ERDNASE

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mam
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby mam » August 23rd, 2015, 11:35 am

Zenner wrote:
mam wrote:
Zenner wrote:The name "E.C. Andrews" appears several times in those Files but there is absolutely no evidence that it was Emory Cobb Andrews.

But very, very, very, very likely.


Please explain why you wrote that.

Because I find it very, very, very, very likely that one "E. C. Andrews" found in the bankruptcy files of a printing house is a known "Emory Cobb Andrews" that worked for another printing house next doors during the same time period. If you disagree then I have no further comment on this.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby mam » August 23rd, 2015, 11:38 am

Richard Hatch wrote:Yes, this misses what I believe to be the most important occurrence of "Andrews" in the bankruptcy files, from which all the above follow. It doesn't show up in OCR searches, alas. It is on p. 627 of the lybrary PDF. I would characterize it as "E. ? Andrews" where the middle initial appears to be a capital "C" written over a capital "B". This is in the Debtor's Petition of February 10, 1903 and I believe it predates the above references. I believe the above references were transcriptions from this document's handwritten list of creditors. The document may also be seen here:
http://askalexander.org/display/66804/M ... resource/9
The $3 debt is listed as being for "Goods sold and delivered"

What are the ledgers referenced in the first column? E.g. "1-429" for that entry.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » August 23rd, 2015, 11:46 am

Bill Mullins wrote:What is outlandish is the idea that by finding one handwritten character from the hundred or so on the copyright application that is similar to one character in some unknown number of signatures is in any way evidence that the two things were written by the same person. One matched character doesn't outweigh 99 clearly different ones.

Obviously my suggestion that Gallaway wrote one letter on the application was ridiculous -- to emphasize how far out was your suggestion that, based on one "matching" letter, the two documents were from the same hand.

Which I clearly emphasized is NOT what I concluded. I simply concluded that the possibility does exist unlike your categorical denial of it. We don't know who filled out the form, but Gallaway can't be ruled out at this point. The similarity of the y opens this possibility.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » August 23rd, 2015, 12:08 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:It's a fair read of his book that he had read much of the conjuring literature, but he doesn't say that he read the gambling literature.

Bill, you are not exhibiting a particularly large amount of common sense here. So if Erdnase, as we pretty much all agree including yourself, has read the magic literature of his time, why would he suddenly change behavior and not read about his other interest - gambling and card advantage play? Of course he would. He clearly was somebody who read extensively and also somebody who knew a lot about books in general, otherwise he would not have pursued a self-publishing route. His broad vocabulary and eloquence also underscore that he was widely read, not just in magic and gambling. So yes, he definitely also read the prevailing gambling literature. None of this excludes that he may have missed some of the more obscure publications, and nobody can say for sure if he indeed read everything under the sun in magic and gambling. But he definitely read most of the magic and gambling literature available at that time.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby mam » August 23rd, 2015, 1:36 pm

I'm trying to find a photo of Emory Cobb Andrews. There definitely is one in the Cap and Gown yearbooks from the University of Chicago, since he was member of a lot of clubs and many of them have group photos in there. But it's sometimes a bit hard to make out facial features from low-res scans of really old photos. These are four of reasonable quality, Andrews should be in most of them:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/307 ... ews/01.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/307 ... ews/02.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/307 ... ews/03.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/307 ... ews/04.jpg

Can you spot him?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby mam » August 23rd, 2015, 3:52 pm

I found this photo of Emory Cobb Andrews:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/307 ... ews/05.jpg

It's from the playbook of the musical comedy "The academic alchemist".

Looking at that photo, I've come to the conclusion that these photos are of Andrews as well:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/307 ... ews/07.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/307 ... ews/08.jpg

And maybe this one:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/307 ... ews/06.jpg

A funny coincidence by the way, guess what street he lived on?

Vernon Avenue :)

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 23rd, 2015, 4:48 pm

Bravo on the findings. Even if he did write "purse" I'm gonna hold out for a little more evidence. :D
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby mam » August 23rd, 2015, 5:05 pm

Interesting to note about Emory Cobb Andrews is that he did a lot of things: photography, etchings, played the mandolin, banjo and clarinet, and led the university orchestra, wrote plays and acted in them, editor on the yearbook, etc. as well of course being an expert chemist and skilled enough in this as applied to print technology to later having written books on the subjects of ink and color.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 23rd, 2015, 11:28 pm

mam wrote:I found this photo of Emory Cobb Andrews:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/307 ... ews/05.jpg

It's from the playbook of the musical comedy "The academic alchemist".



