ERDNASE

Discuss general aspects of Genii.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » April 13th, 2018, 6:08 pm

This is indeed looking like two/three lawyers arguing about the fine details of a crime scene....I guess it's kind of inevitable.....better this than nothing at all, in my opinion...

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » April 13th, 2018, 6:34 pm

lybrary wrote:Not if you move inward as the text instructs. As Erdnase states it is a downward and inward movement. That means the hand is not only going down but also inward.

I fully agree that the hand has to come inward -- it has to, to get out from under the cards. He says, "give the hand a slight swing or jerk downwards and inwards." He doesn't say "give the hand and the cards a slight swing or jerk inwards."
That means the hand imparts the cards with an inward movement, besides gravity pulling them down. You know, Newton's laws of motion and such. When the hand releases the cards they will therefore not fall straight down, they will have a velocity component pointing inwards.

Erdnase is a precise enough writer that if he wanted to put the cards into horizontal motion and pull them backwards with the hand, he'd have said so. He didn't - he said "release" the cards, so they "fall". All consistent with dropping straight down, not consistent with imparting an inward motion.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » April 13th, 2018, 6:51 pm

As I wrote, even if you insist, the cards in the hand are above the pack and thus closer to the camera, making them appear larger. You argued that this is wrong. How so?
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jkeyes1000
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby jkeyes1000 » April 13th, 2018, 7:04 pm

Not that I suppose anyone cares about my interpretation of this passage. In fact, I don't care all that much. But here it is.

Erdnase basically says you ought to swing or jerk the deck with a downward and inward motion. To me, this means pulling the bottom half down and back, and sort of tossing the top portion forward onto the tabled cards.

I don't think the "jerk" is the inward motion. I rather believe it is a forward jog, followed by a pullback.

In any case--I feel that the illustration is showing us an angled view of the hold, prior to getting it in the horizontal position.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Zenner » April 13th, 2018, 7:32 pm

Richard Hatch wrote:Magic and gambling collector Tom Blue has posted a video championing a candidate for Erdnase:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ol6T_Ne35U&


I am sure that William Symes Andrews has been proposed before.

"Andrews, William Symes, was born on September 10, 1847, in Saltford Somersetshire, England. Son of Bailey Symes and Selina (Chesterton) Andrews."

That makes him 54 by December, 1901, 14 years older than Smith's estimate. And what makes Tom Blue believe that he was capable of showing Smith some card tricks and of writing a book about them? Oh yes, he was interested in Magic Squares :?
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » April 13th, 2018, 8:59 pm

Zenner wrote:
Richard Hatch wrote:Magic and gambling collector Tom Blue has posted a video championing a candidate for Erdnase:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ol6T_Ne35U&


I am sure that William Symes Andrews has been proposed before.

I believe that Todd Karr explored W. S. Andrews some years ago. I had also been told that Al Flosso believed W. S. Andrews was Erdnase. But I agree that based on Marshall Smith's eyewitness testimony concerning the author's age and lack of a foreign accent, we can probably rule him out. Also, to me, his writing does not sound much like Erdnase.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » April 13th, 2018, 9:16 pm

Richard Hatch wrote:But I agree that based on Marshall Smith's eyewitness testimony concerning the author's age...we can probably rule him out. Also, to me, his writing does not sound much like Erdnase.


Gallaway does not sound much like Erdnase to me either.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » April 13th, 2018, 9:28 pm

Richard Hatch wrote: I agree that based on Marshall Smith's eyewitness testimony concerning the author's age and lack of a foreign accent, we can probably rule him out.


He did say "back east" -- do you suppose he meant as far east as England?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Zenner » April 14th, 2018, 5:32 am

Bill Mullins wrote:
Richard Hatch wrote: I agree that based on Marshall Smith's eyewitness testimony concerning the author's age and lack of a foreign accent, we can probably rule him out.


He did say "back east" -- do you suppose he meant as far east as England?


He was from Somerset and there they have a distinct regional accent. Smith might not have even understood a Somerset accent.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby jkeyes1000 » April 14th, 2018, 9:16 am

I would guess that most of you serious fans of Erdnase have seen Gallaway's library bookplate, but I noticed that it had a quote from Milton at the top. He might not have used snippets like this in his writing, but it shows that he was just as capable as Sanders of referring to authors of classic literature.

