THR Story Re: Roy's Accident

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Q. Kumber
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Re: THR Story Re: Roy's Accident

Postby Q. Kumber » April 2nd, 2019, 6:20 pm

This would bear out Jeffrey's post about lions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZIQUb-d4GQ

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Re: THR Story Re: Roy's Accident

Postby Smurf » April 2nd, 2019, 9:56 pm

This type of animal is simply uncontrollable for any individual - and probably even six people each holding onto a chain.

There is a similar occurrence that is seen nearly every day in ordinary life. The next time you see someone walking a dog, ask yourself, "Can this person physically control this animal if it is bound and determined to do something out of the ordinary?" I often conclude that many owners would not be able to control their pets. I see a lot of pit bulls, probably rescued animals, that most people could not handle under extreme conditions. Granted domesticated animals are not as unpredictable as their "wild" counterparts, but it is not uncommon to find heartbreaking stories of the pet becoming the dominant party.

My elderly mother broke her elbow when walking the family dog one day on its leash and it bolted after something. That was after years of trouble-free walks.

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Re: THR Story Re: Roy's Accident

Postby Mark Collier » April 3rd, 2019, 3:03 am

I believe it was the summer of 1982 that I spent a month traveling with Circus Vargas. I have a lot of memories packed into that month.

I worked inside the tent on the security crew. I was basically an usher. Because I worked inside the tent, I knew the show verbatim. At the time, it was a three ring circus under the big top. There was a steel net hidden inside the curved boxes that surrounded the center ring so they could make a cage for the tiger act.

It was an especially hot summer day and the big cats were not having it. I wish I could remember the trainer's name. His rival, Gunther Gabel Williams was with Ringling Bros at the time. Anyway, the tiger trainer is in the cage by himself with a small crew of helpers outside of the cage with poles to poke the tigers with if needed.. The cats were misbehaving.. They would go sit on the wrong stool. They would spar with each other. The trainer was having a hard time controlling them. At one point in the act, he has six tigers lay down next to each other in a line and all roll over at the same time. One of the cats went back to his stool while the other one was just kind of roaming in the ring. The trainer went over to the rebellious tiger and pointed to where he wanted it to go. The cat took one lightening swipe and just laid open his arm from the elbow to the wrist. Blood was just pouring off of his hand. He went over and stuck his arm through the steel netting and his crew put on some surgical tubing as a restricting band.

He cut the show short and went straight to the finale, which was every cat (I'm guessing 9) jumping through the ring of fire. He carried the stand that held the ring (with a propane tank attached to the bottom) and placed it into position but you could tell he was dizzy. He dropped to one knee and lowered his head. Then he stood up and began calling the cats by name. Each cat was on their stool. When called, they would jump down from their perch and run up the steps, leap through the ring of fire and then exit the ring. The exit consisted of cages lined up to make a tunnel. The crew would slide in and remove barriers in order to route the cats back to their cages. It had to happen very quickly with precision timing.

Anyway, the tiger trainer started to lose it when he moved the stand with the propane tank, recomposed and started calling the cats by name to end the show early. After about three tigers jumped through the fire, the tiger trainer passes out completely. Out cold. The crew outside of the cage kept calling the cats names in the same order that they always went. The tigers seemed like they couldn't wait to get out of the ring and go back to their cages.

After the last cat was out, the other trainers entered the ring and administered smelling salts to wake up the trainer. He was able to walk out of the ring with the assistance of of a crew member on each side. This was a matinee show. He was back and performed the evening show with his arm heavily bandaged.

During the time I traveled with Circus Vargas, I felt really bad for the tigers. They lived two to a cage and there was just enough room for them to walk in circle...which they did...constantly. The meat the tigers were fed was black and did not look fresh.

I am in the camp that believes these animals cannot be truly domesticated. In the wild, their hunting range is huge.They travel dozens of miles every day. They are apex predators...amazing athletes. They are not well suited for captivity.

Who knows what went wrong with Mantecore but I betcha it has something to do with the fact that he was a tiger in captivity.