Here is the same picture, in the context of the play from which it was taken "The Deceitful Dean."

Andrews makes a better looking girl than some of his classmates.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 23rd, 2015, 11:49 pm

lybrary wrote:
Bill Mullins wrote:It's a fair read of his book that he had read much of the conjuring literature, but he doesn't say that he read the gambling literature.

Bill, you are not exhibiting a particularly large amount of common sense here. So if Erdnase, as we pretty much all agree including yourself, has read the magic literature of his time, why would he suddenly change behavior and not read about his other interest - gambling and card advantage play? Of course he would. He clearly was somebody who read extensively and also somebody who knew a lot about books in general, otherwise he would not have pursued a self-publishing route. His broad vocabulary and eloquence also underscore that he was widely read, not just in magic and gambling. So yes, he definitely also read the prevailing gambling literature. None of this excludes that he may have missed some of the more obscure publications, and nobody can say for sure if he indeed read everything under the sun in magic and gambling. But he definitely read most of the magic and gambling literature available at that time.



Chris -- re-read my posts. I believe he read gambling literature. I don't see where he said "I read gambling literature."

Re-read your posts. You said "He writes so himself that he has pretty much read all the past literature both in magic and in gambling." He said something like that about magic, but not about gambling.

And it is of minor importance, and not something you and I should be disagreeing about in such depth. We should be disagreeing on whether Gallaway wrote EATCT (he didn't).

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby mam » August 24th, 2015, 3:43 am

Bill Mullins wrote:Here is the same picture, in the context of the play from which it was taken "The Deceitful Dean."

Andrews makes a better looking girl than some of his classmates.

He is very good looking in that picture.

I'm currently trying to figure out who wrote this piece, as it uses the word "subterfuge".

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby magicam » August 24th, 2015, 4:19 am

DChung wrote:… Moreover you completely sidestepped my question about what "strong possibility" means. …

Still waiting, Chris, for an answer to DChung’s reasonable – and quite pertinent – question. Perhaps it’s too much to demand a precise probability (e.g., 47.5%), but as an expert Dr. Olsson must surely be aware of the evidentiary vagueness/malleability of “strong possibility” – without clear context and explication, I find the weight of his expert opinion to be slight.

[As a general note, I thought DChung bent over backwards to be fair and clear with you on all his points, and sad to say, found your responses disappointing.]

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby mam » August 24th, 2015, 4:43 am

Hey all,

I'm thinking about starting to put together a central repository of information/data/materials for everything related to Erdnase. It would basically be a page/website with all the people, locations, dates, etc. with links to documents, photos and so on, as well as all verified facts including their sources. Sort of a condensed view of everything we know at this point. And not trying to "build a case" for any specific candidate. The purpose would be to not having to hunt every piece of information down through this thread, books, magazines, etc. when looking for some fact or another.

Three questions:

  1. Does anything like this already exist?
  2. Would anyone other than me find it useful?
  3. Would anyone be willing to help out building it?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Zenner » August 24th, 2015, 6:44 am

mam wrote: Because I find it very, very, very, very likely that one "E. C. Andrews" found in the bankruptcy files of a printing house is a known "Emory Cobb Andrews" that worked for another printing house next doors during the same time period. If you disagree then I have no further comment on this.


I have seen no evidence that Emory Cobb Andrews ever worked for a "printing house". He worked for Philip Ruxton Inks - a manufacturer of printing inks - and Ruxton's was listed seperately as a creditor in the McKinney Bankruptcy Files. So please tell me why you are saying that McKinney would owe money to Emory. He can't have been at Ruxton's above a few months and yet you are saying that he himself had a seperate contract with McKinney to supply and deliver his own goods.

I would dearly love to hear your comments on this, so please don't just dismiss me.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Joe Pecore » August 24th, 2015, 6:49 am

mam wrote:Hey all,
I'm thinking about starting to put together a central repository of information/data/materials for everything related to Erdnase.

You can expand on http://geniimagazine.com/magicpedia/Erdnase and make whatever new pages needed. You can upload pictures, files, etc. I'll help if needed. We can make a specific Erdnase "category" to group them all together too.
Share your knowledge on the MagicPedia wiki.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » August 24th, 2015, 7:31 am

Bill Mullins wrote:I believe he read gambling literature.

Very well, then we are in basic agreement on this point. I would phrase it stronger, that he extensively read gambling literature, everything he could get his hands on, just as he did with magic literature. But if you do not want to go that far that is fine.

