Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

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Brad Henderson
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Re: Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

Postby Brad Henderson » October 18th, 2019, 8:09 pm

My phone always capitalizes Germaine.

Roger, Copperfield has many more followers than that. Does that mean we call Copperfield’s magical work ‘social media magic.’?

As I said in the close up magic reference, the issue isn’t an ancillary goal of the magic. It’s an attempt to define a new type of magic. This is magic which is meant to be consumed in a very special way and takes advantage of obstacles and opportunities unique to the condition of being experienced over a media.

Sure, social media magic is a thing. But the important and RELEVANT (capitalized that whole word just to be safe) issue is the new type of magic being performed and created - and the common, dynamic, and effective element of that is its experience via a screen. Hence media magic is a better descriptor and I think we need to embrace this as a valid concept.

Free the media magicians to explore everything in their arsenal from ‘camera tricks’ to forced perspective to stooges. Embrace the thing for what it is.

And audiences, becoming aware of and gaining an appreciation for that type of magic, will know what to expect when they seek it out, and know what not to expect when encountering more traditional types of magic.

(And as shin lim may be the most successful practitioner of this new genre of magic, this is all definitely about him.)

Kent Gunn
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Re: Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

Postby Kent Gunn » October 18th, 2019, 8:47 pm

Brad,

If you can capitalize Germain, capitalize Shin Lim. It wasn't an oversight. You're being petty.

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Re: Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

Postby Travis » October 18th, 2019, 9:07 pm

Shin is a great guy and a good friend. This is all news to me and, as noted earlier, I've seen nothing about this in the Twitterverse. Nevertheless, I wish him the very best. He's super creative and a natural with difficult card sleights. Things that would take me months to get right, he seems able to do almost instantly. I was always amazed by that. It's just seems to come very naturally to him.

I'm more into subtleties and psychology, though,not knuckle-busting sleights or cardistry. However, if you saw Shin making the talk show rounds shortly after his AGT win, more often than not he was performing R. Paul Wilson's Con Cam Coincidencia, and killing with it. I saw him do this often when we were working together in Macau, when asked to perform something for a group on-the-fly, and it always drew gasps. Of course, it's a great trick, but as most of you know, it's not the sort of thing magicians usually associate with him. He did it beautifully.

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Re: Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

Postby Mark Tams » October 19th, 2019, 5:44 am

Shin Lim’s magic is designed to be experienced on a screen. It’s ideal for Instagram. He deserves great credit for being a master of that venue. But it doesn’t play on a stage for more than about 5 minutes. I’ve seen him live - and without that screen it’s just a guy who’s throwing [censored] behind a table in a very dark room. (I also saw him lecture and it’s clear he doesn’t understand the effects he thinks he is improving. His improvements aren’t. Unless one’s goal is to translate them into Instagram friendly performances. I don’t think that’s necessarily good magic or good for magic..)


I am going to agree with Brad on this and here's why . . . I was influenced in part by a comment Roger Klause always said - "Fool their mind . . . not their eye".

With that said, Istagram, Twitter, FB, social media magic, et al, is what it is . . . media magic that fools the eye. I believe most of what Shim Lim performs fools the eye and doesn't challenge the intellect of the mind.

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Re: Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

Postby Brad Henderson » October 19th, 2019, 12:48 pm

Kent, my phone capitalizes what it chooses to capitalize. If you’re going to focus on the typography and not the content of the message then our priorties are clearly different and I’m not sure we will have much to discuss.


Travis, no one has commented on how nice of a person shin may be. But I think that’s one of the big problems in our art, we make decisions based on popularity and not other more relevant qualities. As to being able to do hard moves, I’m not sure that makes one a good magician. In fact, a lot of tnose hard moves are interesting only for the sake of being hard. As jack mentioned, shin was at a taom and we got to see him do these hard moves. And yes he did them. But should you look at a double turnover and think, ‘wow. That’s really hard to do.’ In fact, if you think that, that’s likely proof it’s a terrible move.

Which brings me to my earlier point - doing something in a new way is not doing something in a better way. A flip flop flashy one handed spin over double lift looks great on a screen for people who appreciate juggling. It’s not necessarily good magic, or good for magic.

Media magic privledges flash and movement over Wonder and depth. Media magic encourages magicians to make the move the magic. Card changes become card switches. The appreciation isn’t a magical one, but one of technique.

