monte toss exposed

Discussions of new films, books, television shows, and media indirectly related to magic and magicians. For example, there may be a book on mnemonics or theatrical technique we should know or at least know about.
Daniel Z
Posts: 143
Joined: June 17th, 2008, 8:32 pm

monte toss exposed

Postby Daniel Z » January 27th, 2019, 1:56 pm

I just discovered that season Two episode 5 of Netflix' series Marvel's The Punisher begins with an (irritating) demo of, and discourse on, three card monte and ends revealing the (hype) toss adding insult to injury. Please restrain your criticisms of my choice in viewing matter.

Leonard Hevia
Posts: 1831
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Dai Vernon, Frank Garcia, Slydini, Houdini,
Location: Gaithersburg, Md.

Re: monte toss exposed

Postby Leonard Hevia » January 27th, 2019, 2:42 pm

The resourceful professional changes the method. Those who perform the classic version of 3 Card Monte might want to switch to a packet method primarily off the table--for a while. Packet methods are bountiful if you look around.

MagicbyAlfred
Posts: 1032
Joined: June 7th, 2015, 12:48 pm
Favorite Magician: Bill Malone
Location: Myrtle Beach, SC

Re: monte toss exposed

Postby MagicbyAlfred » January 27th, 2019, 3:38 pm

Leonard Hevia wrote:The resourceful professional changes the method. Those who perform the classic version of 3 Card Monte might want to switch to a packet method primarily off the table--for a while. Packet methods are bountiful if you look around.


Absolutely! Color Monte gets'em every time, and for some reason, it is intrinsically humorous, as people typically laugh throughout the routine, even before the hilarious finish. Moreover, it is easily adaptable to doing standing up with no table, and you are clean at the end, as the cards are, of course, examinable after the routine. And, if a spec happens to have been tipped on the work of the classic 3-Card Monte through that Netflix show, or any other *#!%^*@*!!! source, the Color Monte will be that much more impressive and perplexing...

Steve Hook
Posts: 805
Joined: October 21st, 2008, 11:50 am
Location: Raleigh, North Carolina, USA

Re: monte toss exposed

Postby Steve Hook » January 27th, 2019, 11:56 pm

My first thought after reading Leonard's comment was of the index versions such as that popularized by Michael Skinner, rather than "Color Monte".

User avatar
erdnasephile
Posts: 3947
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm

Re: monte toss exposed

Postby erdnasephile » January 28th, 2019, 12:55 am

I think these are all fair points, and the exposure is somewhat annoying. (Did the Punisher kill the Monte gang?)

However, one point to keep in mind is that if the hype is done expertly, it can be very hard to discern for even experienced magicians. Plus, laypersons often have poor memories for the details of exposures.

Therefore, I suspect that if you perform a routine that combines the hype with some magician's techniques at strategic places (Darwin's routine comes to mind), I'll bet you'd still fool the vast majority of laypersons very badly, even if they have some notion of the hype. (Besides, I'm fairly certain that most people that see the monte for entertainment suspect there's some card switching going on anyway, even if they don't know the exact details).

User avatar
Q. Kumber
Posts: 1596
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Manchester, England

Re: monte toss exposed

Postby Q. Kumber » January 28th, 2019, 4:32 am

People forget quickly, even magicians. When you go to a three day magic convention, by the time you leave you probably can't even remember who performed on the first day, never mind what they did.

Daniel Z
Posts: 143
Joined: June 17th, 2008, 8:32 pm

Re: monte toss exposed

Postby Daniel Z » January 28th, 2019, 6:56 am

I agree with those that feel this exposure like exposure in general has no lasting or serious impact. This has been proven again and again. I remember reading (in the Phoenix?) about the horrified response to the Camel cigarette exposures. Though it is irritating to many of us it didn't matter then, it doesn't matter now. Unless Mark Lewis is right that the Internet has changed all that. I'm not convinced.

As noted it can even be turned to one's advantage. Isn't the audiences knowledge of "the secret" after all at the heart of the (horribly named and ill conceived) sucker gag. Another version of this issue can be found currently on the thread about cups and balls where the "false" explanation in the Vernon routine is being discussed.