Knowing that Erdnase was very well read in gambling, it is significant that we know that Gallaway had several gambling books in his library as well as a first edition of EATCT. When somebody has several books on the same subject it is a straight forward assumption that he must have had an interest in that subject.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 24th, 2015, 9:13 am

Zenner wrote: He can't have been at Ruxton's above a few months


So how did Thompson know him prior to Feb 1902, in order to use his name while dealing with McKinney?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 24th, 2015, 9:36 am

lybrary wrote:[Gallaway] clearly was somebody who read extensively and also somebody who knew a lot about books in general, otherwise he would not have pursued a self-publishing route.


You are drawing many conclusions from scant evidence, but this is one of the biggest leaps. Are there any reasons that one would self-publish rather than be published traditionally besides:
1. Traditional publishers won't take the book (thus the existence of vanity presses)
2. The author thinks he could make more money by publishing himself than by being traditionally published.

I have never heard of a case where someone self-published a book because they liked to read.


lybrary wrote:
Bill Mullins wrote:I believe he read gambling literature.

Very well, then we are in basic agreement on this point. I would phrase it stronger, that he extensively read gambling literature, everything he could get his hands on.


Yes, you could do that. And you may well be right. But there is absolutely no evidence to support going that far.

When somebody has several books on the same subject it is a straight forward assumption that he must have had an interest in that subject.


But that's all it is -- an assumption. I have more than several books on the following categories:

magic
gambling
birds
astronomy
light houses
Von Braun's rocket team/Peenemuende
telescope making
comic books
numismatics
trading cards
science fiction/horror criticism
Tennessee history
mental mathematics (a la Arthur Benjamin)
recreational mathematics/puzzles
American slang

(and that's just at home -- my technical library at work covers several more topics)

and I'm not so knowledgeable about any of those subjects that I could write a book as comprehensive as Erdnase's.

Gallaway had some gambling books. He likely was interested in the subject. Doesn't mean he knew enough about the subject to write his own book. Think about it -- most people who have a small (or large) collection of gambling books aren't competent to write one. Your own experience as a book dealer must bear this out.

mam wrote:Hey all,

I'm thinking about starting to put together a central repository of information/data/materials for everything related to Erdnase. It would basically be a page/website with all the people, locations, dates, etc. with links to documents, photos and so on, as well as all verified facts including their sources. Sort of a condensed view of everything we know at this point. And not trying to "build a case" for any specific candidate. The purpose would be to not having to hunt every piece of information down through this thread, books, magazines, etc. when looking for some fact or another.

Three questions:

  1. Does anything like this already exist?
  2. Would anyone other than me find it useful?
  3. Would anyone be willing to help out building it?


I've got a ton of stuff like this on my own computer hard drive. But it wouldn't be appropriate to post it online because some of it is personal scanned copies of things that are still in copyright (magazine articles, books etc).

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » August 24th, 2015, 10:03 am

Zenner wrote:
mam wrote: Because I find it very, very, very, very likely that one "E. C. Andrews" found in the bankruptcy files of a printing house is a known "Emory Cobb Andrews" that worked for another printing house next doors during the same time period. If you disagree then I have no further comment on this.


I have seen no evidence that Emory Cobb Andrews ever worked for a "printing house". He worked for Philip Ruxton Inks - a manufacturer of printing inks - and Ruxton's was listed seperately as a creditor in the McKinney Bankruptcy Files. So please tell me why you are saying that McKinney would owe money to Emory. He can't have been at Ruxton's above a few months and yet you are saying that he himself had a seperate contract with McKinney to supply and deliver his own goods.

I would dearly love to hear your comments on this, so please don't just dismiss me.

Peter Zenner


According to the biographical information in the publisher's preface to his 1911 book, Color and its Application to Printing (available in Google books), after working as a de facto assistant instructor in Chemistry at the University of Chicago, he entered commercial life working for the Corn Products Refining Company before "connecting himself" with Ruxton. Though the exact time line is not given, it seems unlikely to me that he would have been at Ruxton during the period in question, when the author of the book was known to have been dealing with McKinney (Feb-March 1902).

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » August 24th, 2015, 10:22 am

This is probably just a coincidence (!) but I post it here in case anyone sees fit to pursue it:
Emory Cobb Andrews' mother's maiden name appears to have been Cobb (Ellen Cobb Andrews, born July 11, 1847 in Ledyard, NY, died Sept 26, 1910 in Chicago), raising the possibility that he was related to Benjamin Franklin Cobb (born 1844) who wrote many books, including one published in Chicago in 1902 illustrated by.... Marshall D. Smith! (That would be Jack Henderson Down East).