Now, that’s not to say those aren’t valid choices. But they are specific choices dictated by the new media.

And I’m not saying these choices don’t have an audience or can’t lead to a kind of success. Clearly they do.

But this is a different kind of magic and we should embrace it and give it the legitimacy we have stage magic, close up magic, parlor magic etc.

We don’t have to all like it.

I certainly don’t care for it. (Though there was one guy on vine who did the most amazing magical things whose work I thought is a great example of media magic.) but it’s here and we should be honest about its strengths and limitations.

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Re: Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

Postby Kent Gunn » October 19th, 2019, 3:26 pm

Brad,

I watched some of Shin Lim's video clips. I don't understand how what he is doing is so very different than other magicians. I'm not a fan of some of the techniques he uses, at all. I don't see how what he does deserves a category all his own. The vignettes I watched were all brief, perhaps they had a television show requirement to fit between the commercials. Shin Lim had a show, in Orlando. I chose not to go, so I can't speak to how he comes off in a full show. Brad, has his show rolled through Austin. Did you go?

Some of the tricks he did were great, in my eyes. He obviously pleased his audience on AGT. That is a performers job. He's won FISM, no Instagram category there.

I have a dim memory that you taught English at one point. It had something to do with James Joyce. Punctuation has meaning, don't blame your phone for your indolence. It's rude to not capitalize the name of someone you're beating up.

Look up typography. I don't think that word means what you think it means. Perhaps my memory of you teaching English is false. Probably Shin Lim's extensive pre-show work put it there. ;)

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Re: Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

Postby Brad Henderson » October 19th, 2019, 8:02 pm

Kent. I never taught English. My interest in capitalization exists exactly so far as you will see realized in my posts. If that bothers you so, you are under no obligation to read them.

I don’t think shin deserves a category all his own. I think media magic does. It’s much bigger than he. It includes all magic created to be viewed by the screen, and by extension all magic produced by manipulation of that media. So criss angles televised work - which can only be experienced in many cases via the screen - would be media magic. Is would the magic shin perform that is viewed by the audience on a screen. It would include Melies’s
Filmed magic effects. It would include those amazing vine videos that one guy used to do where he would leap into his own clothing and the like.

Thanks to new technology a whole type of magic is now possible. I a lot of people want to denigrate it and dismiss it as camera tricks.

We could do that. But it isn’t going away and perhaps some day we will find someone who knows how to use the techniques for really amazing work.

We don’t push back when we label a stage magician a stage magician, would we? Why should we resist the acknowledgement of a type of magic that can only exist - not on a stage - but a screen.

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Re: Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

Postby Joe Lyons » October 19th, 2019, 9:56 pm

Brad - you’re right. New technology has always created new categories in any field and media magic is actually pretty entertaining when done right. Defining it as such should eliminate some divisiveness.
The reason Kent thought you taught English is valid - this is from an old post (good memory Kent!).
Brad Henderson wrote:I know when I had to teach JAmes Joyce's Portrait of an Artist as a Young Man in High School English, I would have been lost without the insights provided by scholars and the author himself.

Kent - you’re right. Shin Lim didn’t win FISM by one angle magic and if he had - more power to him.

Hopefully I got the punctuation correct. ;)

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Re: Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

Postby Jonathan Townsend » October 20th, 2019, 1:11 am

Sorry to hear Shim Lin's show did not work out. I hope he puts together something which works better for long format presentation and live theater audiences.

On the technology side - it's customizable almost to the point described in John Brunner's Stand on Zanzimbar where TV shows change character appearances to match the TV owner's preferences. I'm not sure where we are with replacing parts of a screen image with a data stream in real time. All well and good for theater/virtual magic. New tools, new tricks :)
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Brad Henderson
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Re: Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

Postby Brad Henderson » October 20th, 2019, 11:20 am

As a senior we were assigned books to teach to the class. Of course, if you’ve read Joyce, you would find my eccentric capitalization easy to interpret, by comparison. (And my use of capitalization in the post Kent must have remembered should have made it clear that nothing is meant to be conveyed by its inconsistent application).

I started an essay on the importance of creating a new genre of magic for the new approach that has taken hold. I had spoken with RK about publishing it but didn’t finish as I am unsure how best to make the case for it in a single essay.