Juan Tamariz showed me a trick that absolutely floored me. I was suspended for a wonderful moment in a totally unfamiliar world. It was only sometime after his performance that I realized I knew the method - because in fact I did a version of the same effect. Perhaps, it is not quite the same but it certainly got me thinking about what happens in cases where the spectator "knows" what's going on.

MagicbyAlfred
Posts: 1032
Joined: June 7th, 2015, 12:48 pm
Favorite Magician: Bill Malone
Location: Myrtle Beach, SC

Re: monte toss exposed

Postby MagicbyAlfred » January 28th, 2019, 8:06 am

Steve Hook wrote:My first thought after reading Leonard's comment was of the index versions such as that popularized by Michael Skinner, rather than "Color Monte".


Yes, and undoubtedly the index versions are powerful because of the apparent fairness beyond reproach aspect. But I think it's strength may also be its weakness. When the cards are laid down so slowly with no realistic opportunity for any manipulation, a spectator with anything approaching even average intelligence is going to suspect (and rightfully so) that these are "trick cards." This, as opposed to the classic monte, where even if they know the "secret," there is bound to be admiration for the skill of the magician, especially if the routine is presented as a demonstration of what 3-card monte in fact is, a swindle.

Maybe it's because I have worked so much in bars where people are emboldened by the consumption of alcohol, but I don't like to end a routine "dirty" and you can't possibly be any less clean than after a Skinner Monte type routine. If someone says, "Let me see those cards," you are in a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation. You don't have that problem with Color Monte. There are so many strong card tricks that end clean, that it's not worth it to me to risk (what little is left of) my reputation on being busted or refusing to let them examine, which is just as bad. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that most magicians who do this routine take the cards out of a wallet, and then put them back in the wallet at the end.

If I was going to do the gaffed routine, I would want to present it in a fashion where the conviction on the part of the spectator was such that they would not suspect a gaff or ask to examine after completion of the routine. I probably would have the 3 gaffed cards in the deck, and start by doing a quick classic monte demonstration with the regular ace, two and three, starting with the three cards laying face up for all to see plainly and showing them cleanly all along. I would patter about someone I saw get hustled in the notorious 3-Card Monte scam, maybe do a first phase with no hype and the sucker wins 10 bucks, then a follow-up with a hype-phase where he loses $100 or more. Then, the cards would be placed back in the deck above or below where the gaffs are and act as if I am about to place them back in the box. But the sucker demands to play some more for a chance to recoup his loss. Then spread the deck and take out the gaffs and proceed, with the hustler explaining that he will "go very slowly and fairly this time." This is obviously just my opinion, and I am just thinking out loud here, but I think taking the cards out of the deck in lieu of a little wallet and the introductory phases of the classic monte with the ungaffed cards, and then the switch, would make it much stronger, and just as importantly, look like real magic as opposed to trick cards. Does it seem like a lot of trouble to go through? Perhaps, but I think it would be well worth it.

Brad Henderson
Posts: 3854
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: austin, tx

Re: monte toss exposed

Postby Brad Henderson » January 28th, 2019, 9:18 am

Is the fact that the cards are deceptively switched in the three card monte really a secret? it seems to me that that’s pretty much the entire premise and is most often presented as a key part of the routine. Sure, the exact method may not be known, but when done properly shouldn’t the move be invisible?

the three card monte isn’t a magic trick. It’s a display of skill. So finding out that it’s indeed a demonstration of skill wouldn’t hurt, would it?

Now I will admit, doing the move properly is difficult. After years of practicing it on and off I still can’t make it look great. But as anyone who has seen a real monte tosser will confess, it CAN be done with complete deception.

Using gaffed cards allows those who cannot do the move present a monte routine OR a monte routine which seems to transcend what should be possible by just switching cards. This is good for a magician, but really is an entirely different beast theatrically than a three card monte demonstration.

If Anything exposures like this empower the thoughtful demonstrator to take even greater advantage of their audiences. We know what they think they know. So one needs merely to toss in (no pun intended) a little flushtration type display after the ‘hype’ and then fake some hypes after the convincer.