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 24th, 2015, 11:06 am

There's been a lot of information (all interesting) about Emory Cobb Andrews posted lately. I've posted some of it myself.

But no one here thinks he had anything to do with the writing, printing or publishing of Expert at the Card Table, do they?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » August 24th, 2015, 11:27 am

Bill Mullins wrote:
lybrary wrote:[Gallaway] clearly was somebody who read extensively and also somebody who knew a lot about books in general, otherwise he would not have pursued a self-publishing route.

I have never heard of a case where someone self-published a book because they liked to read.

Bill, I think you can't read. First, my comment was related to Erdnase not Gallaway as you injected above. So let me restate my argument. Somebody who chooses to self-publish, finds a printer, pays for the print run, hires an illustrator, and is comfortable to then sell and market his book is certainly somebody who is comfortable with the book creation process and the book trade in general. Yes, I do have a lot of experience dealing with authors and one of the primary reason they come to me is because many have little idea how to create, publish and market their book. They are perfectly qualified to write it and can do that easily, but stuff that comes after writing is unfamiliar to them. That is why publishers do exist. The fact that Erdnase chose to self-publish demonstrates a certain familiarity with the book creation and publishing process.

Bill Mullins wrote:
lybrary wrote:
Bill Mullins wrote:I believe he read gambling literature.

Very well, then we are in basic agreement on this point. I would phrase it stronger, that he extensively read gambling literature, everything he could get his hands on.


Yes, you could do that. And you may well be right. But there is absolutely no evidence to support going that far.

Yes there is. Humans are creatures of habit. Since he describes his own extensive reading in magic it supports the fact that he most likely did the same in gambling, too. His book is about half on gambling related stuff and half on magic related stuff. These two subjects seem to be of about equal interest to him. All of this suggests that he did do as much extensive reading on gambling as he did on magic. Actually you could argue that the gambling side is a bit more important to him and thus he would have done at least as much research on gambling as he did on magic.

Bill Mullins wrote:
When somebody has several books on the same subject it is a straight forward assumption that he must have had an interest in that subject.


But that's all it is -- an assumption. I have more than several books on the following categories:

magic
gambling
birds
astronomy
light houses
Von Braun's rocket team/Peenemuende
telescope making
comic books
numismatics
trading cards
science fiction/horror criticism
Tennessee history
mental mathematics (a la Arthur Benjamin)
recreational mathematics/puzzles
American slang

(and that's just at home -- my technical library at work covers several more topics)

and I'm not so knowledgeable about any of those subjects that I could write a book as comprehensive as Erdnase's.

And that is all I am arguing right now. I am arguing Gallaway had an interest in gambling. This fact makes him a better Erdnase candidate than without it. Can you show even that much with ES Andrews or WE Sanders? Can you demonstrate that they had an interest in gambling? Gallaway had.

Bill Mullins wrote:Gallaway had some gambling books. He likely was interested in the subject.

Then we are in agreement. That is all I am trying to establish at this point. We have evidence that Gallaway had an interest in gambling. The fact that he had a copy of EATCT would allow us to go a step further and say he likely had an interest in card moves, too, but I am fine if some do not want to go that far. Gallaway's interest in gambling is already a lot more than we can say of ES Andrews and WE Sanders on that subject.
Last edited by lybrary on August 24th, 2015, 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 24th, 2015, 11:35 am

The fact that Gallaway had a copy of any book from a company he may have worked for in any capacity means NOTHING. ZERO. Rather than assuming the book was in possession because he had some interest in it, it is just as easy to assume that someone else at the company handed him a copy one day in passing to, for example, look at the binding or the typesetting.

And, Chris, please maintain some decorum--which precludes telling Bill that he can't read.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby mam » August 24th, 2015, 11:38 am

Zenner wrote:I have seen no evidence that Emory Cobb Andrews ever worked for a "printing house". He worked for Philip Ruxton Inks - a manufacturer of printing inks - and Ruxton's was listed seperately as a creditor in the McKinney Bankruptcy Files. So please tell me why you are saying that McKinney would owe money to Emory. He can't have been at Ruxton's above a few months and yet you are saying that he himself had a seperate contract with McKinney to supply and deliver his own goods.

