Three Fly

[Denis Behr]

Hi Sean,
thanks for mentioning the website. I did think about whether I should include some of the clips like Reformation, Maze's Center Deal or Kenner's Colour Change but since those routines or sleights are all published in books I guess they can be performed (and it's performance only of course) in public. I asked some other people including Peter Duffie about the problems I saw and heard the same thing. I give credits where I know them and always point anybody who might be interested in a move I am attempting in a clip to the published record.
If I am doing anything wrong please tell me.
Greetings from Germany,
Denis

(...and sorry for the bad English...)

[Guest]

is this the longest thread in the history of the genii forum?

Noah Levine

[Sean Piper]

Hi there Denis,

I have to say that your clips are probably the best I've seen to date! Very high quality and beatiful techniques. Thanks for sharing.

Which versions of 3 Fly are you performing?

[Brian Marks]

this has got to be the longest thread. Three fly is the most popular topic as the Jonathan Townson thread was also long.

[Guest]

Eric,

Do you need anything more to convince you that many are interested in your 3 fly manuscript release?

Dan

[Bill Duncan]

Denis,
Your 3 Fly is quite good. It finally inspired me to start working on the trick. It looks like trick photography.

Is the method of curl palming on the second pass in print somewhere?

[Carl Mercurio]

Wouldn't the Kaps coins to glass in Routined Manipulation effectively be the first fingertip coins across?

[Brian Marks]

I am not familiar with the routine but it souns like the revelation that the coin has traveled is in the glass and not the fingertips.

[Denis Behr]

Originally posted by Sean Piper:
I have to say that your clips are probably the best I've seen to date! Very high quality and beatiful techniques. Thanks for sharing.

Which versions of 3 Fly are you performing?

Sean, thank you very much for your nice comments. Sorry for the delay, but I was away for a few days (actually working on the Memobooks by Tamariz with someone who can read them :cool: ).
The 3 Fly I attempt on the clip is a combination of the great Kurtz and Wilson routines with a little input by me (the 2nd flight).
I had the following aim (if you are interested at all...): Most routines rely quite heavily on off beats. That is no problem as such but the problem is that the spectators might sense that in my opinion. So they think something like "Yeah... but I watched at the wrong hand all the time..." and in the routine I do in the clip the travels should not appear as "first you look at the one hand and notice the disappearance - than you look at the other hand and notice the appearance" but rather as instantaneous flights. Not sure whether I reached this aim. I get the feeling though that all this is unnecessary because Kohler's version looks so clean and is so much easier than my ungaffed thing. But sadly it is out of my price range...

Greetings from Germany,
Denis

[Sean Piper]

Denis,

I think I can safely say you achieved your goal! This is a beautiful effect. I only caught glimpses on two passes (one from each clip) but that's from someone with knowledge of coin magic.

I showed my housemate the clip (who strangely enough is from Germany) and he was dumbfounded. No mean feat considering the amount of stuff I've shown him.

Cheers!

Sean.

[Carl Mercurio]

Brian,
In Phase I of the Kaps routine, four coins are produced from Down's Palm. One-by-one, they appear at the right fingertips, are taken by the left hand and disappear, only to appear again at the fingertips of the right hand. Phase II is the coins to glass....

[Brian Marks]

Carl

Kaps routine sounds like a fingertip coins across routine. The thinking lookes to be somewhat different and is probably not based on the three fly handling. This makes me very curious about previous fingertip coin magic previous to three fly or just different. Where is this routine published?

[Guest]

How much money do you spend on magic tricks and books and videos before you actually find an effect that is practical to use in the real world. How much time do you spend learning, practicing and testing those tricks before you find out you wasted your money. Bob Kohler's Ultimate 3 Fly is an effect you will definately use so it isn't as expensive as it seems. Just think of the time you spent reading all of these views and you still don't have a routine. Luckily my competition thinks Bob's trick is expensive too. While they continue to buy new tricks looking for a cheap substitute I'm fooling people with Kohler's trick. It is great magic for close-up at restaurants or at house parties.