His plate is the third one down on this blog:

http://blog.mysentimentallibrary.com/20 ... ction.html

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » April 14th, 2018, 10:13 am

A VERY interesting bit of speculation on Erdnase by the great David Saltman on his blog:

http://www.houdinifile.com/2018/04/houdini-erdnase.html

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » April 14th, 2018, 11:10 am

jkeyes1000 wrote:I would guess that most of you serious fans of Erdnase have seen Gallaway's library bookplate, but I noticed that it had a quote from Milton at the top. He might not have used snippets like this in his writing, but it shows that he was just as capable as Sanders of referring to authors of classic literature.

His plate is the third one down on this blog:

http://blog.mysentimentallibrary.com/20 ... ction.html
Gallaway did use snippets of classic literature in his writing. In 1906 he wrote a petition to establish lending libraries at two facilities of the Odd Fellows which starts:
WHEREAS, "In sickness, in sorrow, in the most doleful days of dejection, or in the most gloomy seasons of the calendar, the reading of a good book is the sweetest solace and the surest refuge … A book produces a delightful abstraction from the cares and sorrows of this world. By the magic illusion of a fascinating author we are transported from the couch of anguish, or the gripe of melancholy, to Milton's Paradise or the Elysium of Virgil": and

WHEREAS, This Grand Lodge should consider it an imperative duty to provide good literature for our brothers and sisters at the Old Folks’ Home, and also to instill and foster a love for good, healthy reading in the hearts of our boys and girls at the Orphans’ Home; and
This is quoted from Joseph Dennie's "The Lay Preacher". The full petition and other information surrounding it is in my ebook.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » April 14th, 2018, 6:47 pm

lybrary wrote:Gallaway did use snippets of classic literature in his writing. In 1906 he wrote a petition to establish lending libraries at two facilities of the Odd Fellows which starts:
WHEREAS, "In sickness, in sorrow, in the most doleful days of dejection, or in the most gloomy seasons of the calendar, the reading of a good book is the sweetest solace and the surest refuge … A book produces a delightful abstraction from the cares and sorrows of this world. By the magic illusion of a fascinating author we are transported from the couch of anguish, or the gripe of melancholy, to Milton's Paradise or the Elysium of Virgil": and

WHEREAS, This Grand Lodge should consider it an imperative duty to provide good literature for our brothers and sisters at the Old Folks’ Home, and also to instill and foster a love for good, healthy reading in the hearts of our boys and girls at the Orphans’ Home; and
This is quoted from Joseph Dennie's "The Lay Preacher". The full petition and other information surrounding it is in my ebook.


These classical references are to prove what? You're the one who had claimed Sanders (unlike Erdnase) was an outdoors "miner" and wasn't "bookish". As I said at the time, "bookish" connotes something different (stodgy, socially withdrawn, etc). And I think you probably meant that he wasn't well read and that he didn't have scholarly interests. In any case, your point was quickly disproven by Sanders' quotes in Latin, references to various authors, historical research, etc.

So now you're showcasing this clunky boilerplate quote (unlike Sanders witty and substantive ones) to show that Gallaway was familiar with the classics. But that's not something anyone raised about him, was it? He was known to have a fairly large library, right? I don't get your point. Or are you still insisting that Sanders didn't know Milton from Shakespeare?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » April 14th, 2018, 10:05 pm

Here's something of potential interest to everyone here... There's a new version of Erdnase out by Joe Crist with photos of his hands vs the old illustrations. It looks really great. In his foreword, he tells a story about Erdnase that he heard from his teacher Joe Artanis whose card teacher was apparently friends with Erdnase. I don't want to say more, but I'm very glad I got the book (even though it's expensive).

https://artificeruseandsubterfuge.com

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » April 14th, 2018, 11:40 pm

Bob Coyne wrote:
lybrary wrote:Gallaway did use snippets of classic literature in his writing. In 1906 he wrote a petition to establish lending libraries at two facilities of the Odd Fellows which starts:
WHEREAS, "In sickness, in sorrow, in the most doleful days of dejection, or in the most gloomy seasons of the calendar, the reading of a good book is the sweetest solace and the surest refuge … A book produces a delightful abstraction from the cares and sorrows of this world. By the magic illusion of a fascinating author we are transported from the couch of anguish, or the gripe of melancholy, to Milton's Paradise or the Elysium of Virgil": and

WHEREAS, This Grand Lodge should consider it an imperative duty to provide good literature for our brothers and sisters at the Old Folks’ Home, and also to instill and foster a love for good, healthy reading in the hearts of our boys and girls at the Orphans’ Home; and
This is quoted from Joseph Dennie's "The Lay Preacher". The full petition and other information surrounding it is in my ebook.