Doesn't really matter if it's "printing house" or "printing supply house", since my point is that he worked in the center of all Chicago's printing business and it is no surprise to have him show up in McKinney records. I can come up with any number of reasons why McKinney owed him money, one for each potential "thing" or "service" they got from him but had not paid for yet, i.e. same as with everyone else in those files, per definition.

Where do you get the idea Andrews only worked a few months at Ruxton's? How did he end up second vice-president of the entire company in such short time?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » August 24th, 2015, 11:41 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:The fact that Gallaway had a copy of any book from a company he may have worked for in any capacity means NOTHING. ZERO. Rather than assuming the book was in possession because he had some interest in it, it is just as easy to assume that someone else at the company handed him a copy one day in passing to, for example, look at the binding or the typesetting.

Richard you are forgetting that we know that he also had several other books on gambling. If it would be only EATCT then your argument would be stronger. But since he had several other books on gambling it does support the fact that he actually had an interest in that subject rather than an accidental ownership of the book. You yourself stated earlier that an employee of McKinney would pick up the book because he had an interest. What changed that you don't think this is a likely scenario?

Richard Kaufman wrote:And, Chris, please maintain some decorum--which precludes telling Bill that he can't read.

Bill injected Gallaway as the subject of my sentence when it is clear I meant Erdnase. That is a misrepresentation of my opinion. I don't look at such things lightly. It would deserve much stronger language in my opinion.
Last edited by lybrary on August 24th, 2015, 12:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby mam » August 24th, 2015, 11:42 am

Bill Mullins wrote:There's been a lot of information (all interesting) about Emory Cobb Andrews posted lately. I've posted some of it myself.

But no one here thinks he had anything to do with the writing, printing or publishing of Expert at the Card Table, do they?

Not yet, at all, but for some reason I find him interesting enough to dig a bit more. He was at the right place (down to the block) at the right time and has a profile largely in tune with e.g. Alexander's.

However, as I wrote earlier, he's too young to have authored the book.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Brad Jeffers » August 24th, 2015, 2:34 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:And, Chris, please maintain some decorum--which precludes telling Bill that he can't read.

Leave them alone.

I am enjoying the exchanges between Chris and Bill.

It is reminiscent of the Point/Counterpoint exchanges between Dan Aykroyd and Jane Curtain.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 24th, 2015, 5:13 pm

lybrary wrote: First, my comment was related to Erdnase not Gallaway as you injected above.


You've been making the argument for weeks that Gallaway was Erdnase. Are you backing off of that now? My work here is done . . .

I didn't mean to misrepresent your statement.

So let me restate my argument. Somebody who chooses to self-publish, finds a printer, pays for the print run, hires an illustrator, and is comfortable to then sell and market his book is certainly somebody who is comfortable with the book creation process and the book trade in general.


This isn't restating the old argument, it is making a new one. The old argument (the one you have been making, that I was responding to) was that Gallaway (when writing as Erdnase) was a book lover, therefore he would have been inclined to self-publish. (a conclusion that does not follow from the stated premise, BTW)

Yes, I do have a lot of experience dealing with authors and one of the primary reason they come to me is because many have little idea how to create, publish and market their book. They are perfectly qualified to write it and can do that easily, but stuff that comes after writing is unfamiliar to them.


The experience I was hoping you'd recall was that of a book dealer (see my post above, where I said "experience as a book dealer") selling to readers, not as a publisher. Just because a person has, or reads, a number of books on a subject does not mean that they could write on it. I think Expert is such a good book because the author brought his experience to the text, not his research and regurgitation of other gambling (and magic) books. If you want to convince me that Gallaway is Erdnase, show me that he gambled, not that he read about gambling.


Bill Mullins wrote:
lybrary wrote:Very well, then we are in basic agreement on this point. I would phrase it stronger, that he extensively read gambling literature, everything he could get his hands on.


Yes, you could do that. And you may well be right. But there is absolutely no evidence to support going that far.

Yes there is. Humans are creatures of habit. Since he describes his own extensive reading in magic it supports the fact that he most likely did the same in gambling, too.


Anytime you say something is "most likely", you are offering opinion, not citing evidence. Give me one line from Expert that shows the author "pretty much read all the past literature . . . in gambling" and I'll back off from this.

His book is about half on gambling related stuff and half on magic related stuff. These two subjects seem to be of about equal interest to him.


If I were in a nit-picky mood, I'd point out that he wrote 40% more about gambling than he did about magic (116 pages vs 81), but I'm not . . .