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Re: Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

Postby Kent Gunn » October 20th, 2019, 12:03 pm

Brad,

I can't imagine a world where high school students teach one another about Joyce. I'm certain your lecture was well-intentioned. I hope, looking back you know now how little we understood about anything at sixteen.

Effing modernist authors . . . Flounting perfectly reasonable rules, designed to enhance written communication. It's like Shin Lim breaking your rules for magic.

Joyce, Faulkner, Elliot and Pound will be remembered not because they purposefully challenged convention, but because they could write. Shin Lim will be remembered because he can do magic people love.

Shin Lim has succeeded financially beyond most magicians wildest fantasies. He did so by evolving the magic he does to meet the times. He's a great magician. This is something you're unable to acknowledge.

Your punishment for not realizing we don't need an essay putting Shin Lim into a box you're concocting to demean his success is to read Ulysses. I know it's a severe punishment, you've brought this on yourself.

KG

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Re: Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

Postby Kent Gunn » October 20th, 2019, 12:34 pm

Flount should be flout. My abject apologies.

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Re: Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

Postby Joe Lyons » October 20th, 2019, 12:58 pm

Kent Gunn wrote:Your punishment for not realizing we don't need an essay putting Shin Lim into a box you're concocting to demean his success is to read Ulysses.


And now it’s gotten ugly.....

Bill Mullins
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Re: Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

Postby Bill Mullins » October 20th, 2019, 4:25 pm

I didn't take Brad's comments to demean Shin Lim's success, but rather that his success should be viewed through a different filter than we view stage acts or close-up acts.

Brad Henderson
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Re: Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

Postby Brad Henderson » October 20th, 2019, 4:34 pm

Kent, All the AP English students were assigned a book to teach the class. I got Joyce. I’m glad I did.

First, where did I say I had rules for magic?

I didn’t.

But that doesn’t change the fact that we have genres of magic - and that doesn’t change the fact that the history of magic is the history of magicians adapting to new and ever changing genres.

Second, how is it demeaning to recognize someone as an expert in a particular genre of magic? Is it demeaning to acknowledge that Don Alan was a close up magician? Is it rude to state that Cardini was a manipulator?

Why is it demeaning to acknowledge that someone is a media magician - in fact, one of the best?

Third. Why do magicians take everything so god damned personally? What I see here is people who are hung up because they like shin or think he’s a nice guy.

I have no comments to either.

What I care about is that we have at our hands right now an entirely new genre of magic that operates differently, has different obstacles and opportunities, that have never existed before. We have people making magic in this new genre AND we have controversy regarding it.

Jibrizy for example has a large social media following and uses stooges to produce his reaction. Criss Angle built a career performing material on TV that he cannot perform in real life. People take issue with that.

Rather than demean these people for their work, I’m suggesting we embrace it - fully.

We don’t condemn the stage magician for using trapdoors or the close up magician who uses their lap, do we? So why should we demean media magicians for taking advantage of the opportunities offered them by their venue - including the direct manipulation thereof?

By acknowledging a new type of magic we give legitimacy to its exploration and we protect audiences from confusion. Many people were disappointed in angle’s Live show because he couldn’t do the kind of thing people saw on TV.

People don’t expect to see someone produce a lion in the magic castle close up room, and people don’t expect to see close up tricks on a stage.

In the days of vaudeville people went to see the manipulator expecting to see great displays of sleight of hand, not comedy skits.

Media magic is here to stay and it behooves us to acknowledge this and inform our audiences about it in ways that lead to their increased appreciation and clear expectations.

It find it odd that the person who is advocating for embracing the new reality is condemned for trying to impose rules or condemn people for their new found success.

That’s ridiculous and speaks to this idiocy of people taking things personally.

The reality is shin’s success is because he is a master of this new type of magic. Jibrizy is a success because he is exploring this new type of magic with its new rules and obstacles.

How is accepting this and attempting to explore the new reality a bad thing?

To me the push back to accepting the existence of media magic is the real opposition to change.

And please - I would hope we were smart enough here not to play the ‘well, he makes money doing it’ card as if that means anything. And to suggest that any criticism must be the result of jealousy is childish. And who cares what someone does that I or someone else hasn’t.

