seems the way he likes it now. It's definitely not a democracy, and as long as people get along things move along smoothly. I agree with magicam that an [Edited by:] note could make things more informative, but alas it's not going to happen. Some threads that disappear eventually return in a "sterilized" state, hopefully with the meaning intact. Do they always succeed? Sadly, no.

The Penguin forum is more free wheeling, populated by teens and young adults, and except for 133t speak and internet slang we pretty much leave errors alone, focusing more on stopping small fights before they become big ones. For the most part, we leave evidence of our work behind so they know what they did wrong and we hope they learn from their mistakes. We usually lock topics rather than delete them, so their "crimes" are there for all to see. Sometimes this causes a flood of PMs in our inboxes from disgruntled teenagers but they usually move on fairly soon usually never to be heard from again (in most cases, to the delight of the staff)

Scoundrels is a much mature group and all I need to do there is repair broken URLs and misformatted posts. Everything else stays as written.

Now that there is more than one place to "have our say" it's rare that the story is ever suppressed for very long no matter where it's written.

[Guest]

I'm not here to crap on the Cafe, as a matter of fact I credit the people on the Cafe, and the Cafe itself for helping me get back into magic after several years of being away. I've been a member since shortly after it started and I still have an active membership although I rarely visit anymore. (I've made the transition to reading the Genii forums for my daily fix, although today is the first time I've actually logged on in ages.) I wish him well and I sincerely hope he takes some of the criticism he deletes and hears from other sources to heart and moves in another direction with his board. That being said.....

The heavy censorship issue and the sometimes silly "morals" that are pushed by Steve have always been something of a problem for me, but I always considered it more of an annoyance that I could tolerate more than anything else. It took me years before I realized that I was afraid to post things I really wanted share with others for fear of being banned, and ended up with watered down posts that had only a hint of what my original intent was.

The realization that the Cafe was no longer a friendly place to share ideas came when Mr. Brooks began showing seemingly uncontrollable behavior. At times he would exhibit a dictator type attitude and at worst, he adopted a Nazi-like mentality. I honestly hate to use that term about someone, especially when talking about a person running an internet forum, but I can't think of a better way to describe his actions, and unlike my posts on the Cafe, I don't want to water down my thoughts for fear of being banned.

The behavior was almost non-existent during the first year or so of the Cafe's beginnings, but started showing up occasionally, then frequently, and finally regularly. His continued unnecessary "reminders" that he is control and you can get out if you don't like it have been taken to a new level, and are sometimes even accompanied by personal attacks on (banned) members. The favoritism showed on the board has gone from being somthing subtle that was only noticed by the "regulars" to being clearly evident to most that visit, even occasionally.

The Cafe has gone from a friendly place to talk, to a place where you have to know who you can and can't talk against, what names you have to keep out of the discussions, and which topics can be openly discussed and which ones have to tip-toed around, in the hopes that you don't get chastised, given "probation", or banned.

I'm saddened that I can no longer enjoy a lively discussion with old friends from the Cafe, but when the time comes where your primary concern is not the value of your post to the community, but how your post will be viewed by the powers that be, it's time to move on.

I still have a hope that the the direction will change, although I'm sure Steve is set in his ways, and if that time comes and the Cafe becomes the place it was in the beginning, I will gladly return and celebrate with the friends I've made along the way.

[Guest]

It appears that Godwin's law has been applied, so I imagine this thread is now redundant. For those who are unfamiliar with this law, here is the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin\'s_law


JR

[Guest]

One does need some basic communications skills there.

[Guest]

personally i think im done with the cafe. they deleted my 12 page thread outing T11 's digital dissolve cause on the last page people got in a aurgument about 3 fly... why not just delete
those posts.

i don;t think the cafe likes it when you have a real discussion, out side of new product reviews, and they better be positive at that

[Amos McCormick]

Originally posted by Jolly Roger:
It appears that Godwin's law has been applied, so I imagine this thread is now redundant. For those who are unfamiliar with this law, here is the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin\'s_law


JR

Blah, blah, blah, blah, Nazis, blah, blah, blah, Hitler blah, blah, blah...

Does that mean this discussion is now closed?