And that is all I am arguing right now. I am arguing Gallaway had an interest in gambling. This fact makes him a better Erdnase candidate than without it. Can you show even that much with ES Andrews or WE Sanders? Can you demonstrate that they had an interest in gambling?
Marty's Genii article on Sanders describes his gambling debts, the card games he played, and his trips to the Silver Bow, a gambling club.

Brad Jeffers wrote:
Richard Kaufman wrote:And, Chris, please maintain some decorum--which precludes telling Bill that he can't read.

Leave them alone.

I am enjoying the exchanges between Chris and Bill.

It is reminiscent of the Point/Counterpoint exchanges between Dan Aykroyd and Jane Curtain.
A couple of folks have suggested that Chris is being rude to me -- so far, I have not been offended by anything he's written (and to the extent I may have offended him, it was not my intention, and I apologize). I've had much worse things said about me on the internet (and probably have said worse myself). I've been online for quite a while and have a reasonably thick skin about such things. Chris and I are discussing ideas and the evidence behind them -- it isn't personal. He is giving as good as he is getting.

I hope, when this is all said and done, if we were to meet at a convention we could shake hands and have a beer. We continue to have emails off line which are much more collegial than some of the exchanges here.

But if he says, "Bill, you ignorant slut" to me, all bets are off . . .

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » August 24th, 2015, 8:41 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:You've been making the argument for weeks that Gallaway was Erdnase. Are you backing off of that now? My work here is done . . .

Perhaps you didn't catch my drift. Yes, I am convinced that Gallaway is Erdnase, but what I have tried to establish over the last days is, to use a mathematical term, our largest common denominator. What can the anti-Gallaway folks and myself agree on? We already made a big step forward. We have established that you agree that: Gallaway was likely interested in gambling. I agree with this, you agree with this, perhaps others can agree with this, too.

Thanks for correcting me on Sanders. I am not an expert on him. So Sanders gambled. Good. That means more to me than his little magic trick in his notebook. What about ES Andrews? Anything we can say about gambling?

Bill Mullins wrote:I think Expert is such a good book because the author brought his experience to the text, not his research and regurgitation of other gambling (and magic) books. If you want to convince me that Gallaway is Erdnase, show me that he gambled, not that he read about gambling.

As I am sure you know a lot of expertise starts with an interest, then comes reading, then experimenting, and then perhaps innovating. Showing that Gallaway was interested in gambling, that he read about it is therefore the first step. Yes, it does not prove that he actually gambled or did any of the moves in EATCT, but it also does not exclude it. His interest in gambling makes him more likely Erdnase than having no interest in gambling. Do you agree?

Now that we have agreement on how to interpret the fact that he owned several gambling books, let's move on to the next set of evidence. Something new I am sure you will enjoy. Based on the feedback over the last days regarding if Erdnase is witty we received general confirmation that he is. Tom Sawyer calls it 'witticisms' in one of his blog posts. Bill Mullins commented "...I can see why others would say witty." MAM wrote: "Definitely witty, in my opinion." I also asked several people via email and they all agreed Erdnase is witty. See what I do? I like to be objective. I am not only stating my opinion. I am actually making an effort to check if my opinion is something others can agree with. I also think Erdnase is witty. Ok, so with Erdnase is witty in our mind please read this from a 1928 Inland Printer article:

"The addresses made for the occasion were masterly in every sense of the word; they fairly bristled with wit and sarcasm. Such a trio as Tom Quin, Theodore Regensteiner, and Edward Gallaway surpass anything in wit and humor that Flo Ziegfeld or Earl Caroll so far has produced."

Aha, so Gallaway was also witty: Erdnase witty, Gallaway witty. Nice match. This adds to the linguistic metrics, because wit goes beyond merely counting and comparing words. It is a special gift a style that isn't very common. That is part of why Erdnase is such a good read. He writes interestingly and wit and humor is part of that. I leave you with contemplating this parallel between Gallaway and Erdnase.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Zenner » August 25th, 2015, 9:28 am

mam wrote:
Zenner wrote:I have seen no evidence that Emory Cobb Andrews ever worked for a "printing house". He worked for Philip Ruxton Inks - a manufacturer of printing inks - and Ruxton's was listed seperately as a creditor in the McKinney Bankruptcy Files. So please tell me why you are saying that McKinney would owe money to Emory. He can't have been at Ruxton's above a few months and yet you are saying that he himself had a seperate contract with McKinney to supply and deliver his own goods.