These classical references are to prove what? You're the one who had claimed Sanders (unlike Erdnase) was an outdoors "miner" and wasn't "bookish". As I said at the time, "bookish" connotes something different (stodgy, socially withdrawn, etc). And I think you probably meant that he wasn't well read and that he didn't have scholarly interests. In any case, your point was quickly disproven by Sanders' quotes in Latin, references to various authors, historical research, etc.

So now you're showcasing this clunky boilerplate quote (unlike Sanders witty and substantive ones) to show that Gallaway was familiar with the classics. But that's not something anyone raised about him, was it? He was known to have a fairly large library, right? I don't get your point. Or are you still insisting that Sanders didn't know Milton from Shakespeare?


Give Chris some credit, Bob. At least he now recognizes these words as a quote -- he used to think they were written by Gallaway, until he was informed otherwise.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » April 15th, 2018, 1:37 am

Roger M. wrote:Smith recalls nothing that would suggest Erdnase had a wife.

A quote from our old friend Roger M. who had listed what Smith remembered from that meeting. Gallaway had married in June of 1901 and would have been a 6 month newlywed by December of that year. It is most likely that the meeting in the hotel room took place in December 1901. Now American husbands did not traditionally begin to wear wedding bands till around WWII, so if he was married, Erdnase would not have been wearing a band on his left fourth finger.

We know from Smith that Erdnase made small talk such as his relationship to Dalrymple while showing him card tricks and so on. Yet Erdnase said nothing about being married (recently?) and what that was like. Two men alone in a hotel room, one possibly married six months prior, and no mention of that? When men get together informally, the subject of marriage is usually not far away. If Gallaway was in that hotel room, he felt obligated not to discuss his recent marriage. Or maybe it wasn't Gallaway in that hotel room...

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby jkeyes1000 » April 15th, 2018, 8:54 am

Leonard Hevia wrote:
Roger M. wrote:Smith recalls nothing that would suggest Erdnase had a wife.

A quote from our old friend Roger M. who had listed what Smith remembered from that meeting. Gallaway had married in June of 1901 and would have been a 6 month newlywed by December of that year. It is most likely that the meeting in the hotel room took place in December 1901. Now American husbands did not traditionally begin to wear wedding bands till around WWII, so if he was married, Erdnase would not have been wearing a band on his left fourth finger.

We know from Smith that Erdnase made small talk such as his relationship to Dalrymple while showing him card tricks and so on. Yet Erdnase said nothing about being married (recently?) and what that was like. Two men alone in a hotel room, one possibly married six months prior, and no mention of that? When men get together informally, the subject of marriage is usually not far away. If Gallaway was in that hotel room, he felt obligated not to discuss his recent marriage. Or maybe it wasn't Gallaway in that hotel room...


Or maybe he thought that Dalrymple was more relevant to the conversation.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jack Shalom » April 15th, 2018, 10:38 am

Bob Coyne wrote:Here's something of potential interest to everyone here... There's a new version of Erdnase out by Joe Crist with photos of his hands vs the old illustrations. It looks really great. In his foreword, he tells a story about Erdnase that he heard from his teacher Joe Artanis whose card teacher was apparently friends with Erdnase. I don't want to say more, but I'm very glad I got the book (even though it's expensive).

https://artificeruseandsubterfuge.com


Wow. That's Johnny Thompson expensive.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » April 15th, 2018, 11:42 am

jkeyes1000 wrote:Or maybe he thought that Dalrymple was more relevant to the conversation.