The monte isn’t a magic trick, it’s a guessing game where the mark knows the operator is going to be switching the cards secretly. A good operator can do this without the audience being aware of the move. I’m not sure what harm can come from
This particular exposure.

Daniel Z
Posts: 143
Joined: June 17th, 2008, 8:32 pm

Re: monte toss exposed

Postby Daniel Z » January 28th, 2019, 10:28 am

I think you are quite right Brad. In this particular case I really wasn't exposure that upset me, an issue that I think is overblown in any case. Rather I was irritated at the fact that the scene gained nothing from it. Had they done the same thing without exposing anything it would have remained an exhibition of skill (more or less) and served the same function in the story-telling. On top of all that it failed as an exhibiiton of skill. From my point of view, the speed and repeated mixing of the cards made it feel that it would be unnecessary to use any other procedure to get the money, so no one would have bet since you didn't feel that you "knew" the position of the money card.

Brad Henderson
Posts: 3854
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: austin, tx

Re: monte toss exposed

Postby Brad Henderson » January 28th, 2019, 10:45 am

It’s like boobs. If you have a weak story, some may think adding some boobs will help save it. the exposure in this case is prurient, pornographic. it adds nothing beyond the thrill produced by the exploitation of the taboo.

The Burnaby Kid
Posts: 37
Joined: February 6th, 2018, 3:29 am

Re: monte toss exposed

Postby The Burnaby Kid » January 28th, 2019, 10:55 am

It's not that big a deal. If you need a way to deal with people who have heard about the hype, look no further than Dai Vernon's routine. He has the solution to it.

While this exposure is a nuisance for those of us who do the trick, monte is a scam and exposing the hype basically counts as gambling protection. What's more, the way magicians do monte puts so much heat on the idea of a hype, that we need to worry about our routining more than an exposure video.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free beginner's resource for card magic.

User avatar
erdnasephile
Posts: 3947
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm

Re: monte toss exposed

Postby erdnasephile » January 28th, 2019, 11:24 am

Brad Henderson wrote:.

Using gaffed cards allows those who cannot do the move present a monte routine OR a monte routine which seems to transcend what should be possible by just switching cards. This is good for a magician, but really is an entirely different beast theatrically than a three card monte demonstration.


Agreed. There is something palpably different with the Deland-based routines or any other gaffed method that doesn't use the hype. I think that for some of them (Moser's Monte comes to mind), the routine points to the method. (I was going to use the term "Too Perfect", but I didn't want to start a fight. ;) )

I have found one exception the above generalization, and that is Andrew Wimhurst's very sneaky monte endiing ("Yellow Kid's Monte") where he uses a gaff to accomplish something that is astounding, but within the range of possibility (of superhuman skill). Although you don't end squeaky clean, the spectators have been handling the cards throughout, so it's a non-issue.

PS: Alfred: Michael Ammar has an ungaffed ending to the Skinner routine using a Lewis/Krenzel idea--it's on one of his DVD's (the Lewis/Krenzel idea is in Apocalypse). It's easy and it plays a lot stronger than one might think in person if handled correctly.

MagicbyAlfred
Posts: 1032
Joined: June 7th, 2015, 12:48 pm
Favorite Magician: Bill Malone
Location: Myrtle Beach, SC

Re: monte toss exposed

Postby MagicbyAlfred » January 28th, 2019, 11:49 am

Agree with Brad and Erdnasephile's points. I, too was going use "too perfect," but shied away for the same reason of not wanting to stir up an old (and probably irreconcilable) controversy. So if anyone wants to argue the point, I concede in advance.

For me, there is just something about the lure of tossing those 3 cards around and the authenticity of it. Spectators have always reacted very well to it. I try to avoid any challenge to them to pick out the money card, and my presentation is a story of how I was the sucker that got hustled. This avoids or greatly mitigates any challenge aspect. And although I have never had a spectator say, "I know how you did that," I have had those who could not resist participating, and the "clever" person who intentionally and smugly points to a card that should not be the money card. I then do a 2-card hype, reluctantly showing that the card they picked was not the money card, even though it was - and never feel even the slightest pang of guilt.

