Modern Coin Magic 4 dvd set

[Guest]

I have just seen an ad for the "Modern Coin Magic 4 dvd set".
Does someone can give me a feedback on this dvd set?

[Guest]

The trailers looks very good.

http://magicmakersinc.com/ModernCoinMag ... magic.html

http://media.penguinmagic.com/movies/products/7469a.wmv

And, the content list is very impressive:
http://magicmakersinc.com/ModernCoinMag ... clist.html

[Guest]

Do a search on The Magic Cafe, there's a fair amount there I recall...

[Guest]

More expensive than the book by 2x.
Useful if you lack the imagination to figure out what the moves are supposed to look like.

If you have money to burn it's not a bad investment, but if you are trying to learn coin magic the book is a better way to spend your money.

I bought it out of curiosty and because the last time I read Bobo's in any detail was 15-20 years ago. It will probably be in the swap meet pile for next year.

[Guest]

I disagree with Bill - I know some people prefer books, but I prefer watching DVDs, and it has nothing to do with lack of imagination. It is just a medium from which I get more when learning "spatial" stuff. Computer manuals, gadget manuals, technical literature - I can read it all 'til it comes out of my ears. But for some reason, I find it hard to learn magic from books. I prefer to SEE it - and whether that is live or on DVD is irrelevant. They are both useful.

As far as the DVD set is concerned, I found it to be pretty good. Fairly unimaginative presentation (I prefer Roth, for example), but well done nonetheless. And nice to have every sleight you will ever need in one place :)

Good value for money I thought

Bob

[Guest]

Bob,
It's the old "visual" learner thing again. I don't buy it. Of course it's "easier" to learn by watching than by reading... but our brains process information differently when watching.

I was taught the Diagonal Palm Shift (a move harder than pretty much everything in Bobo's) by personal instruction. I used the move, and fooled knowledgeable magicians with it for years.

Then, when I got an ASCII copy of Expert At The Card Table, on a lark I converted the instructions for the move to "left handed" to see what it would be like to have instructions that were written for me instead of having to translate on the fly, as I have for twenty years.

You know what? In learning from personal instruction I had MISSED a very important point about how the move works. I got it from a careful re-reading of the material.

So sure, it's easier to watch video, but I think often that the ease of use comes at a cost.

Originally posted by Bob Walder:
And nice to have every sleight you will ever need in one place :)

I'm assuming the smiley is because you are kidding. Because, not so much, from my perspective.

Other than the basic concealments, and the finger palm vanish I suspect there are fewer than half a dozen things from Bobo's that I still use.

Much of the stuff that's "standard" is, now pretty sub-standard. Even simple things like the classic palm vanish have been replaced by more advanced handlings. Al Schneider's handing of the CP vanish is so much better than what's in Bobo's that I wince when I see someone do it the old way.

[Marc Rehula]

Originally posted by Bill Duncan:
It's the old "visual" learner thing again. I don't buy it. Of course it's "easier" to learn by watching than by reading... but our brains process information differently when watching.

Why dismiss the 'easier' way as inferior? I don't buy that either. 'Easier' -- even in quotes -- is still 'easier'! You yourself point out, Bill, that our brain processes reading, watching, and doing differently. I think the reading AND the watching are vital to achieve the doing. (Especially with coin work. I'm often able to 'get' card magic from books alone. Coin magic doesn't come to my hands naturally.)

The best way (sorry to sound difinitive) is to read the book, and supplement that work that with the visual. Since discipleship among magicians is waning (sniff), having DVDs are a great source to get visuals, in order to pull things together.

I think that Bobo's book is a good illustration. The book is excellent and comprehensive (even if a little outdated, as Bill points out). It's been a great starting place for coin magic for decades, and remains so. But after going through the book, you WILL need visuals to master the sleights and pull off the routines. I found the DVD a great supplement to Bobo's book, a necessary next step.

The Bobo DVDs, as Bob points out, aren't the most imaginative production, but it remains pretty true to the book. It's a lot of material, but it lays a solid groundwork for the beginner. I recommend them.

[Brad Henderson]

I think Bill was expressing his exasperation at those who use the "visual learner" tag as an excuse. While it might be comforting to believe that this 'handicap' frees one from the responsibility for having to know anything about the history or lineage of magic prior to 1988, and it gives permission to children to re-release ideas easily found dusty books but not (currently) filmed on the vibrant streets, the gross fact remains that reading IS a visual process.

So, those willing to play the 'poor me' card do so improperly. Why? Well, perhaps they were too lazy to read the books on the different styles of learning to find a proper excuse. (Which gives me an idea - when I was getting my Master's in Education I should have just FILMED all of our text books - rock soundtrack, me walking up to strangers and talking about the zone of proximal development, that would be keeping it real!)

So:

Can video be a viable tool for education? Yes, it can add elements of information which cannot be easily conveyed in text.

Can video replace text as a learning media? No. It cannot and remain true to its nature.

Are there visual learners? Yes, there are.

Do visual learners have a difficult time learning from books? No, by definition they do not. Visual learners well through reading.

Who then has a hard time learning from books?

Well, for two, the lazy and illiterate. Read some posts over at the cafe, or be lucky enough to receive an email from some of the children who make DVD's for ellusionist/penguin, et al. You will know why they NEED DVD's.

[Guest]

Brad, Bill, be quiet!!!

Don't give away all our secrets!

[Guest]

As a teacher who just finished his credential program, I can tell you with great confidence that everyone has different ways in which they learn best. Visual, symbolic (i.e. reading), auditory, kinesthetic, etc.