Doesn't really matter if it's "printing house" or "printing supply house", since my point is that he worked in the center of all Chicago's printing business and it is no surprise to have him show up in McKinney records. I can come up with any number of reasons why McKinney owed him money, one for each potential "thing" or "service" they got from him but had not paid for yet, i.e. same as with everyone else in those files, per definition.

Where do you get the idea Andrews only worked a few months at Ruxton's? How did he end up second vice-president of the entire company in such short time?


If that entry in the McKinney Files really was Emory Cobb Andrews then it would be a surprise, given his background and employment up to that point.

He graduated from Chicago University in August, 1900, and worked for a while for either (or both) the "G.S. Refining Company" and the "Corn Products Refining Company" (or perhaps they were one and the same?).

He then applied for a passport on June 19, 1901, and set sail for England on July 3 intending to return that autumn. When is autumn in Chicago? October-November? His occupation was stated to be "whol linen", or something like that - "wholesale linen"? Whatever it was it doesn't sound like anything to do with inks or printing.

So he can't have started at Ruxton's until sometime after his return from England towards the end of 1901. That's where I get the idea that he can only only have been at Ruxton's for a few months! The contract between "E.C. Andrews" and McKinney's was made in August, 1902. I would say that 8 or 9 months = a few months, wouldn't you?

He then worked his way up to being manager of the Chicago office by 1910, Second Vice-President by 1913 and Vice President by 1918.

Yes, he was a clever chap - “A student at Princeton and a graduate of the University of Chicago, Mr. Andrews specialized in chemistry, and, though not officially on the faculty roll, was for a time in effect assistant instructor in chemistry in the University of Chicago."

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby mam » August 25th, 2015, 9:44 am

Zenner wrote:If that entry in the McKinney Files really was Emory Cobb Andrews then it would be a surprise, given his background and employment up to that point. […]

Thanks for all the additional information, you had more facts than I. Would you mind sharing the sources? I have the university info already, and some of the employment info based on alumni records and the introductions to his books, but e.g. the passport info I have not.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Pete McCabe » August 25th, 2015, 12:09 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:Are there any reasons that one would self-publish rather than be published traditionally besides:
1. Traditional publishers won't take the book (thus the existence of vanity presses)
2. The author thinks he could make more money by publishing himself than by being traditionally published.


Just as a data point, I self-published Scripting Magic a few years ago for neither of these reasons. I never asked a "traditional" magic publisher if they would take the book, and I had no expectation about making more money either way.

I did it because it seemed like a good idea and a fun project, where I would learn a lot. I did.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Tom Sawyer » August 25th, 2015, 3:39 pm

I am not certain what assumptions are being made regarding the date that Emory Cobb Andrews began working for Philip Ruxton. It seems, however, that the assumption is that he worked there as early as 1901 or 1902. Or maybe someone has presented evidence for a definite date, and I have missed it or forgotten it.

Anyway, based on Google Books search results, it appears to me that he began working for Ruxton no earlier than 1905. The items listed in the results were "snippet view" items, and the search results under those circumstances are often easy to misinterpret, but this was supported by three seemingly separate listings.

--Tom Sawyer
At least for the time being, I have taken down my S.W. Erdnase blog.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Edward Finck » August 25th, 2015, 5:41 pm

lybrary wrote:When somebody has several books on the same subject it is a straight forward assumption that he must have had an interest in that subject.


You must not be serious about that. Did you ever meet Jay Marshall? Jay, like many others, bought many books on subjects that didn't directly interest him. Jay even owned a book or two he wasn't secretly the author of...
Also, what other books on gambling or magic did Gallaway have in his library? You've mentioned repeatedly that he had other gambling books in his collection, how many and what are they? Were they all printed after Erdnase's book? Perhaps it was his handling of some aspect of the printing of Erdnase that started his interest in gambling and the other books in his collection were published and purchased after Erdnase.
The fact that Gallaway later worked for Bentley, Murray and Co., a firm who printed various materials including score cards sometimes used for book making, shows that Gallaway's reputed few other gambling books might have been collected, like Erdnase, because he was involved in printing them later in his life.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » August 25th, 2015, 5:52 pm

Edward Finck wrote:
lybrary wrote:When somebody has several books on the same subject it is a straight forward assumption that he must have had an interest in that subject.


You must not be serious about that.

Oh yes I am.

Edward Finck wrote:Did you ever meet Jay Marshall? Jay, like many others, bought many books on subjects that didn't directly interest him. Jay even owned a book or two he wasn't secretly the author of...