Thanks for the reference re Ammar's ending on the gaffed monte. I am curious to see it.,

MagicbyAlfred
Posts: 1032
Joined: June 7th, 2015, 12:48 pm
Favorite Magician: Bill Malone
Location: Myrtle Beach, SC

Re: monte toss exposed

Postby MagicbyAlfred » January 28th, 2019, 12:05 pm

I apologize for the back-to-back post, but PS I seem now to recall what Ammar's ploy was. Was it a Himber wallet where after he puts the gaffs away in the wallet he brings them back out to be examined? Or, something along those lines. I think I was put off by that (if indeed that was even what Michael did.) I like the Himber wallet idea a lot, but not just putting the cards away and then taking them out to be examined. Perhaps putting the gaffed cards away in the Himber wallet and then as an afterthought, pulling out the (non-gaffed cards) to do a quick demo of the classic way the monte was/is done, with the tossing. Thus, you've implicitly shown the cards are ordinary, but in a much more subtle way, and with justification.

User avatar
erdnasephile
Posts: 3947
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm

Re: monte toss exposed

Postby erdnasephile » January 28th, 2019, 12:35 pm

Alfred: You got it. Ammar uses his "Showtime wallet", a Z-fold Himber, to accomplish the switch. (I prefer Michael Close's wallet, which is a lot more deceptive and not prone to mix-ups)

User avatar
erdnasephile
Posts: 3947
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm

Re: monte toss exposed

Postby erdnasephile » January 28th, 2019, 2:19 pm

For those that are into one of the in the hands monte routines, I wanted to mention this. In "Mo Monte" Max Maven has published two lines that may be of use to you. One is a perfect justification to do an in the hands routine. The second is a presentational justification for getting gaffed cards out of play at the end.

User avatar
Q. Kumber
Posts: 1596
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Manchester, England

Re: monte toss exposed

Postby Q. Kumber » January 28th, 2019, 2:31 pm

Daniel Z wrote:I think you are quite right Brad. In this particular case I really wasn't exposure that upset me, an issue that I think is overblown in any case. Rather I was irritated at the fact that the scene gained nothing from it. Had they done the same thing without exposing anything it would have remained an exhibition of skill (more or less) and served the same function in the story-telling. On top of all that it failed as an exhibiiton of skill. From my point of view, the speed and repeated mixing of the cards made it feel that it would be unnecessary to use any other procedure to get the money, so no one would have bet since you didn't feel that you "knew" the position of the money card.


This is an excellent point not understood by the majority of magicians. Editing moves/lines/bits that do not add to the overall effect.

Brad Henderson
Posts: 3854
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: austin, tx

Re: monte toss exposed

Postby Brad Henderson » January 28th, 2019, 3:11 pm

The Burnaby Kid wrote:
While this exposure is a nuisance for those of us who do the trick, monte is a scam and exposing the hype basically counts as gambling protection..


Does it? Or does it make for half smart players who think they know it all and become ripe pickings because they are too confident in their own knowledge?

We used to have a guy who taught a pseudo science class in Austin at UT. he empowered a lot of impressionable young people to believe they couldn’t be fooled because they knew the tricks he would share during class.

I loved performing for these people. I knew what he had taught them and it made it super easy to push topple their skeptical edifice.

it made them annoying audiences and did nothing to protect them from people who knew more about the subject than someone who took a general studies class one semester.

likewise, teaching the hype does nothing to protect the would be mark. the hype isn’t why he or she is going to lose. the group dynamic is.

if you truly wanted to protect the sheep, this is what you would focus on. you wouldn’t misdirect them by focusing on moves that don’t really matter in the big scheme of things.

There is no social value from exposing the hype.

It’s purely a prurient Act. Gratuitous.

The Burnaby Kid
Posts: 37
Joined: February 6th, 2018, 3:29 am

Re: monte toss exposed

Postby The Burnaby Kid » January 28th, 2019, 4:32 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:likewise, teaching the hype does nothing to protect the would be mark.


It lets him know why he needs to stay away from the game.

you wouldn’t misdirect them by focusing on moves that don’t really matter in the big scheme of things.

There is no social value from exposing the hype.