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Re: THR Story Re: Roy's Accident

Postby Brad Jeffers » April 3rd, 2019, 4:00 am

Mark Collier wrote: I wish I could remember the trainer's name.

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Re: THR Story Re: Roy's Accident

Postby I.M. Magician » April 3rd, 2019, 12:20 pm

Thank you for sharing that with us Mark. I completely agree with everything you said and feel very bad for any animals forced to perform for the entertainment of humans and at the cost of their comfort and freedom to live as they are meant to live.

With all of the new laws and discussions to make this world a more decent place, there are still many things that go unaddressed.

Zoos are good examples of what we do unfairly to animals. We confine them so people can go and stare at them. Many of them do not look happy and the last time I visited a zoo, I left feeling bad for the animals. I felt guilty being there and seeing the looks on their faces. Lots of sadness...

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Re: THR Story Re: Roy's Accident

Postby Anthony Vinson » April 3rd, 2019, 12:24 pm

Sirius/XM or Sirius/XM app subscribers: Though he is doubtless appearing elsewhere as well, Chris Lawrence, the bean-spilling tiger trainer, is a guest on the Michael Smerconish radio program tomorrow (4 April) in the 11:00 am hour EDT on the POTUS channel.

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Brad Henderson
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Re: THR Story Re: Roy's Accident

Postby Brad Henderson » April 3rd, 2019, 12:37 pm

I.M. Magician wrote:Thank you for sharing that with us Mark. I completely agree with everything you said and feel very bad for any animals forced to perform for the entertainment of humans and at the cost of their comfort and freedom to live as they are meant to live.

With all of the new laws and discussions to make this world a more decent place, there are still many things that go unaddressed.

Zoos are good examples of what we do unfairly to animals. We confine them so people can go and stare at them. Many of them do not look happy and the last time I visited a zoo, I left feeling bad for the animals. I felt guilty being there and seeing the looks on their faces. Lots of sadness...


If not for zoos many species may have already been lost to us. If not for zoos and the interest they create in the animals, many of the conservation programs that exist would never be funded. If not for zoos, our knowledge of these animals and what they need to survive in the wild would never be understood.

There are issues with zoos that are worthy of consideration. But to look only at one side of the issues is unfair.

As one example: https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... d-animals/

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Re: THR Story Re: Roy's Accident

Postby Mark Collier » April 3rd, 2019, 12:51 pm

I wrote this before seeing Brad's reply:

I wasn't trying to make a definitive statement about animals in captivity. Siegfried and Roy apparently did a lot to save white tigers from extinction. Zoos also do a lot of animal husbandry, raise awareness etc. It's not black and white and good arguments can be made for both sides of the issue.

My main point was that I don't think tigers can really be domesticated. It's in their DNA to travel large distances, stalk and kill prey etc. They are not well suited for captivity and I think it is an unacceptable risk to bring them onstage w/o proper restraints and/or physical barriers between them and the audience.

As bad as it was for Roy, it could have been much worse if Mantecore had charged into the audience.

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Re: THR Story Re: Roy's Accident

Postby Brad Henderson » April 3rd, 2019, 1:30 pm

Clearly there are also institutions who are not interested in any way in the animals welfare. In an ideal world animals would have the ability to live safely in their native habitats.

We are no longer in an ideal world.

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Re: THR Story Re: Roy's Accident

Postby Diego » April 3rd, 2019, 3:05 pm

I have also known circus and other acts that used animals, where their fellow performers were treated like the family
they were. For them, the old adage of: If you have a dollar left, and you can either use it to buy food for your animals, or your yourself,
the animals get fed always, is very true. The caring treatment they gave their animals was obvious.

All the info about what happened with Roy, should be considered that with his history/experience of working with wild animals, one incident, out of 40+ years, is a very good record. Many do not realize those animals are so powerful, a playful paw/slap can take your head off. I think there was a time when after a lion appeared in a cage, Siegfried opened the door to interact with the lion and it pawed/slapped his face, causing injury/bleeding onstage.

