Fool Us - Season 3

[Dustin Stinett]

I can live with that. As long as we--as both performers and viewers--always have a choice.

[Richard Paddon]

Besides he is a ghastly Australian and they are the most vulgar people on the face of the earth do alas nothing more can be expected of them

If I wasn't Australian, I'd be offended by that comment.

[performer]

Australians are never offended because they know perfectly well it is true.

[performer]

I can live with that. As long as we--as both performers and viewers--always have a choice.

Of course you have a choice. There is nothing illegal in the Excited States of America about using dubious material although there certainly is in other more sensible countries. Nobody can force anyone to have good taste and adhere to higher standards
which are acceptable to the more respectable among us. However, there are correct choices and incorrect choices. There is no shade of grey; it is either black or white. You either perform in a tasteful manner or you perform in a crude revolting one. In other words the right way or the wrong way. No in between I am afraid.

Magic has been cheesy and vulgar for a very long time. The art has been degraded beyond recognition and in fact is in danger of no longer being an art form but merely an exhibition of ugly, low class so called "entertainment"

As Victor Farelli once said, "Anyone can raise a vulgar laugh"

I am astonished that this even has to be explained by me. Still, some are born to lead and some are born to follow.

[Richard Paddon]

Australians are never offended because they know perfectly well it is true.

Indeed. It's the last part of our British ancestry.

[performer]

Yes indeed. The British are pretty vulgar too despite our stereotype posh image. I am quite sure that is where the Australians actually got it from. After all we transported all our convicts over to you and that is where you are descended from. It is not surprising that you have surpassed even the British in base vulgarity. I have found Australians to be very similar to the British but even worse albeit, with better weather. Thank goodness you are so far away that the world is safe from you all. I have often thought that if Australia was more geographically situated it would have taken over the world by now. They are incredibly independent and self confident people.

[performer]

Don't type! Use the dictation feature. There should be a small icon of a microphone. Tap and talk. You may have to make a few small corrections, but we aim for accuracy here. Your aim helps, too.

I just tried that microphone thing after looking for it for about half an hour. It was a complete disaster and made things even worse. I will not be using it again in case I have a nervous breakdown. My typing will improve dramatically when I do not use the phone which is 95 per cent of the time apart from weekends.

[AJM]

Isn't it ironic that, in a thread about what is and isn't acceptable, Mewis reverts to type with his 'hackneyed' views based on national stereotypes.

Andrew

[performer]

Isn't it ironic that, in a thread about what is and isn't acceptable, Mewis reverts to type with his 'hackneyed' views based on national stereotypes.

Andrew

I shall shortly be commenting on Scottish stereotypes. I happen to be an expert on the matter. There is a reason they lost at the battle of Culloden. The above post is an example of it. As far as I am concerned you are the nine of diamonds.

[AJM]

I would urge you to follow Richard's sage advice and take it one step further...don't dictate either.

[performer]

I now realise why Scotland will never achieve independence.

[Brad Henderson]

oh - Burn

or should that be 'burns'

[performer]

[quote="Brad Henderson"]oh - Burn

or should that be 'burns'[/quote .

Indeed.

"Wee, sleekit, cowrin' beastie"

I think that is quite relevant here as is

" Oh, wad some power the giftie give us
to see oorsels as others see us."

And no. That is not my phone this time. You have to speak Scottish to realise the spelling is correct. It applies to a certain poster here who has had the audacity to be rude to me without making a formal appointment to do so.

And I do speak Scottish. Fluently.

[Richard Kaufman]

Okay, we are now as far offtrack as we're going to get in this thread.

Mark: no more remarks about various nationalities, thank you.

[Terry]

Could we be getting a little knee jerk anal retentive on this? I've seen no negative press on the incidents mentioned except for here on the Forum.

Most people will not remember the lines or the tricks more than an hour if at all. We live in a bubble gum for the eyes society that is always on the lookout for the new thing.

[I.M. Magician]

I think it's safe to say that you can't be professional and use foul/offensive language and perform potentially dangerous effects using a spectator. Period.

Please excuse me if this has already been established. I am only trying to sum it all up quickly and to the point.

As much time should be invested in considering what effects are appropriate to perform and one's choice of language and patter as anything else when building a routine/performance.

