Classic pass and certain variations thereof

[David Scollnik]

Okay, I've been practicing with cards for about a year now and I've been reading sources about the classic pass for a couple of months. These were somewhat ambiguous to me, and it wasn't until I viewed the first couple of sections of Kaufman's "On the Pass" video and part of Perlman's "BTPCM" Dvd that I saw what a pass should actually look like. But this raised a couple of questions:

1. Kaufman and others insert just the pinky finger into the break. Pearlman inserts his pinky and index fingers into the break (with the middle and ring fingers left on top) on his Dvd. Is this second approach a common variation, and is it one that I should consider or not? It seems to make the move a little easier, but also seems to make the move more visible.

2. When I _DO_ insert both the index finger and pinky into the break, I've found that certain finger pressures allow two variations on the pass, as described below:

2a: I can leave the top and bottom packets in the same order, but draw the top card on the bottom packet to the very bottom of the deck, almost invisibly and fairly quietly.

2b: With a slightly different set of finger pressures, I can switch the top and bottom packets except that I can simultaneously reverse the top card (i.e., flip it face up) of the original bottom packet and leave it in between the new top and bottom packets. This is sort of neat.

So, does anyone have advice about the variations I've described above in terms of their strengths or weaknesses? Have I described any moves or mistakes that I should be avoiding?

[Guest]

Originally posted by David Scollnik:

2a: I can leave the top and bottom packets in the same order, but draw the top card on the bottom packet to the very bottom of the deck, almost invisibly and fairly quietly.

Hi, David. You might want to take a look at the 'One Card Middle Pass' which is described in Card College, Vol.1.

[Guest]

Talking of variations - and sorry to barge in on your thread like this David - when doing the Riffle Pass, does anyone give any weight to pulling up and riffling only around 2/3rds of the lower packet, leaving a few cards behind onto which the top half drops? I find this helps disguise the shift in that the cards that remain in the hand appear as though they're the start the of the riffle. Does that make sense? Is this a legitimate/known variation on the Riffle Pass?

[Guest]

David,

Both of those are things which everyone who seriously works on the pass runs into. Welcome to the club. ;-)

Zafmagic; yes, that's a known variation. It's been done with just the bottom card, as well as with a block.

Best,

Geoff

[David Scollnik]

Thanks for the tip about the "one card middle pass" ... certainly that is pretty similar to my 2a result.

[Richard Kaufman]

All of these ideas, and many more you have not mentioned or discovered, are old news to those of us who've done the MANY forms of the Pass for decades. You should NEVER insert more than your little finger into the deck for any form of the Pass. If you see a Pass that requires more than one finger, it is usually best performed with a step instead of a break.
That should set you thinking ...
You should read the printed materials by Ken Krenzel and Derek Dingle, as well as Ralph Read's description in Tarbell. Skip the book by Ouellet.

[David Scollnik]

Thanks for the direct response concerning the pinkie finger (and for the references). That's exactly what I was really wondering, and was confused by some of the other material out there. [And to be fair to Pearlman, I think I slightly misdescribed the approach he uses on his Dvd.]

[pduffie]

ZafMagic asked:

Talking of variations - and sorry to barge in on your thread like this David - when doing the Riffle Pass, does anyone give any weight to pulling up and riffling only around 2/3rds of the lower packet, leaving a few cards behind onto which the top half drops? I find this helps disguise the shift in that the cards that remain in the hand appear as though they're the start the of the riffle. Does that make sense? Is this a legitimate/known variation on the Riffle Pass?

It's the first item in Edward Victor's More Magic of the Hands.

[Guest]

Thank you, Geoff and Peter.

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:

Skip the book by Ouellet.

Yikes! The only book i have that's dedicated to the Pass!

[Richard Kaufman]

Toss the Ouellet book in the trash.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:
Toss the Ouellet book in the trash.

Why do i get the impression you don't care too much for the Ouellet book? :) I might soon have no further use for it... the On The Pass DVD is on order! :D

[Edwin Corrie]

What is it that is so bad about the Gary Ouellet book? This is a genuine question - I went through it a while ago in an attempt to improve my pass, and found it quite helpful. A bit wordy, perhaps, but is the advice he gives misleading? It also provides a nice summary of the different types of pass.

[Richard Kaufman]

I really don't want to get into this since the guy died recently and it would considered bad taste.
Suffice it to say that the best classic style pass in the book is mine, which I taught Ouellet at his request. He then put it in the book with no credit AND he described it poorly because he didn't understand it.
This is also the problem with many of the other descriptions--he didn't do the sleights well, so his descriptions are not incisive, just the same old palaver repeated again.

[Bill Mullins]

He also put in Lee Asher's "Asher Twist" without permission.

I think he published a false shuffle of Homer Liwag's in his Fulminations column without permission as well.