Really? Speaking of Dalrymple, what was the title of the political cartoon connected to Erdnase that Dalrymple illustrated? If you had followed Bill Mullin's suggestion to read up on the relevant material you might be able to answer this question. I would wager a crisp $100 dollar bill on the green baize that you have read nothing. Chiming in with uninformed opinions is nothing short of buffoonery.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » April 15th, 2018, 12:21 pm

Leonard Hevia wrote:Speaking of Dalrymple, what was the title of the political cartoon connected to Erdnase that Dalrymple illustrated?
It was this one
Image
Except it wasn't by Dalrymple, it was by Walter Gallaway :lol:
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby jkeyes1000 » April 15th, 2018, 12:59 pm

Leonard Hevia wrote:
jkeyes1000 wrote:Or maybe he thought that Dalrymple was more relevant to the conversation.


Really? Speaking of Dalrymple, what was the title of the political cartoon connected to Erdnase that Dalrymple illustrated? If you had followed Bill Mullin's suggestion to read up on the relevant material you might be able to answer this question. I would wager a crisp $100 dollar bill on the green baize that you have read nothing. Chiming in with uninformed opinions is nothing short of buffoonery.


I can't imagine how research would alter my point, Leonard. I was merely suggesting that the mention of Dalrymple might have been more pertinent than referring to his wife. If Erdnase were a no-nonsense sort of fellow, he might have spoken only of art-related matters.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » April 15th, 2018, 3:03 pm

jkeyes1000 wrote:.....If Erdnase were a no-nonsense sort of fellow, he might have spoken only of art-related matters.....


A small bit of research indicates that Erdnase spoke far more broadly than about just "art-related matters":
    Erdnase talked to Smith about, and demonstrated card tricks
    Erdnase talked to Smith about how cold it was outside
    Erdnase talked to Smith at length about how he took care of his hands in order to better handle playing cards
    Erdnase talked to Smith about being a card shark
    Erdnase talked to Smith about going straight
    Erdnase talked to Smith about how he (Erdnase) didn't care about how artistic the drawings were, as long as they got the point across.
    Erdnase talked about the fact that he was related to Dalrymple

So as you can see, Erdnase spoke with Smith about an array of subjects ... one of which (in any normal conversation) would no doubt been about his wife, if indeed he was married ... which he very likely (as per Smith's observations) wasn't.
The likelihood that Erdnase would have proffered information on his marital status would have been a wide open door as soon as Erdnase mentioned he was related to Dalrymple.

The list above is obviously only what Smith could recall for Gardner, but the likelihood is very high that Smith and Erdnase spoke about much more than just what's on this list.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby jkeyes1000 » April 15th, 2018, 3:32 pm

Roger M. wrote:
jkeyes1000 wrote:.....If Erdnase were a no-nonsense sort of fellow, he might have spoken only of art-related matters.....


A small bit of research indicates that Erdnase spoke far more broadly than about just "art-related matters":
    Erdnase talked to Smith about, and demonstrated card tricks
    Erdnase talked to Smith about how cold it was outside
    Erdnase talked to Smith at length about how he took care of his hands in order to better handle playing cards
    Erdnase talked to Smith about being a card shark
    Erdnase talked to Smith about going straight
    Erdnase talked to Smith about how he (Erdnase) didn't care about how artistic the drawings were, as long as they got the point across.
    Erdnase talked about the fact that he was related to Dalrymple

So as you can see, Erdnase spoke with Smith about an array of subjects ... one of which (in any normal conversation) would no doubt been about his wife, if indeed he was married ... which he very likely (as per Smith's observations) wasn't.
The likelihood that Erdnase would have proffered information on his marital status would have been a wide open door as soon as Erdnase mentioned he was related to Dalrymple.

The list above is obviously only what Smith could recall for Gardner, but the likelihood is very high that Smith and Erdnase spoke about much more than just what's on this list.


With the exception of the mention of the weather, these references are all related to the subject of the book.

Which only supports the notion that Erdnase's remarks were pertinent to the project. There is no discussion about home life--or personal habits that do not touch upon gambling. If he were as chatty as you suggest, then why would he have neglected to inform Smith of his career in the printing business (if he was Gallaway), or the fact that his father was a senator (if he was Sanders)?