If the language offends in any way, toss it. If an effect puts a spectator in any possible danger, don't use it.

So there's my two cents! How anyone can argue the above sensible rules is beyond me!

By the way, a performer should ALWAYS check to see if there will be ANY MINORS in the audience so that extra precaution can be used as to not expose them to ANYTHING that will decay them in ANY WAY!

Call me old fashion but it's this new hipster garbage that's destroying our culture beyond repair!

I'm done now. Thank you very much for listening...

Oh, and the reaction of the press certainly doesn't dictate right from wrong.

[JHostler]

I think it's safe to say that you can't be professional and use foul/offensive language...

Penn Jillette
Lenny Bruce
Salvador Dali
Lewis Black
John Szeles
Amy Schumer
Sarah Silverman
Jerry Sadowitz
Seth MacFarlane

The list goes on and on and on, crossing multiple modes/genres of art and entertainment. I understand this is stating the obvious, but the obvious apparently requires clarification.

[I.M. Magician]

Who says that they were/are professional?

By the way, we are speaking of the rules for magicians, not other forms of entertainment.

[Richard Kaufman]

Jerry Sadowitz is a magician.

[JHostler]

Jerry Sadowitz is a magician.

I'd also put Penn and the Szeles in that class. And Mullica pre-Skelton. And many others - particularly guys working behind a bar.

Bottom line is that magicians have no more obligation than comedians, authors, musicians, or any other type of artist to sign some sort of language-centric purity oath.

[Brad Henderson]

I think it's safe to say that you can't be professional and use foul/offensive language...

Penn Jillette
Lenny Bruce
Salvador Dali
Lewis Black
John Szeles
Amy Schumer
Sarah Silverman
Jerry Sadowitz
Seth MacFarlane

The list goes on and on and on, crossing multiple modes/genres of art and entertainment. I understand this is stating the obvious, but the obvious apparently requires clarification.

and yet, all of these people created their material with intention and use it to provoke or incite. they take creative and interesting approaches to taboo subjects. they push boundaries.

a magician parroting a hack line about boobs is doing none of those things.

when magic has its Lenny Bruce they will find no bigger supporter than I.

Shawn Farquhar is no Lenny Bruce. (nothing personal to Shawn).

I'm all in favor of crossing lines. the material we are currently discussing doesn't. it's a throw back at best.

[performer]

Jerry Sadowitz is a magician.

He is indeed a magician. He is also Scottish but it seems that I sm not allowed to mention that despite the fact that I sm Scottish too!

However, he is a fan of mine and therefore I feel obliged to defend him. It is true that he is just as foul mouthed and disgusting as the other awful people mentioned but I have noticed one thing (although I concede I may be mistaken).

His comedy is one thing but when he does magic not a single bit of impropriety passes his lips. Not a smidgen of it. I saw him on TV once and he did five minutes or so of card magic among twenty five minutes or so of comedy. An oasis of beauty in a sea of filth.

I don't care what comedians or other entertainers do. I won't like their work but it is none of my business. However Magic IS my business. I take it note seriously than most of you. I have devoted my life to it.

This being the case I detest and have always detested the way that my art has been degraded and trivialised by those who do not regard it with the reverence that I do.

Many of you treat my art in an abominable manner and it disgusts me. It should be kept clean. Much as I am reluctant to agree with Andrew I am afraid that on this occasion I have no choice in the matter.

Some of you should be ashamed of yourself for approving of magic being dragged into the gutter.

[performer]

Oh, it wasn't Andrew I was agreeing with after all. I am quite relieved about this and I shall resume being rude to him whenever I sense further impertinence.

[Jack Shalom]

Brad Henderson wrote:

and yet, all of these people created their material with intention and use it to provoke or incite. they take creative and interesting approaches to taboo subjects. they push boundaries.

a magician parroting a hack line about boobs is doing none of those things.

This.

[JHostler]

Brad Henderson wrote:

and yet, all of these people created their material with intention and use it to provoke or incite. they take creative and interesting approaches to taboo subjects. they push boundaries.

a magician parroting a hack line about boobs is doing none of those things.

This.