[AMCabral]

Fred Robinson's handling is described in Ganson's Routined Manipulation; I hear that's supposed to be a good handling.

I think Peter Duffie's pass is based on it, and, well, wow...

-Tony

[Guest]

Hey, Richard, On The Pass just arrived... very useful indeed. The moustache looks nice! :D In fact, the DVD's inspired me more towards the Hermann Pass which i hadn't really given much consideration to. Slydini's misdirection for the Riffle Pass was interesting; started using it right away.

Originally posted by AntonioMCabral:
Fred Robinson's handling is described in Ganson's Routined Manipulation; I hear that's supposed to be a good handling.

This is the Pass i've been attempting for the past few months. I like this handling a lot.

[Edwin Corrie]

Sorry, it was a bit indiscreet of me to ask that - but thanks for the information.

I don't usually buy DVDs, but it looks like I'll have to give in and buy On the Pass.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Richard Kaufman:

Suffice it to say that the best classic style pass in the book is mine, which I taught Ouellet at his request. He then put it in the book with no credit AND he described it poorly because he didn't understand it.

Strange! Why didn't he understand it? Didn't you teach/demonstrate it correctly? :confused:

[themaestro]

Originally posted by Peter Duffie:
ZafMagic asked:

Talking of variations - and sorry to barge in on your thread like this David - when doing the Riffle Pass, does anyone give any weight to pulling up and riffling only around 2/3rds of the lower packet, leaving a few cards behind onto which the top half drops? I find this helps disguise the shift in that the cards that remain in the hand appear as though they're the start the of the riffle. Does that make sense? Is this a legitimate/known variation on the Riffle Pass?

It's the first item in Edward Victor's More Magic of the Hands.

More or less. Victor describes it for the classic pass, not the riffle pass. And ostensibly not for the purpose of hiding the shift, but so that the bottom portion of the deck is not disturbed.

Nowlin Craver
co-author "The Secret Art of Magic"
http://www.secretartofmagic.com

[pduffie]

The Maestro said:

More or less. Victor describes it for the classic pass, not the riffle pass. And ostensibly not for the purpose of hiding the shift, but so that the bottom portion of the deck is not disturbed.

Yes - that is correct. I was confusing "first items!" The first item in the first Victor book is the Riffle Pass.

[Guest]

... I've learned the basics from Mr. Kaufman's tape, but in the two years I have been working cards, I've come across s-o-o-o-o many variations: Draun's Midnight Pass, Hermann's Pass, Fisher's Gravity Pass---- But the one ZafMagic is referring to, I think, is called the Tan Hoc Chuan (spelling???) Pass, which places the select on the face of the deck. I first saw it on a Randy Wakeman tape... The top card(s) is the cover for the sleight, which is essentially a modified Hermann's Pass, and is very right-side sensitive.
...The select is at the face of the topmost packet, a break below it. The bottom packet is kicked forward into a right vertical position, the bottom portion of the top packet is dropped (placing select at the very bottom of the deck). The Vertical (original bottom)packet is then dropped back onto the new bottom - and that's it:)
... I like it, but it's simpler to do a Kelly Placement........
... I've only just discovered the talent of Derek Dingle, and now he's gone. Thank's Mr. K. for preserving this great man's magic in your wonderful book............

Rich Levinton

[Guest]

Originally posted by Rich Levinton:
But the one ZafMagic is referring to, I think, is called the Tan Hoc Chuan (spelling???) Pass, which places the select on the face of the deck. I first saw it on a Randy Wakeman tape... The top card(s) is the cover for the sleight, which is essentially a modified Hermann's Pass, and is very right-side sensitive.
...The select is at the face of the topmost packet, a break below it. The bottom packet is kicked forward into a right vertical position, the bottom portion of the top packet is dropped (placing select at the very bottom of the deck). The Vertical (original bottom)packet is then dropped back onto the new bottom - and that's it:)

This sounds a lot like The Combination Pass which i first saw on Ed Marlo's The Cardician DVD. It can be used to bring the selection to either the top or bottom of the deck.

The Riffle Pass variant i asked about earlier brings the selection to the top. It wouldn't work in bringing it to the bottom by virtue of the bottom un-riffled stock.

[AMCabral]

I remember seeing the "bottom card cover pass" described somewhere relatively recent and then finding a description in Gaultier's Magic Without Apparatus. The page reference escapes me at the moment, but it's in there.

-Tony

[Edwin Corrie]

The Tan Hock Chuan pass is in Card Finesse Vol. 1 (Racherbaumer). And I believe the Bottom Card Cover Pass is in Cardmagic (Kaufman), though it's called something different.

I've found that it's also possible to do a simultaneous top AND bottom card cover pass, but frankly I doubt if there would be much call for it.