You can speculate all you like about what a man you can't even identify would have talked about, but I think it more sensible to consider the distinct possibility that Erdnase was a business man, to whom "time was money". Thus, even he had been newly wed, he might have refrained from mentioning the wife.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » April 15th, 2018, 3:47 pm

jkeyes1000 wrote:If he were as chatty as you suggest, then why would he have neglected to inform Smith of his career in the printing business (if he was Gallaway), or the fact that his father was a senator (if he was Sanders)?


Well, Erdnase wasn't either of those folks, so the remainder of your post becomes somewhat moot.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » April 15th, 2018, 4:05 pm

jkeyes1000 wrote: I think it more sensible to consider the distinct possibility that Erdnase was a business man, to whom "time was money"......


The lack of understanding as to what's actually contained in the book remains a surprise to me.

Erdnase definitely wasn't a businessman, nor would I posit that he was a magician ... the facts betray Erdnase as a professional card cheat who devoted his entire adult life to developing (almost) completely original and outrageously complex card sleights designed to gain an advantage at a card table, sleights and thinking never before experienced by any living person, sleights and thinking never contemplated by previous card cheats as even being possible.

That S.W. Erdnase was definitely not a businessman is all there for the taking for readers who take the time to understand the true depth of the contents of the EATCT, who then read the entirety of this thread a few times, read the various Genii articles, read the various Magic articles, read the Magicana issue/book, read Hurts brilliant book, and read Tom Sawyers ever insightful book(s) ... and although fatally flawed, TMWWE remains an additional reference of great value.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » April 15th, 2018, 4:47 pm

Roger M. wrote:if indeed he was married ... which he very likely (as per Smith's observations) wasn't.
How would have Smith seen that he was married?
Roger M. wrote:That S.W. Erdnase was definitely not a businessman ...
Oh really? A man who self-publishes a book to make money is as far as I am concerned an entrepreneur. Don't know what your definition for a 'businessman' is, but it is as much businessman as it can get if you put up your own money to start a risky project with the goal to make a profit.

Roger is back, breaking his own vow that he was done here. What's with the old fashioned 'keeping ones word'?
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby jkeyes1000 » April 15th, 2018, 4:53 pm

Roger M. wrote:
jkeyes1000 wrote: I think it more sensible to consider the distinct possibility that Erdnase was a business man, to whom "time was money"......


The lack of understanding as to what's actually contained in the book remains a surprise to me.

Erdnase definitely wasn't a businessman, nor would I posit that he was a magician ... the facts betray Erdnase as a professional card cheat who devoted his entire adult life to developing (almost) completely original and outrageously complex card sleights designed to gain an advantage at a card table, sleights and thinking never before experienced by any living person, sleights and thinking never contemplated by previous card cheats as even being possible.

That S.W. Erdnase was definitely not a businessman is all there for the taking for readers who take the time to understand the true depth of the contents of the EATCT, who then read the entirety of this thread a few times, read the various Genii articles, read the various Magic articles, read the Magicana issue/book, read Hurts brilliant book, and read Tom Sawyers ever insightful book(s) ... and although fatally flawed, TMWWE remains an additional reference of great value.


A man who writes a book, hires an illustrator (and very probably a photographer), and plans to publish it himself, is a business man. If it is cold outside, he most likely wants to get this meeting over with and get back home. Likewise, if he was recently married, he would probably prefer to hurry up with this project and return to his wife, rather than chit-chat about her.

And, come to think of it, the reference to the weather might have been related to the meeting with Smith. As the cold would naturally stiffen the hands, which Erdnase would need to warm up before demonstrating the card moves.

Can you specify anything in their conversation that was not in some way relevant to the subject of the book, or the purpose of the meeting?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » April 15th, 2018, 5:03 pm

jkeyes1000 wrote:Which only supports the notion that Erdnase's remarks were pertinent to the project. There is no discussion about home life--or personal habits that do not touch upon gambling. If he were as chatty as you suggest, then why would he have neglected to inform Smith of his career in the printing business (if he was Gallaway), or the fact that his father was a senator (if he was Sanders)?

You can speculate all you like about what a man you can't even identify would have talked about, but I think it more sensible to consider the distinct possibility that Erdnase was a business man, to whom "time was money". Thus, even he had been newly wed, he might have refrained from mentioning the wife.