[Brian Marks]

Originally posted by Steve Dusheck:
How much money do you spend on magic tricks and books and videos before you actually find an effect that is practical to use in the real world. How much time do you spend learning, practicing and testing those tricks before you find out you wasted your money. Bob Kohler's Ultimate 3 Fly is an effect you will definately use so it isn't as expensive as it seems. Just think of the time you spent reading all of these views and you still don't have a routine. Luckily my competition thinks Bob's trick is expensive too. While they continue to buy new tricks looking for a cheap substitute I'm fooling people with Kohler's trick. It is great magic for close-up at restaurants or at house parties.

Its true. Its a great gimmick well worth $300. But for $40 you could buy Cris Kenner's book and learn a sleight of hand version just as effective if done well. Add on Gary Kurtz's book and Paul Wilson's and John Ramsey's 3 booklets and David Roth's book. You could probably throw on Daryl's 3 fly III booklet and David Williamson's book. Between all the coin and card magic I am sure you could find more than 1 trick to add to your repetoire. Imagine all the knowledge you lose if you buy just the trick! Not to mention the gimmick is in no way self working. Ive seen so many people just do three fly poorly because they have a gimmick and no idea what they are doing.

[mike cookman]

Well put, Brian. I never did search for any kind of three fly trick, but when i ran into Kurtz' Trio in his book, I thought it was great. That book alone is money well spent. So is that Willamson book. So much good stuff out there. Magic is fun.

[Jonathan Townsend]

Originally posted by Pete Biro:
Why not take what you know of the effect and work out your own personal handling?

This may be worth a comment.

I agree with the above. When you take an idea or theme and invent your own version, you are doing almost exactly what I did way back when. In choosing to realize one's own internal image of an idea or story, a person has set themselves on the path to being a better artist and craftsman.

Pete, thanks for making this suggestion.

[Jonathan Townsend]

Originally posted by Michael Rubinstein:
Who originated the last coin fingerpalm vanish - I am referring to the basic premise

Here is some ancient history for those interested. Back in 1977 the first Ramsay spiral bound book was a real focus of study in NYC. While I was learning how to move coins into and out of fingerpalm and started doing the nice 'take' some of you have seen, Geoff Latta showed me something.

He moved a single coin to french drop position in his LH, then pretended to 'hang' the coin by revolving this hand at the wrist, and moving the hand up by shifting his elbow and shoulder. The fingers did not move. The coin wound up in LH fingerpalm. So there you have it. Thanks Geoff. That got me started working on one handed vanishes. I never used his move, but the idea stuck.

The fingertip production and vanish that makes the first coin travel in "three flight" is just the way I was playing with it since high school in 1977-78. A friend who was working on the Downs material and I used to compare notes almost every day at lunch. We did explore using the Downs moves to produce coins and the Ramsay moves to vanish coins back then. Then for some reason I stopped with the first coin travel, and started working on back clipping coins.

Let's move ahead to today, and examine the travel of the last coin. I have been wondering about how an audience would react to seeing the last coin visually float from one hand to the other.

Would this get a decent smile or laugh from an audience? Let's presume that whatever method used would allow the coins to be dropped onto into someones hands right after the last travel. So what are your feelings about making the last coin travel in a TRULY visual way?

Looking for feedack -Jon

[Dave Shepherd]

This is my first contribution to this, the longest of all Genii Forum threads, but I have read through the whole thread completely, all four "pages'" worth, about three times lately, in addition to consulting specific posts for one thing or another.

This fingertip coin flight plot has become for me a sort of Holy Grail. The past couple years I have worked my way through at least three methods (Jamy Swiss's, Paul Wilson's, and Daryl's) and have performed the first two of these for audiences.

Lately I have been experimenting with edge-grip and curl-palm concealments. (It snowed today in Washington, and I didn't have to teach school! ;) Lots of time to fiddle around with silver dollars.)