It’s purely a prurient Act. Gratuitous.


So why did Vernon expose it, then?
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free beginner's resource for card magic.

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 7963
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: monte toss exposed

Postby Jonathan Townsend » January 28th, 2019, 4:49 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:There is no social value from exposing the hype.

It’s purely a prurient Act. Gratuitous.

Not sure about that. Imagining one has as clue how a con is foisted is part of the bait into a con.
But it will not make the innocent vicious, or transform the pastime player into a professional; or make the fool wise, or curtail the annual crop of suckers...
The simplest sleight, if well rigged up with either plausible or nonsensical clap-trap, may be made to provide a most astonishing and elaborate card trick; whereas, if the sleight be exhibited alone, the effect is not at all commensurate with the time and labor spent in acquiring the skill. Conceal, as far as possible, the possession of digital ability, and leave the company still guessing how it is done.
-that book Vernon recommended.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

Roger M.
Posts: 1401
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm

Re: monte toss exposed

Postby Roger M. » January 28th, 2019, 5:03 pm

The hype has absolutely nothing to do with working the short con, so who cares if the hype is exposed?

Brad Henderson
Posts: 3854
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: austin, tx

Re: monte toss exposed

Postby Brad Henderson » January 28th, 2019, 7:40 pm

The Burnaby Kid wrote:
Brad Henderson wrote:likewise, teaching the hype does nothing to protect the would be mark.


It lets him know why he needs to stay away from the game.

you wouldn’t misdirect them by focusing on moves that don’t really matter in the big scheme of things.

There is no social value from exposing the hype.

It’s purely a prurient Act. Gratuitous.


So why did Vernon expose it, then?


1) You really believe the people who play the game don’t know that the operator is switching cards in a way that should be hard for them to detect?

how is exposing the specific means helpful in any way? Other than to give the sucker a false sense of inflated security.

2) not for any social reason. his reason likely had to do with increasing the audiences appreciation of his demonstration. I have seen no evidence to suggest he did it in order to protect his audience from grifters.

The Burnaby Kid
Posts: 37
Joined: February 6th, 2018, 3:29 am

Re: monte toss exposed

Postby The Burnaby Kid » January 28th, 2019, 8:44 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:1) You really believe the people who play the game don’t know that the operator is switching cards in a way that should be hard for them to detect?


The point is that the people who play the game in real life believe that it's in the mix, not in the throw. They also only get burned once, so they go to sleep on the throw.

2) not for any social reason. his reason likely had to do with increasing the audiences appreciation of his demonstration.


So you're saying that exposing the hype is a prurient, gratuitous act except in the context when Vernon does it. Alright.

Which category would Ricky Jay fall into with his gambling exposes? Some useful stuff to magicians, far more useful than the hype, was given away pretty much willy-nilly.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free beginner's resource for card magic.

Brad Henderson
Posts: 3854
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: austin, tx

Re: monte toss exposed

Postby Brad Henderson » January 28th, 2019, 9:25 pm

no it wasn’t

YOU claimed that the exposure of the hype served some function as gambling protection.

It doesn’t.

It serves zero purpose at all because 1) everyone knows the cards are going to be mixed in a manner one is not supposed to detect the order. Exposing the actual Methodology doesn’t add any information of value. 2) those who CAN do the move can do it in a manner in which you wouldn’t believe they were switching cards Any way, so exposing the specific method only makes someone more vulnerable and 3) the reason you will never win is because of the mob dynamics so knowledge of the switch is irrelevant, neither As a vehicle for gambling protection nor as an additional story element. It is gratuitous.

That doesn’t mean that others CAN’T expose this information in a manner that serves a larger purpose, only that in this case it doesn’t.

For example, one could expose the hype and then replicate the effect by means of a different method and create an experience of impossibility that wouldn’t be achieved without the audiences knowledge of specific method.

Likewise, one could expose the move in order to heighten the appreciation of skill of that is the goal of the performer.

but that didn’t happen in the case under discussion.

In this case it serves no purpose. It doesn’t protect people from monte mobs (in fact it might make them more vulnerable) and it didn’t serve the needs of the story. they could have communicated the exact relevant information without a detailed explanation.