A notion based on what? No reading or study? Mr. Keyes--your notions are like the half gallon containers of cheap ice cream in grocery stores. They weigh almost nothing because they're air whipped. The consumer is paying for a lot of air.

Smith told Gardner that Erdnase "was honest with me...He put more cards on the table than was necessary. He withheld nothing." This can be interpreted to mean that Erdnase was frank and open with him to a certain extent. It's strange that he wouldn't mention a fairly recent marriage, which is a life changing event for most people.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » April 15th, 2018, 5:04 pm

Some time away Chris, always a refreshing break, some additional perspectve.
All good.
The thread has introduced some new candidates to study as well, some very interesting, some not so much.

Hope you’re well, and continued luck with your Gallaway project.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » April 15th, 2018, 5:05 pm

jkeyes1000 wrote:And, come to think of it, the reference to the weather might have been related to the meeting with Smith. As the cold would naturally stiffen the hands, which Erdnase would need to warm up before demonstrating the card moves.
Your intuition is spot on. Here is the relevant note:
He remembers scene vividly because it was a bitter cold winter day and there was no heat in the room. Smith kept his overcoat on, but recalls that Andrews did not. He remembers Andrews showing him some card tricks, and complaining that the cold made his fingers stiff. He remembers Andrews rubbing his hands together to warm them up, and telling him that it was necessary for him to keep his hands in good condition. He said that he kept them ―greased.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » April 15th, 2018, 5:16 pm

lybrary wrote:
jkeyes1000 wrote:And, come to think of it, the reference to the weather might have been related to the meeting with Smith. As the cold would naturally stiffen the hands, which Erdnase would need to warm up before demonstrating the card moves.
Your intuition is spot on. Here is the relevant note:
He remembers scene vividly because it was a bitter cold winter day and there was no heat in the room. Smith kept his overcoat on, but recalls that Andrews did not. He remembers Andrews showing him some card tricks, and complaining that the cold made his fingers stiff. He remembers Andrews rubbing his hands together to warm them up, and telling him that it was necessary for him to keep his hands in good condition. He said that he kept them ―greased.


Here is another relevant note: Smith also recalled nothing that would suggest Erdnase had a wife.

That would appear to exclude Gallaway, since had just recently married. A pesky fact that purchasers of that $45.00 Gallaway e-book hopefully won't notice.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » April 15th, 2018, 5:37 pm

Leonard Hevia wrote:Here is another relevant note: Smith also recalled nothing that would suggest Erdnase had a wife.
That would appear to exclude Gallaway, since had just recently married. A pesky fact that purchasers of that $45.00 Gallaway e-book hopefully won't notice.
Except as you noted yourself, the tradition for the groom to get a wedding band only started after WWII in the US. So married or not, there was no way for Smith to know if he was married, unless Erdnase would have told him. But why would Erdnase during a business meeting talk about his family? My experience is that family matters may come up after a business meeting at a dinner or in the bar. No indication from Smith that they had anything but work related meetings. If they would have indeed chatted about family and other non-business stuff then Smith would have known many other things directly from Erdnase and didn't have to guess such as where he came from, what else he did besides card sharking, or what his plans were going forward, etc.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby jkeyes1000 » April 15th, 2018, 5:38 pm

Leonard Hevia wrote:
jkeyes1000 wrote:Which only supports the notion that Erdnase's remarks were pertinent to the project. There is no discussion about home life--or personal habits that do not touch upon gambling. If he were as chatty as you suggest, then why would he have neglected to inform Smith of his career in the printing business (if he was Gallaway), or the fact that his father was a senator (if he was Sanders)?

You can speculate all you like about what a man you can't even identify would have talked about, but I think it more sensible to consider the distinct possibility that Erdnase was a business man, to whom "time was money". Thus, even he had been newly wed, he might have refrained from mentioning the wife.


A notion based on what? No reading or study? Mr. Keyes--your notions are like the half gallon containers of cheap ice cream in grocery stores. They weigh almost nothing because they're air whipped. The consumer is paying for a lot of air.