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Re: THR Story Re: Roy's Accident

Postby Jonathan Townsend » April 3rd, 2019, 3:20 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:...In an ideal world animals would have the ability to live safely in their native habitats.
Cognitive dissonance ... combining the notions of living safely and native habitat as regards animals.

Odd thing about PTSD and trauma in general - the inner damage is not entirely the blow or event but also the inability to reconnect with the rest of ones world (going back to work on that S&R show for example) that can cast people adrift.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

Brad Henderson
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Re: THR Story Re: Roy's Accident

Postby Brad Henderson » April 3rd, 2019, 4:17 pm

Safety is relative I suppose.

How about instead we use the term, unmolested by foreign influence.

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Re: THR Story Re: Roy's Accident

Postby Smurf » April 3rd, 2019, 4:26 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Brad Henderson wrote:...In an ideal world animals would have the ability to live safely in their native habitats.
Cognitive dissonance ... combining the notions of living safely and native habitat as regards animals.


Imagining oneself as the prey of a predator in a natural habitat may get you to rethink safety outside of zoos. You not only may have large apex predators around, but also smaller vicious or venomous predators. Cookie cutter sharks are serious little beasts. And then there is the numerical superiority of the insect world. Mosquito asphyxiation of large mammals has been found. The wide "animal" world won't be going vegan anytime soon and the safety and survival of others in local ecosystems doesn't hold animals back.

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Re: THR Story Re: Roy's Accident

Postby Richard Kaufman » April 3rd, 2019, 7:23 pm

White tigers and lions are not meant to be saved from extinction. They are a genetic mutation that should be left on its own to die out. People in the world of animal conservation were always unhappy about what Siegfried and Roy were doing with the white cats, which disturbed the natural order.
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Re: THR Story Re: Roy's Accident

Postby Brad Henderson » April 3rd, 2019, 7:45 pm

My comment was in defense of Zoos.

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Re: THR Story Re: Roy's Accident

Postby Joe Lyons » April 3rd, 2019, 9:58 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:White tigers and lions are not meant to be saved from extinction. They are a genetic mutation that should be left on its own to die out. People in the world of animal conservation were always unhappy about what Siegfried and Roy were doing with the white cats, which disturbed the natural order.

That's debatable.

Isn't a lot of evolution attributable to gene mutation?

Viva the evolution!

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Re: THR Story Re: Roy's Accident

Postby Jonathan Townsend » April 3rd, 2019, 10:25 pm

gene mutation which improves odds of survival where they live.

So for a specialized breed of captive lions and tigers maybe white fur and stunted skill/territorial (adult) behaviors ...
Another ten generations of very selective breeding of the most domesticated of the litters and maybe they'd be big semi-domesticated cats similar to the foxes which were bred for domestication. Here's some about the foxes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dwjS_eI-lQ
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: THR Story Re: Roy's Accident

Postby Joe Lyons » April 4th, 2019, 8:14 am

Jonathan Townsend wrote:gene mutation which improves odds of survival where they live.

So for a specialized breed of captive lions and tigers maybe white fur and stunted skill/territorial (adult) behaviors ...
Another ten generations of very selective breeding of the most domesticated of the litters and maybe they'd be big semi-domesticated cats similar to the foxes which were bred for domestication. Here's some about the foxes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dwjS_eI-lQ

Jonathan, all of your posts are perfectly clear to me with the exception of these. ;)

If you are saying big white cats aren't the next stage in feline evolution I agree.

I just don't believe in the policy of letting something die because it's different. My family would have abandoned me long ago...….

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Re: THR Story Re: Roy's Accident

Postby Jonathan Townsend » April 4th, 2019, 10:31 am

What's this about letting things die? I'm just saying that if you really want to breed tame white lions and tigers it's going to take several generations and much selective breeding - as with the foxes.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: THR Story Re: Roy's Accident

Postby Joe Lyons » April 4th, 2019, 11:37 am

Jonathan Townsend wrote:What's this about letting things die?


Richard Kaufman wrote:White tigers and lions are not meant to be saved from extinction. They are a genetic mutation that should be left on its own to die out.