It was gratuitous.

Leonard Hevia
Posts: 1831
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Dai Vernon, Frank Garcia, Slydini, Houdini,
Location: Gaithersburg, Md.

Re: monte toss exposed

Postby Leonard Hevia » January 28th, 2019, 9:35 pm

The classic monte is definitely a demonstration of skill, as folks here pointed out. The beauty of it though is that it borderlines on magic. The boundaries can blur in the sequence where you show all three cards as queens, and when the corner bend mysteriously vanishes from the queen and winds up on the number card. These are magical effects.

The Burnaby Kid
Posts: 37
Joined: February 6th, 2018, 3:29 am

Re: monte toss exposed

Postby The Burnaby Kid » January 28th, 2019, 9:55 pm

Brad,

Let's try this again. I was trying to say that we can't do anything about videos like these because ultimately they expose a scam, not a magic trick. They show people that the mix has nothing to do with how they missed the card. Now, at this point, an intelligent person would look at a good throw and realize that it could have been fair or false, at which point they'd just be guessing as to where the card is. Normally, when they're not wise to the hype, when they look at a mix, they know in their hearts where the card is. It gets people a little smarter. Does it compel them to try the game because they think they know how to beat it? I don't know. Sometimes the only way to teach somebody not to tough a hot stove is to let them touch a hot stove.

Regardless of how well or badly this guy does in his video, it falls in the area of cheating exposure that matches the same sort of thing that Ricky Jay and John Scarne did in their videos. I'll pose the question again, "Which category would Ricky Jay fall into with his gambling exposes? Some useful stuff to magicians, far more useful than the hype, was given away pretty much willy-nilly."

And taking this further, we have to see the difference between what we do as magicians and what monte throwers on the street do. We use the move multiple times. Some real life crews don't even bother doing it once. We don't need to worry about this guy and his video, we need to worry about how we're routining the effect as magicians, because people will often become wise to the hype regardless. This is where Vernon's routining is so important -- the toss has such an aesthetic presence (which a con artist would never allow) in that routine that ultimately it has to be disproven somehow, and he gave us one of the best ways.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free beginner's resource for card magic.

Brad Henderson
Posts: 3854
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: austin, tx

Re: monte toss exposed

Postby Brad Henderson » January 28th, 2019, 10:54 pm

Ricky Jay didn’t give away anything ‘willy nilly’

You are missing the point repeatedly.

No one is incensed this was exposed. you are creating an issue where there is none.

what is unfortunate is that this exposure accomplished nothing. it didn’t help the story, it doesn’t serve to act as ‘gambling protection’ (as you have claimed). It was merely gratuitous exposure for the thrill of exposures sake.

That’s pretty clear.

YOU seem to want to defend it and make apples and oranges comparisons while tilting at a straw man argument.

I have no problem with an artist telling anything to their audience - as long as it serves an artistic purpose. it does when Ricky jay did it. it does when Vernon did it.

It doesn’t do it here.

There is nothing wrong with making that observation. just like there is nothing wrong with calling your defense if gambling protection into question.

as knowledge of the hype in concept let alone detail won’t prevent you from losing at this game - in fact if you watch real games you will see that the personality types most often hooked by the game are the kind that knowledge of the move will only allow the operator to set more deeply - it’s exposure won’t serve the function you claimed it might.

No one is saying exposing the hype is a crime. Only that it’s unfortunate and pointless in the context in which we find it exposed here.

The Burnaby Kid
Posts: 37
Joined: February 6th, 2018, 3:29 am

Re: monte toss exposed

Postby The Burnaby Kid » January 28th, 2019, 11:10 pm

Alright, a quick apology. I confused this exposure with another recent exposure on the hype that got talked about elsewhere, where people were unhappy. That's my bad and I apologize. I was defending that one and not even thinking about the one in the Punisher, which I haven't even seen yet. My apologies to everybody in this thread for that.

I'll forego further comment until I've had a chance to see that one.

Sorry again.
JACK, the Jolly Almanac of Card Knavery, a free beginner's resource for card magic.


Return to “Alternative Media”