I.M. Magician's original contention can be read above - in short, he suggested that bad language and the like are inherently "unprofessional." This is clearly not the case. No one has asserted that Shawn's line wasn't old or off-the-shelf. But he's a successful, likeable pro, and it seems the only folks complaining are the ones right here. So let's draw a distinction between matters of "offensiveness" and originality. If someone finds the use of old one-liners problematic, let's extend that notion. Toss your cards and cups 'n' balls in the circular file and be original. Until then, or until you enjoy Shawn's level of success, all this pontification smacks of sour grapes.

[Brad Henderson]

the only thing worse than a tired line is a tired defense.

Taco Bell is successful. but that doesn't mean their food isn't crap.

you can make people feel new feelings while performing classic material. that's what artists do. to compare that to tired lines is silly.

if you want to push the edge, push the edge. regurgitating stupid jokes in the same manner and same context as ever other parrot has regurgitated them is not pushing the edge.

it's inartistic

it's insulting

and it shows a lack of thoughtfulness

even if you can convince someone to pay you for it.

[erdnasephile]

I liked Mr. Farquhar's set and I was not offended on Ms. Hannigan's behalf.

However, with respect, I hesitate to label magicians who are offended by the line as necessarily being envious of Shawn. I've found that what some people find offensive is as individual as what some people find funny. IMHO, each may have their own valid personal reasons for their feelings, apart from alterior motives, so I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt in terms of the motive for their criticisms.

Perhaps such jealousy exists, but I certainly don't let that factor into how I feel about what famous magicians do. I'd hate to think I'm alone in this.

[performer]

There is no place for smutty remarks in magic. The very SECOND the slightest vulgarity is exhibited is the very second the performer in question is a bad magician. And I don't give a damn how "successful" he is.

Mr Hostler claims in an earlier post that magicians have no more obligation to present exemplary and wholesome material than any other kind of entertainer. Well, they bloody well DO! If they don't then they are bad magicians. Period. And I don't care how well respected they are by other magicians.

If I were in charge of hiring magicians the very second the SLIGHTEST vulgarity was included in their performance they would be out on their ear.

[I.M. Magician]

Very good performer! Thank you.

Those who use vulgar inappropriate language have no class. I can't wait to hear someone argue that!

If you attend a comedian's off color midnight show, you are expecting it all and the audience will have that in common. On the other hand, if you take your wife and kids to a matinee and the language is flying, that's something else.

[I.M. Magician]

Perhaps I should clarify how I am using the word "professional". I am referring to one's demeanor while performing, not whether or not they perform for a living.

When you call someone unprofessional, you are not saying that they don't make a living as a performer. What is being said is that the way they are conducting themselves is inappropriate or contrary to how a professional should behave.

Of course, I am now expecting someone to argue that. So, we will have to agree to disagree.

[Ted M]

Hey, Max Maven responds to this thread via his audio column in Genii this month (Aug 2016 issue).

[performer]

What is an audio column?

[Doug Thornton]

What is an audio column?

It's available on the online version of Genii. It's Max's voice only.

[performer]

Thank you kindly

[AJM]

Steve

I'm afraid I disagree with you on this one.

Andrew

[I.M. Magician]

Steve

I'm afraid I disagree with you on this one.

Andrew

No soup for you!

[AJM]

It wouldn't be Tenyo soup by any chance?



Andrew

[NCMarsh]

Max's column is fantastic.

[erdnasephile]

I enjoyed Mr. Maven's audio commentary as well. I always thought that line originated in Copperfield's "Top Ten" routine with Cindy Williams. It was a kick to find out who really came up with it! (For context, "Top Ten" starts around the 34:30 mark)




I was sold the "Top Ten" trick when I was very young (Thanks, Stan!), but I didn't have the maturity to realize that Copperfield's presentation wasn't part of what I bought. So, when performing it, I essentially did my best Copperfield impression. Because of my youth, I also truly didn't understand the implications of the line in question--I just thought "You just made an album cover very happy" was because the album cover felt loved from an innocent hug.

Unfortunately, during the first show I performed "Top Ten" at, I chose a spectator who was older than my mother. I'm pretty sure the audience thought that line was a whole 'nother world of creepy when I said it!

[I.M. Magician]

It wouldn't be Tenyo soup by any chance?



Andrew

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=No ... ORM=VRDGAR