Some people are interested but thinking about magical issues. Some people are good at analysis. Some people are great at performing. Some people are great at marketing. Some people can do one and not another, doesn’t mean their views can’t be valuable simply because they don’t have an interest in doing what one needs to do to gry on TV.

Jim Steinmeyer and Charles Reynolds never stared in their own TV magic shows, but I would listen to anything either man had to say about magic.

Why magicians insist on making things personal is beyond me. It’s the type of childish act that keeps us from advancing as a legitimate artform.

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Re: Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

Postby skmayhew » October 20th, 2019, 8:06 pm

Not sure how to reconcile that ^ ... with this :

Brad Henderson wrote:
The venue for what he does is Instagram.

^ THAT’S an insult.


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Re: Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

Postby Jackpot » October 20th, 2019, 8:24 pm

^
Excellent point. Mr. Henderson's initial posts in this thread were, to be kind, provocative. He has been backing away from his initial tone as the thread has progressed. It's too bad that he has alienated many, what he has written since then makes sense.
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Re: Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

Postby Steve Mills » October 20th, 2019, 10:43 pm

Jackpot wrote:^
Excellent point. Mr. Henderson's initial posts in this thread were, to be kind, provocative. He has been backing away from his initial tone as the thread has progressed. It's too bad that he has alienated many, what he has written since then makes sense.


Believe me, life is better when he's on "ignore".
I'm a living example that if you speak softly, you will get hit by a big stick.

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Re: Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

Postby Ian Kendall » October 21st, 2019, 6:40 am

In an almost relevant thing, this popped up on my Twitter this morning:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1186000217667178498

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Re: Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

Postby Joe Lyons » October 21st, 2019, 9:51 am

Ian Kendall wrote:In an almost relevant thing, this popped up on my Twitter this morning:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1186000217667178498


His name is Zach King and he is, no doubt, the vine creator Brad references earlier.
He has 4.4 million YouTube subscribers.

Shin Lim -excellent magician, AGT winner, FISM winner, Penn and Teller contestant and Vegas performer has 736,000.

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Re: Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

Postby Jack Shalom » October 21st, 2019, 11:38 am

Jibrizy for example has a large social media following and uses stooges to produce his reaction. Criss Angel built a career performing material on TV that he cannot perform in real life. People take issue with that.


Shin Lim is nothing like that. He doesn't use stooges. He uses sleight of hand and clever gaffs to achieve his effects. Brad may have an interesting concept about media magicians, but Shin Lim is a poor example with which to make the case. Zach King, on the other hand, is an excellent example.

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Re: Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

Postby Brad Henderson » October 21st, 2019, 11:57 am

That’s just it, Jack. They are ALL great examples. They all take advantage of the nature of the media through which their work is meant to be experienced.

We don’t condemn tv shows for picking enthusiastic audience memebers, why should we condemn jibrizy for using stooges?

Because we are judging him based on the expectations of a different venue/genre.

Well. He isn’t performing in those older venues/genres and to keep chomping at the bit being upset people are taking advantage of the opportunities afforded them is ridiculous.

Should we have condemned Robert houdin for taking advantage of the scientific advances which became available to him? Do we condemn hooker because he could only do his magic in his carriage house with its gas lighting and carefully controlled angles?

I acknowledge that the pioneers of tv magic worked hard to maintain the trust of the audience - using TV merely as a conduit to present the traditional magic genres being explored. I understand why they did that, and part of me hates to see the inevitable loss of trust.

But that horse is out of the barn. (And we can discuss why, I think two performers in particular did a lot to destroy that trust .) but the reality is, we don’t have a magic community anymore that cares about the well being of the art. They use the art, rather than serve the art. So arguments to keep magic presented on a screen ‘honest’ fall on deaf ears.

The only path now is to educate an audience so they know the difference between media magic and the various live genres.

As to my initial Instagram comment - it must be taken into context with the accusation I insulted Derek delgaudio in another thread. It was a reference to that exchange - though as I know for a FACT many magicians do not care for magic that can only exist on instagram etc, it was hardly controversial.

Having said that, i don’t care for media magic for the most part precisely because, as jack pointed out, the techniques currently in use are (as one might expect in a new genre) the least subtle and most obvious. Also, the type of magic that tends to work best over media is largely visual and superficial. That’s not to say there isn’t value in either, but I can recognize that some people enjoy it while not caring for it myself.