Jonathan Townsend wrote: I'm just saying that if you really want to breed tame white lions and tigers it's going to take several generations and much selective breeding - as with the foxes.


Now I understand. Thanks.

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Re: THR Story Re: Roy's Accident

Postby Anthony Vinson » April 4th, 2019, 4:13 pm

Anthony Vinson wrote:Sirius/XM or Sirius/XM app subscribers: Though he is doubtless appearing elsewhere as well, Chris Lawrence, the bean-spilling tiger trainer, is a guest on the Michael Smerconish radio program tomorrow (4 April) in the 11:00 am hour EDT on the POTUS channel.


The interview was interesting, if only for the opportunity to hear the story in person. The incident appears to have really destroyed this guy's life for a while. Of course, he didn't suffer to nearly the extent as Roy, but it still... it's all relative, right? Worth a listen if you have the app; it'll be up for at least a few days on demand.

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Re: THR Story Re: Roy's Accident

Postby Ray J » April 21st, 2019, 2:31 pm


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Re: THR Story Re: Roy's Accident

Postby Bill Mullins » May 1st, 2019, 1:16 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:
Brad Henderson wrote:I never saw the point of the whole magic with big cats thing until I saw the S and R show. When they walked that animal in front of me, you FELT something - a feeling unlike any other.


From Red Dragon, by Thomas Harris. The psychopath Dolarhyde has taken his blind girlfriend, Reba, to see an anesthetized tiger.

She gripped the edge of the table and reached out tentatively until her fingers touched tips of fur, warm from the lights, a cooler layer and then a deep steady warmth from below. She flattened her hand on the thick coat and moved it gently, feeling the fur slide across her palm, with and against the lay, felt the hide slide over the wide ribs as they rose and fell.

She gripped the pelt and fur sprang between her fingers. In the very presence of the tiger her face grew pink and she lapsed into blindisms, inappropriate facial movements she had schooled herself against. . . .

Warfield lifted a great paw and put it in her hand. She felt the roughness of the pads and smelled faintly the cage floor. He pressed a toe to make the claw slide out. The heavy, supple muscles of the shoulders filled her hands.

She felt the tiger’s ears, the width of its head and, carefully, the veterinarian guiding her, touched the roughness of its tongue. Hot breath stirred the hair on her forearms.

Last, Dr. Warfield put the stethoscope in her ears. Her hands on the rhythmic chest, her face upturned, she was filled with the tiger heart’s bright thunder.


Michael Mann's version of the encounter.

Richard Kaufman wrote:Bill, that's a creepy sexual thing with the tiger. Ick.
Ya think?

I'm not sure if Manhunter is a better film than Silence of the Lambs -- they are both very good -- but Brian Cox is much better Lecktor than Anthony Hopkins.

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Re: THR Story Re: Roy's Accident

Postby Bill Mullins » May 13th, 2019, 2:13 am

There's no adequate introduction to this short piece on Montecore and Roy, so I will simply link to it.

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Re: THR Story Re: Roy's Accident

Postby erdnasephile » May 13th, 2019, 11:51 am

Was that written by "the" Steve Martin?

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Re: THR Story Re: Roy's Accident

Postby Bill Mullins » May 13th, 2019, 2:32 pm

i'd expect so, but can't tell for sure.

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Re: THR Story Re: Roy's Accident

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 13th, 2019, 3:56 pm

How odd.
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Re: THR Story Re: Roy's Accident

Postby Bill Duncan » May 15th, 2019, 12:28 am

Bill Mullins wrote:I'm not sure if Manhunter is a better film than Silence of the Lambs -- they are both very good -- but Brian Cox is much better Lecktor than Anthony Hopkins.


Really? Because this is the dictionary example of dull as dishwater.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djAhwNzf8Qs

Same scene in the trailer for Red Dragon, which is the book Mann's film is based on as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YGZI01fico

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Re: THR Story Re: Roy's Accident

Postby AJM » May 15th, 2019, 2:04 am

Manhunter is ruined as a result of Michael Mann’s soundtrack.

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