The primary difference between (the majority of) magic books vs. DVDs is not the mode of instruction, but the amount of content. Many trick descriptions in well-written books have far more information than comparable descriptions communicated on DVD. If the DVD went into the same amount of detail, most of the criticisms of DVDs voiced here would become moot.

[Guest]

Dont get me started on contemporary learning theory Pete, or well be here all day. :)

I personally believe that no one is a book learner and that we are all visual learners to begin with. It is only through reading and studying books that we develop the ability to learn from them.

In my review of Paul Wilsons Royal Road to Card Magic DVD set for M.U.M. I noted with some surprise that the DVD format added unexpected value to the book in that you got to see, and be fooled by, some of the effects that rely on a glimpse or a key card or pre-arrangement. I think many students overlook those effects because they dont have cool moves to learn. By seeing them you begin to understand why you should spend time working on them too. Those are the effects Mike Skinner used to use to bitch-slap the local boys when he came to town to lecture. I know, I was one of them, on several occasions. And when he did, all he would say is: Its in Royal Road.

The point is DVDs can provide value by showing something thats hard to visualize (like a top change) or hard to imagine from bare text alone. I dont dispute that.

But in the case of Bobos I simply dont see much added value from seeing the stuff done, because much of what is hard to imagine isnt really. Its just plain stupid looking and if you had simply followed the directions in Bobos you would do it right. And it would still look silly.

I should stop now before the guardians of the classics arrive

[Guest]

I cut my own post off, but what I was going to follow up with was that I think, personally, that there is great value in learning moves and technique by video, because it helps you understand how the move is supposed to look. Whereas learning presentations and the like is often better done through books, because it reduces the chance that you will copy the performer's style.

On a related note I got Homer Liwag's "CoinOne" DVD and watched it yesterday. It's a fascinating combination of book and video. The moves are shown in video, but there is no voice-over; the relevant instructions are overlaid on the screen, with lines connecting the points being made in the text and the relevant part of the video. So for example if you have to put your finger a certain way, text on the screen tells you what to do and a line points out the relevant finger.

I'm not a big consumer of magic DVDs, but I would highly recommend anyone who makes them to watch this video.

[Guest]

I agree totally with Pete re: the Coin One DVD. I haven't viewed the whole thing, just parts and I'm impressed by the quality of the production. Also, a viewing of the basic routine was also very impressive. I'm going to study this one well.

A great job and one that others who produce DVD's should try to emulate.

Adrian

[Guest]

Originally posted by Bill Duncan:
Bob,
It's the old "visual" learner thing again. I don't buy it.

Please yourself - I prefer to read the book AND watch a video showing how the trick should look. There is a world of difference IMHO to learning the technique and viewing a PERFORMANCE of the trick

Originally posted by Bill Duncan:

Originally posted by Bob Walder:
And nice to have every sleight you will ever need in one place :)

I'm assuming the smiley is because you are kidding.

No it's not

Bob

[Guest]

Originally posted by mrehula:

The best way (sorry to sound difinitive) is to read the book, and supplement that work that with the visual. Since discipleship among magicians is waning (sniff), having DVDs are a great source to get visuals, in order to pull things together.

I think that Bobo's book is a good illustration. The book is excellent and comprehensive (even if a little outdated, as Bill points out). It's been a great starting place for coin magic for decades, and remains so. But after going through the book, you WILL need visuals to master the sleights and pull off the routines. I found the DVD a great supplement to Bobo's book, a necessary next step.

I think you are spot on -my thoughts exactly

Bob

[Guest]

Originally posted by Pete McCabe:
I cut my own post off, but what I was going to follow up with was that I think, personally, that there is great value in learning moves and technique by video, because it helps you understand how the move is supposed to look. Whereas learning presentations and the like is often better done through books, because it reduces the chance that you will copy the performer's style.

Another excellent point. Why can't we use both? I am neither lazy nor illiterate, but I DO prefer to see the techniques and routines I read about in books brought to life on video. That should not make me an inferior being to those who think we should ONLY read books.

I am sure Bill never watches a movie based on a book either because it would be much better to visualise everything from the original text, huh?

Bob

[Brad Henderson]

Bob,

I do not think anyone faults someone who chooses to expand their understanding of material through the use of several learning sources. What _I_ have a problem with are people who say "I cannot learn from books because I am a visual learner." This is a VERY different situation. We all benefit from seeing an expert model. However there are many who play the "woe is me" card, and even then do so without an understanding of the handicap which they claim to possess.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Bob Walder:
That should not make me an inferior being to those who think we should ONLY read books.

Whoa, I dont recall anyone saying anything about anyone being inferior or suggesting people should only read books. In my own library about 35-40% of the items are videos of one form or another (I still have a bunch of VHS). I would suggest that the current nonsense about some people being visual learners is just that. We are ALL visual learners.

And I agree with you that many methods and effects (a top change or a pass for example) are best learned by visual instruction and might be impossible to really learn without some sort of visual instruction. I just don't think that applies to this work.


My point was that in this instance, Modern Coin Magic, the video didnt add enough value to the learning process to warrant its purchase. In my opinion, the stuff the average reader has trouble visualizing is the stuff that just plain looks stupid and shouldnt be done because its so horribly unnatural. Its hard to visualize how its supposed to look because its unnatural looking when its done right.

As for seeing the tricks performed they arent performed on the video, they are demonstrated and thats a whole different thing.

I am sure Bill never watches a movie based on a book either because it would be much better to visualise everything from the original text, huh?

I know this was meant to be just a nasty remark but what the heck, Ill answer it anyway.

That would depend on the book. If its a Steven King novel, Ill watch the movie because his writing isnt all the exciting, but his stories are often pretty good. If its a Kurt Vonnegut novel forget it. No one has been able to bring his work to the screen.