I have wondered about the question Jonathan implies: What does the audience perceive when we show/tell them the coins "fly" from hand to hand? Of course, I hadn't taken it to the ultimate concrete level Jonathan is describing.

Methodology aside, I imagine the audience would react to a visual flight either one of two ways:

They would sit dumbfounded and stunned (assuming they had reacted to the first two passages with bemused laughter),

or

they would look for/ask about a thread/piece of string/other support.

I imagine there is no way of knowing which of these (or another reaction) it would be until one had a method for actually effecting that kind of visual passage.

[Guest]

Jonathan

Is the first Ramsay book that you refer to the "Ramsay Legend"? I worked on the Three coins and hat and it is really hard.

Noah LEvine

[Guest]

Could someone describe what Kenner's unpublished vanish of the last coin looks like? I've never had the fortune to see him myself.

thanks,

- Frank

[Jonathan Townsend]

Originally posted by Frank L.:
...describe what Kenner's unpublished vanish of the last coin looks like?

They say
It's in one hand.
They say
It's no fast moves.
They say
It's hinted at.
They say...

They say hey it's really something
But it's too much work to use.
I say he should film the thing, my friend
Don't listen to the crowd
They say GONE!
Got believe them somehow
They say GONE!
Got to believe the crowd
...

(up way too late...can you name that tune?)

[Matthew Field]

Originally posted by Jonathan Townsend:
(okay, i'm up late, but can you name that tune?)[/QB]

The Alanis Morisette thingie?

Matt Field

[Ryan Matney]

Cuz I got one coin in my topit,
and the other one is just a pretender?

(up too late as well)

[Bill Duncan]

How about getting back on topic?
How about we for-get Morrisette?

Thank U Ryan
Thank U Jonathan
Thank U
Thank U
Thank U

;) (got up too early) ;)

[Guest]

I would like to jump back to something if I may.
What is the difference between Gary Kurtz's "Trio" and the variations of "Three Fly" or "Three Flight" as in Mr. Townsends original effect? I thought I might break the routines up into Major phases. In "Trio" there is a production phase, a vanish and second production, a coins across phase, and a finally vanish phase. In R. Paul Wilson's "Crowded Coins" routine there is, if I'm not mistaken a production phase, a coins across phase, and a vanish phase. Troy Hooser's routines have a similiar structure to Mr. Wilson's routine. In most "Three Fly" routines there is only the coins across phase. Would I be correct in assuming (I know, I know)that a routine with at least three phases (production, coins across, vanish) is actually a variation of "Trio" and not "Three Fly" or "Three Flight"? Or is Kurtz's routine based on Mr. Townsend's effect as well?

Jonathan how many phases were in your original routine?

[Jonathan Townsend]

Originally posted by Jay Wethington:
Jonathan how many phases were in your original routine?

The trick was performed in two seperate contexts. It was designed for use either as a conversation piece when using one (or more) borrowed quarters, or an interlude in a longer set when using my own walking liberty half dollars.

In routined closup, a round mirror was introduced and 'silver blobs' extracted which became coins. The coins across happened sometime later. As did a coinbox routine. At end, the coins where tossed back into the mirror. The 'kicker' there was that i switched the coins for a mylar ball. You can imagine the startled looks as the silver 'coins' 'bounced back'. Then did a pass of the mylar ball and 'tossed' that back into the mirror, leaving just the mirror as at the start.
This was what I was doing in NY then in college way back when.

I do recall that when around magicians I would usually do the coins across as a stand alone trick. After the second coin transit, most magicians were (amused?, shaken? stirred? stunned?) affected and it seemed anti climactic to do more at that point.

Not being a working pro, the trick was more often performed for friends and associates at odd moments and breaks in conversation.

So, to make a long story short: Most often the trick was performed as a simple coins across. Only when I was doing a routined performance did the trick become a part of something more.

I have heard good things about the aesthetics of Gary Kurtz's routine.

[Guest]

So Jonathan what is your one handed vanish of the last coin?

[Jonathan Townsend]

Originally posted by Ronnie Ramin:
So Jonathan what is your one handed vanish of the last coin?