Which brings me to an important point - we can acknowledge a new genre of magic. We can acknowledge people who are the top exponenrs of it - and still not like it.

Taste is personal. And it gets into the way of artistic appreciation

I have always admired what jack goldfinger told me - he prefers not to think in terms of good and bad magicians but skilled versus unskilled magicians.

Good and bad too easily becomes about taste. Some people might hate illusion magic, but Copperfield is unquestionable a skilled and intentional magician. I don’t love a lot of the modern manipulation acts - but that doesn’t mean I can’t respext those who clearly are skilled and have conceived of an act with intention.

So, yes, I don’t care for ‘Instagram’ Magic. It doesn’t fit with my value systems as a magician or artist. I take no stock in ‘likes’ as currency. I prefer to present my magic in the most potentially impactful manner - which is never through a screen which always dilutes the experience.

But it’s my distaste for media magic which has made me its champion. I spent time thinking about why I didn’t like it and that allowed me to see it for what it is.
Last edited by Brad Henderson on October 21st, 2019, 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

Postby Brad Henderson » October 21st, 2019, 12:07 pm

Steve Mills wrote:
Jackpot wrote:^
Excellent point. Mr. Henderson's initial posts in this thread were, to be kind, provocative. He has been backing away from his initial tone as the thread has progressed. It's too bad that he has alienated many, what he has written since then makes sense.


Believe me, life is better when he's on "ignore".


If my thoughts on magic so negatively impact your life, You might want to rethink the quality of your life.


I think this says far more about you than me

(Again I ask, why must magicians take things so god damned personally. No wonder we aren’t taken seriously as an art form.)

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Re: Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

Postby Bill Marquardt » October 22nd, 2019, 9:30 am

Brad Henderson wrote: ...
(Again I ask, why must magicians take things so god damned personally. No wonder we aren’t taken seriously as an art form.)


That is certainly true. I once made a generalized sarcastic comment on this forum about needing reviewers to tell me what marketed effects I like, and a magician immediately responded by calling me a dirty name and telling me that I was unable to accept opinions that did not agree with mine. The post had ZERO to do with him. The irony of that situation is that I agree with that magician's opinions probably more than 90% of the time.

Anyway, as to Shin Lim, I believe he is a very talented magician who made a couple of mistakes early in his career. He has come a long way since then. I would guess that his show being cancelled has more to do with situations in Las Vegas.

I can accept "media magic" as a genre, but I really don't care for the way some of it is accomplished. Some time ago, relative to a discussion on another board, I created a video in which I used camera tricks to make coins appear and disappear "impossibly." I left that video on my Youtube page without any links. Somehow a magician stumbled onto it a few weeks later and wrote to tell me what a fantastic magician I was. I am pretty good as a videographer; not so good as a magician.

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Re: Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

Postby Bob Coyne » October 22nd, 2019, 11:17 am

I think "media magic" is a very useful term! It encapsulates something we've all seen, which leads to the question of what are some of the main attributes and techniques that distinguish media magic from merely presenting a regular magic routine on video? I think this applies to both the deception/secret itself and to the presentation. A few that I've seen (and/or that are mentioned in this thread):

* The most blatant and extreme case would be outright camera fraud where what you're seeing is not what actually happened. For example digitally altering or removing frames or the audio in order to hide the secret. This is much like special effects in movies, and is actually the least interesting.
* Related to that would be the use of black art and other color space type things where limitations in the camera's/video's dynamic range is exploited. And its possible also to exploit the video's spatial/pixel resolution, depth of field, and frame rate.
* Another, sightly more subtle form, is performing routines with extreme angle restrictions that only work because of the exact camera position. A variation of this would be to restrict the field of view so that the main action is faithfully recorded, but the cleanup is out of frame, though this can be done by just cutting out those frames as above.
* I would also include presentational idioms and techniques that are unique to (or dominant in) media magic (vs just those that are used to disguise the secret). E.g. including reaction shots of audience members. Those can be very effective and enhance the perception of the magic. Much like how laugh tracks are used to prime the TV audience to know where to react in a sitcom. Or much like a stage performer using applause line or the use of spot lights to add to the drama of a stage performance. A variation in this realm would be cutting to a close up of the hands to see the magic with great clarity and dramatic effect (possibly exploiting angle restrictions to increase deceptiveness, etc).
* And there can be many other presentational aspects and variations made possible by the media, e.g. using jump cuts to spice up the presentation in more random ways (I've seen this a lot). And there can be more cinematic techniques/framing used to put the magic into a fuller story context that adds to its "meaning." There could also be audio techniques and effects that enhance the presentation in ways that are not easily replicated in other media or performance venues.