I don't think somebody who owned a million books is the typical case. Of course, there are other reasons why somebody could have several books on a particular subject, but the most likely and straight forward - you know Occam's razor - assumption is that they had an interest.

Edward Finck wrote:Also, what other books on gambling or magic did Gallaway have in his library?

We don't know.

Edward Finck wrote:You've mentioned repeatedly that he had other gambling books in his collection, how many and what are they? Were they all printed after Erdnase's book?

We don't know. But if we find these books which had his bookplate then we will know. They should be somewhere in some collection.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby mam » August 25th, 2015, 6:56 pm

Is anyone interested in this entire thread as a pdf and/or Kindle compatible file? I decided I want to read it all, from the start, and wanted a better (and offline) format so I did a quick and dirty conversion. It's about 700 pages. Given of course I'm not breaking any rules by doing so, I'd be happy to share it.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Zenner » August 26th, 2015, 5:37 am

mam wrote: Thanks for all the additional information, you had more facts than I. Would you mind sharing the sources? I have the university info already, and some of the employment info based on alumni records and the introductions to his books, but e.g. the passport info I have not.


When I started investigating the possibility of Harry S. Thompson being Erdnase, way back in April, 2013, I did umpteen searches on umpteen web-sites. I found that he worked for Ruxton's and a search on Ruxton's came up with the name "E.C. Andrews". Imagine my delight! And then "E.C. Andrews" turning up in those Bankruptcy Files with a contract dating from August, 1902, clinched it.

I searched for more information on Mr. Andrews for completeness sake. His passport application and draft registration card came up on one of the genealogy sites. I think that it was the LDS Family Search site. Others may have them...

Peter Zenner

P.S. I have never suggested that Emory Cobb Andrews was "Erdnase". All the clues (except Dalrymple!) fit in with the description and background of Harry and I concluded that Harry had pinched Emory's name for his pseudonym. Their connection was only that they both worked for Philip Ruxton and Emory was the new boy. He was probably also sent out for a "bucket of elbow grease" and a "left-handed mop". :-)
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 26th, 2015, 9:18 am

Tom Sawyer wrote:I am not certain what assumptions are being made regarding the date that Emory Cobb Andrews began working for Philip Ruxton. It seems, however, that the assumption is that he worked there as early as 1901 or 1902. Or maybe someone has presented evidence for a definite date, and I have missed it or forgotten it.

Anyway, based on Google Books search results, it appears to me that he began working for Ruxton no earlier than 1905. The items listed in the results were "snippet view" items, and the search results under those circumstances are often easy to misinterpret, but this was supported by three seemingly separate listings.

--Tom Sawyer


Zenner wrote: I concluded that Harry had pinched Emory's name for his pseudonym. Their connection was only that they both worked for Philip Ruxton and Emory was the new boy.


As late as Jan 1904, Andrews was with Cobb Manufacturing Co. of Chicago, and had not yet become associated with Ruxton.

There is no evidence that Thompson knew Andrews as early as 1902. So no reason to think that Andrews's name was available to be "pinched" by Thompson. And as such, no explanation for why Thompson would use "S. W. Erdnase" as a pseudonym.

In 1905, Emory patented a paper clip.

Another book by Andrews.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jack Shalom » August 26th, 2015, 9:48 am

Edward Finck wrote:
Also, what other books on gambling or magic did Gallaway have in his library?

Chris W. wrote:
We don't know.


Chris, sorry if I missed it, but what then is your source for stating that Gallaway had magic and gambling books in his library?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 26th, 2015, 10:46 am

Jack Shalom wrote:
Edward Finck wrote:
Also, what other books on gambling or magic did Gallaway have in his library?

Chris W. wrote:
We don't know.


Chris, sorry if I missed it, but what then is your source for stating that Gallaway had magic and gambling books in his library?



From The Man Who Was Erdnase p. 390:
"Local Chicago amateur magician William C. Griffiths bought a group of magic and gambling books that a second-hand book dealer had been holding for Rufus Steele, who had died in 1955. Several of the gambling books had the bookplate of Edward Gallaway. One was a first edition of The Expert that Griffiths gave to Marshall." This information got in the book from a letter to Martin Gardner from Marshall.

So, we don't know if any of the magic books were from Gallaway, and we don't know how many gambling books there were. I believe I recall seeing somewhere in this thread that there were 3 known books with Gallaway's bookplate -- I'm only aware of two (Erdnase and The History of the Works of the Learned book that has been previously linked).


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