Most simply, a one handed retention of a coin from the LH palm The viewing angles on this are a bit limited and will work for about a range of 90 degrees at about two to three steps back and beyond. Also helps to have a light on your hand to maximize the 'burn'.

It is so dependant upon good 'hold and hide' Ramsay type habits that it either works for you or not. If your audience has ANY feeling that you are holding out, the work was wasted. Done right, this will fool audiences, magicians and really impress actors and mimes.

I am looking at how to capture a performance of the whole routine so folks can see it. The move has been essentially 'exclusive by difficulty'.

If you have a good touch for the hold and hide stuff, then this could come easily to you. Otherwise, it is easier to try AFTER you learn to hold and hide. Or if you have a jacket or lap, or topit or friend in the audience or anything else, go ahead and use whatever works best for you.

-note...I lost some sleep over not giving a credit where due on this move. In 1977 or 1978 Ken Krenzel shared a coin sleight where a coin goes from palm to fingerpalm on LH using a completely different method, context and premise. Learning his sleight probably set the groudwork for mine. Thanks Ken! Happy Holidays :) -Jon

[Charlie Chang]

This is a great thread - particularly because the man who started it all is taking part.

I have a lot of thoughts on the fingertip coins across that might be of interest.

I perform this effect for audiences from one to a thousand. I recently performed at a festival in Spain and, as usual opened with Crowded Coins (Scottish Fly). It is a very strong trick for a lay audience - IF you understand it.

Here is a simple fact, however: the Fingertip Coins Across is stronger for magicians than it is for lay people.

I analysed this fact for several years before realising why. Magicians have a point of reference. They know that "standard" coins across do not happen visibly, therefore the fingertip version is new and novel.

Often the visual aspect of an effect deprives it of mystery. Raise Rise has the same problem as does any "visual colour change". Without that moment of concealment, an effect loses the point where the audience believes the "magic" to have happened.

I addressed this issue by altering the timing on Crowded Coins. I never make the vanish and appearance happen one after the other or even together. I show the coin has ARRIVED and by the time they look back it has GONE. You need to see me do the routine to fully appreciate the effect this has. I found this got a different reaction entirely.

I also initiated an inner script after discussing the effect with Juan Tamariz. Now the effect has a little more character.

Finally I decided to turn my audience into magicians! A terrible thing to do, I know.

Now I produce the coins and perform an entirely different, CLOSED, coins across. This is the effect mentioned by Larry Horowitz earlier in the thread.

The reason for this is to show them a solid, baffling coins across then offer to repeat it so they can SEE the coins go.

This was the turning point for the effect. Now the fintertip version got every ounce of reaction it deserved because it had a context within the mind of the audience - "Wow, now I can SEE it happen" rather than "that looks cool".

The other version is called "Sunday Morning Coins Across" and is currently unpublished. I'll speak to Richard, maybe he would like to publish it.

One last point - Townsend's writing on the last coin is invaluable advice and completely correct in my view. When performing my version (the open French Drop), I have found it better to revolve the left hand (with the palmed coin) and TAKE the other three. This really cleans up the left hand in the spectator's eyes. You then do the final vanish.

[Dave Shepherd]

I am very glad that Paul addressed the question of timing and audience perception.

Earlier in this thread, I believe--and certainly in talking about this effect with other magicians--I have read/heard the idea stated that we don't want to give the audience the impression that they are "being misdirected." I.e., that they will suspect that something happened while they were looking away.

I never fully understood this. It has always seemed to me that that moment when they are "misdirected" is akin to the moment of "magical motivation" about which many people have spoken (Al Schneider, Michael Skinner, etc.). If the audience goes into Tamariz's "dream state," then they realize that they are overwhelmed, and the experience of being overwhelmed is part of the magical experience.

Paul does it with the shifting of his gaze. Jamy Swiss does it with a slow, easy wave of both hands--necessary not only to somewhat cover the "work," but also to signal when the magic happens. Denis Behr, whose online videos look very nice, does it with a rather quick, simultaneous movement of both hands.