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Re: Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

Postby Brad Henderson » October 22nd, 2019, 5:57 pm

Bob

You get it.

One issue is that all magic presented via a screen is media magic. The existence of a camera and the experience of watching through a screen is always different than the ‘reality’ that was experienced to create the recorded artifact. Having said that, in many cases, what we really are seeing is traditional venue/genre magic being captured and replicated as best as possible.

BUT it isn’t the same. Reality tv simply does not exist.

And while we can get lost arguing over how many pixels must dance on the head of a wand for something to be media magic, there are clear examples that exist AND there is the possibility
Of really artful approaches to this new magic (you allude to some of them) that might eventually create a unique magical experience that can only
Be experienced via a screen - and in a good way!

I won’t go into it but I have thought about what that would be, and it does require a great understanding on artful cinematography as well as grounding in the socialogical/psychological aspects which inform screen based experiences.

Right now we are seeing an early mannerist period in the genre where the means of expression are being explored sometimes in ways where nothing is being expressed. Magicians are taking advantage of the methodological opportunities. I think there are other presentational and emotional and . . . Opportunities to be explored as well.

I look forward to the artist who comes along and really creates something wonderful using all aspects of the media available to him or her - ushering in a really new way to experience magic that isn’t just a series of attempts to compensate from the dilution of impact which always results from experiencing magic through a screen.

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Re: Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

Postby Mark Tams » October 23rd, 2019, 6:49 am

I think this thread serves a very important point in time. Several years back, we called certain close-up performers . . . jugglers. Now through the evolution of time and sincere opinions, we now have a name of this type of performance . . . Cardistry. It fits, it's correct and it's here to stay.

I believe Brad is helping all of us identify that there is a new type of magic that isn't just 1)stage, 2) parlor, 3) close-up, 4) cardistry.

Media magic does exist. I'm not sure if that is the name that will stick long-term . . . but for now it suffices. And for now, I think more and more are accepting that it does exist.

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Re: Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

Postby Diego » October 23rd, 2019, 10:58 am

Looking thru over the last hundred years of of show business publications like THE BILLBOARD, a story that plays over and over is the reaction/response to new technology....phonograph, (who wants some creepy furniture that talks?!)...radio, (if they hear you on the radio for free, they won't want to see you in person or buy your records)...movies...talking movies, (a fad, won't last) TV, (they won't go to the theater to see movies or shows if they can see that on TV).
Each time, emerging technology is at first ignored, ridiculed, feared, fought, and then eventually embraced.

I always remember while in a cell phone store, a famous movie director/producer looking at a movie clip playing on an iPhone, said, "Ben Hur" or "2001" was NOT intended to be seen this way." I then played a scene from, "The Jazz Singer" on the phone, and told him, "Hey not to worry, remember, it's only a fad, it will never last."

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Brad Jeffers
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Re: Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

Postby Brad Jeffers » October 23rd, 2019, 3:19 pm

Brad Henderson wrote: One issue is that all magic presented via a screen is media magic.

I appreciate the term media magic, but would not apply it to all magic presented via a screen.

I would not for example, refer to the videos of Cardini or Channing Pollock as media magic.

I would instead use a term like filmed magic, to differentiate from media magic, which is magic designed to be seen on a screen, and which in most cases could not be presented otherwise.

If all magic presented via a screen is media magic, then every great stage magician, every great close-up magician, every great parlor magician, are all destined to end up as media magicians.

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Re: Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

Postby Brad Henderson » October 23rd, 2019, 4:25 pm

I think I addressed this.

The fact is, all magic presented on a screen is media magic. Now, the degree to which that is a useful classification can be argued. But philosophically, it’s an undeniable truth.

A magic show experienced in a theater is and can never be the same as a filmed magic show experienced on a screen. The moment the magic is recorded, it automatically becomes a ‘film’. That’s what it is. It is first and foremost a film. The subject of which is a magic show.

There is value in acknowledging the reality of the actual media.