Smith told Gardner that Erdnase "was honest with me...He put more cards on the table than was necessary. He withheld nothing." This can be interpreted to mean that Erdnase was frank and open with him to a certain extent. It's strange that he wouldn't mention a fairly recent marriage, which is a life changing event for most people.


A "notion" is an idea, Leonard. To denigrate the term is silly. Especially when the complete phrase is, "supports the notion"--a reference to Roger M''s list of conversation topics, all of which pertain to the project itself, and none of which mention Erdnase's private life.

When Smith said that the author had been "honest" with him, I would think that might refer to his "confession" of having been a card cheat. There is no evidence that I have seen that Erdnase said a single word about any other person in his life. As you are a Sanders advocate, perhaps you can explain why he preferred to boast of his connection to Dalrymple, rather than to his illustrious father?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » April 15th, 2018, 5:52 pm

lybrary wrote:So married or not, there was no way for Smith to know if he was married, unless Erdnase would have told him.

Yet Smith got the feeling Erdnase wasn't married. Are you questioning Smith? Or do you only question Smith when his recollections don't quite match with your narration?

lybrary wrote:But why would Erdnase during a business meeting talk about his family?

He mentioned a relationship to Dalrymple the cartoonist. Isn't that a possible comment on family? That had nothing to do with the business at hand. And if that is a comment on family, why not comment on getting recently married?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jackpot » April 15th, 2018, 5:59 pm

jkeyes1000 wrote:...perhaps you can explain why he preferred to boast of his connection to Dalrymple, rather than to his illustrious father?

Although your question is not directed at me I find the answer rather obvious. Since it appears that Erdnase wished to maintain some anonymity it seems likely that he would be careful in the personal details he shared.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby jkeyes1000 » April 15th, 2018, 6:13 pm

Jackpot wrote:
jkeyes1000 wrote:...perhaps you can explain why he preferred to boast of his connection to Dalrymple, rather than to his illustrious father?

Although your question is not directed at me I find the answer rather obvious. Since it appears that Erdnase wished to maintain some anonymity it seems likely that he would be careful in the personal details he shared.


Interesting remark. You are suggesting that for Erdnase to mention his father (the senator) would be telling too much. Yet he apparently gave his real name (which Smith forgot), and said that he was related to Dalrymple.

Which Sanders was not (so far as we know).

So--Erdnase was "honest", but he didn't want Smith to know of his family (and he made up the Dalrymple thing)...yet he ought to have mentioned a wife if he had one. Have I got that straight?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jackpot » April 15th, 2018, 6:28 pm

jkeyes1000 wrote:Have I got that straight?

You have gone off on a different a tangent and you do not have that straight.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » April 15th, 2018, 6:37 pm

Leonard Hevia wrote:Yet Smith got the feeling Erdnase wasn't married. Are you questioning Smith?
Unless Smith was clairvoyant there was no way for him, or anybody else, to see or feel if Erdnase was married. So yes, I am questioning Smith on that.
Leonard Hevia wrote:He mentioned a relationship to Dalrymple the cartoonist. Isn't that a possible comment on family? That had nothing to do with the business at hand. And if that is a comment on family, why not comment on getting recently married?
First, we do not know if Erdnase ever made that comment. Second, commenting to an illustrator that Erdnase was related to another well-known illustrator, one that Smith was most likely aware of, would be much more interesting to Smith than if Erdnase was married or not.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » April 15th, 2018, 6:41 pm

Jackpot wrote:Since it appears that Erdnase wished to maintain some anonymity it seems likely that he would be careful in the personal details he shared.
Unless he wanted to plant a false lead. Or perhaps he never made that comment to Smith. Smith may have mixed this up with somebody else telling him they were related to Dalrymple.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby jkeyes1000 » April 15th, 2018, 6:45 pm

Jackpot wrote:
jkeyes1000 wrote:Have I got that straight?

You have gone off on a different a tangent and you do not have that straight.


I went of on the Sanders tangent, which is what I was asking Leonard about. I do not know if you are a Sanders advocate, so you might have merely been addressing my question, out of context.

I am simply showing how twisted the tale can get. It is much simpler and smoother, I think, to infer that Erdnase mentioned Dalrymple solely because he was an illustrator like Smith. In other words: because it was pertinent to their discussion. No other relatives needed to be mentioned.


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