In other words, nobody whom I've seen does the trick with hands motionless, with the coins simply appearing in one hand and disappearing in the other.

Yes, we have methodological reasons for these things, but I think there are also magical reasons for moving your gaze, waving your hands, etc.

I very much like Paul's notion of preceding the effect with a "covered" three coins across. Paul, I assume this is after you have done the production phase more or less as published in Genii and your video.

Finally, I begin to recall, Paul, after reading your thoughts, how many times I have greatly improved a magic routine through rather subtle shifts in my timing and attitude. Sometimes these things can have a profound impact.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
Paul's routine utilizes a new manner of vanishing the coins, by sliding them behind the other coins with the thumb. He published this in his lecture notes, several years before anyone else utilized the idea (and several have, now).

Richard, I was using that method over 20 years ago with the three coins in the hat. Ask Swiss or Gallo. I thought you knew, I'm pretty sure I did this for you then. There were also some edge palm techniques in there (ways of recovering from the slide). That's also where the move Townsend refers to was used, a one-handed vanish of the last coin.

[Jonathan Townsend]

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
...a new manner of vanishing the coins, by sliding them behind the other coins with the thumb... (and several have, now).

Richard, I should have mentioned this before too. Just a few weeks after The Roth Lecture in NYC Geoff Latta surprised me with this technique. It was quite a stunner. He also did the 'Nowhere Palm' vanish and a version of 'Three Coins in the Hat' that would make a great and timely item to publish. :) -Jon

[Denis Behr]

Originally posted by R P Wilson:
I also initiated an inner script after discussing the effect with Juan Tamariz.

I'd be very interested in Juan Tamariz' thoughts on the effect. Could you elaborate a little on your discussion?
Thanks,
Denis <- loves Tamariz' thinking

[Steve Hook]

And the video clips of Denis's two 3-Flys sure look magical to me, especially the first, which is clearer photographically.

Steve H

[Jonathan Townsend]

Originally posted by Steve Hook:
And the video clips of Denis's two 3-Flys sure look magical to me

His work with Geoff Latta's 'Nowhere Palm' was so good I had to write to him. He is good. He also does some card work and has clips on the site.

[Steve Hook]

Jonathan:

Slightly off-topic, but did you see the "Nowhere Palm" on Denis's site?

Also, check out (you can click on this:) "How to lose a card in the middle of the deck" . Good fun!

Steve H

[Jonathan Townsend]

Originally posted by Steve Hook:
Slightly off-topic, but did you see the "Nowhere Palm" on Denis's site?

Yes, he uses it in his three flight. That is Geoff's name for the third finger curl palm which is almost an edge grip replacement. If I knew Geoff had released the move I would have gotten a one handed vanish and some transfers together to use it. He showed it as TOP SECRET back in 77 and I respect his work. Same as the technique for sliding a coin behind a spread of coins in 'Roth Hanging coins' type sequences.

[Dave Shepherd]

Where is Geoff's Nowhere Palm in print? (Geoff? Denis?)

It is a very cool move, and I would love to use it, but won't unless I can do the right thing.

[Guest]

On page 76 of Gary Kurtz' book "Unexplainable Acts" he details it and shows it in figure 33.

He says, "The technique used to vanish the third coin is Geoffrey Latta's previously unpublished application of Curl Palm to a one-hand vanish.

It is also on Gary's video "Creating Magic" video.

Jeff did you put it in print anywhere yourself? In 1990 Kurtz called it unpublished.

[Jonathan Townsend]

Originally posted by Jonathan Townsend:

Originally posted by Pete Biro:
[b]Why not take what you know of the effect and work out your own personal handling?

This may be worth a comment..[/b]

Some folks have taken the routine back to it's close up form. I saw one handling in NYC that stays open handed, and does not rely on backclipping.

This is probably a much more approachable handling than mine for most folks, and allows a magician audience to be looking at the hands more closely than my version. If you get into NYC to see the gang, ask if Matt is around.