BUT I do agree that there are differentiation’s that should be made. So I would suggest that ‘filmed magic’ would be a sub category of media magic. And I think it deserves that because the experience of the audience in a filmed magic show is never the same as tnose seeing the end product - for example the people in the live studio see the cameras and tech people and that impacts the experience. The home audience does not.

So it would be MEDIA magic as the experience is affected by virtue of its transmission through the media BUT it doesn’t really take advantage of the media beyond attempts at accurate representation of the idealized live performance.

So I like the idea of filmed magic being a sub set of media magic. Just as social media magic would be a specific sub set of media magic.

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Re: Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

Postby Brad Henderson » October 23rd, 2019, 4:30 pm

Maybe a good term is ‘representational’ magic as the goal in ‘filmed magic’ is to merely represent the actual live experience accurately, but on screen.

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Re: Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

Postby Bob Farmer » October 23rd, 2019, 5:38 pm

A somewhat related question: if Shin Lim won $1 million did he share the wealth with any of the inventors of the tricks he used that he did not invent? Wouldn't that be fair? After all, when a singer competes, the songwriter of the song is paid what is known as a synch fee, a negotiated, very lucrative sum. If half the show is the magician and the other half are the tricks, this is the same as the singer and the song.

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erdnasephile
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Re: Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

Postby erdnasephile » October 23rd, 2019, 6:11 pm

Bob Farmer wrote:A somewhat related question: if Shin Lim won $1 million did he share the wealth with any of the inventors of the tricks he used that he did not invent? Wouldn't that be fair? After all, when a singer competes, the songwriter of the song is paid what is known as a synch fee, a negotiated, very lucrative sum. If half the show is the magician and the other half are the tricks, this is the same as the singer and the song.


Bob:
Wouldn't Shin have had to negotiate for and pay for the television rights to routines created by others already? If so, wouldn't it depend on those contracts whether or not royalties are paid for monetary wins?

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Re: Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

Postby Brad Henderson » October 23rd, 2019, 6:59 pm

Tom Stone.
Tom Stone.
Tom Stone.

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Re: Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

Postby Bill Mullins » October 23rd, 2019, 8:27 pm

Bob Farmer wrote: If half the show is the magician and the other half are the tricks, this is the same as the singer and the song.


That's not the right ratio. It's closer to 90% magician, 10% tricks. Maybe even 99% to 1%.

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Bill Marquardt
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Re: Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

Postby Bill Marquardt » October 24th, 2019, 9:20 am

Bob - How much do I owe you for performing Mojo Boogie Boxes?

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Re: Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

Postby Bob Farmer » October 24th, 2019, 9:26 am

Bill and Bill:

1. It's 50/50 because if there ain't no trick there ain't no show. Or as the screenwriter did when Frank Capra took credit for everything in Capra's movies--he dropped 120 blank pages on Capra's desk and said, "Here, Frank, direct this!"

2. Not a penny.

And yes, if the deals were made before the show then that would be that and there would be no further monetary participation. It would be interesting to list all the tricks Shin Lim performed on the show and then ask the inventors if they had been paid. A million bucks is not to be ignored.

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Re: Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

Postby Jack Shalom » October 24th, 2019, 9:53 am

“So to make things fair—even though it is not easy to be fair in a capitalistic society—each time I earn money from performing magic, I would have to give a portion to Ascanio’s widow, Slydini’s heirs, and many others and say, ‘Here, please, this is your portion of my success.’ “—Juan Tamariz

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Re: Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

Postby skmayhew » October 24th, 2019, 3:46 pm

Jack Shalom wrote:“So to make things fair—even though it is not easy to be fair in a capitalistic society—each time I earn money from performing magic, I would have to give a portion to Ascanio’s widow, Slydini’s heirs, and many others and say, ‘Here, please, this is your portion of my success.’ “—Juan Tamariz


I can't tell from that quote if that's something he actually does, or if he's just a musing...

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Dustin Stinett
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Re: Shin Lim cancels in Vegas

Postby Dustin Stinett » October 24th, 2019, 5:38 pm

If the trick(s) performed were published/marketed and properly purchased by the magician, the creator received their contracted payment. If the creator(s) worked directly with the performer, then we, on the outside, do not know what the arrangement was between the artist and those who created the effects. And it's none of our business.


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