ERDNASE

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Roger M.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » August 21st, 2015, 1:12 am

I probably have 50 or so books in my library that, for various and sundry reasons I've never read, or even opened the cover of.

I'm quite sure I'm not alone in owning books but not having read them.

That Gallaway owned a copy of EATCT, and that it was printed at his workplace ... does not (to me) indicate that he wrote it, that he was particularly interested in the subject matter, or was otherwise associated with the book Beyond simply owning a copy.

He could have picked it up from the pile of recently printed copies on the way home from work because he liked the color green, or perhaps as a gift to a card playing friend, a gift he never gave.

Indeed it would seem to me to be far more likely that Gallaway would have a copy as the man who may have run the printing press responsible for printing the book than it would for any of the other 1000 (or whatever one considers the print run to have been) other eventual owners of the book.

That Gallaway owned a copy remains worthy of interest and further investigation, but beyond that it seems leaps of faith rephrased and repeated.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Tom Sawyer » August 21st, 2015, 4:40 am

To me, one complicating factor is that The Man Who Was Erdnase (on pages 57 and 390) made a semi-big deal about Edward Galloway being interested in gambling and having multiple gambling books in his collection. This is especially so in the third full paragraph of page 57.

It is not especially solid evidence, but it is something.

I am still trying to figure out how the various facts (some rather thinly proven) relate to each other and what they add up to.

However, I do get that probably a lot of people do not attach much importance to the bookplate evidence.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » August 21st, 2015, 6:57 am

Roger M. wrote: ... or perhaps as a gift to a card playing friend, a gift he never gave.


Yeah right, and before he intends to give it as gift he quickly glues in his bookplate. The fact that Gallaway had several other gambling books in his library strongly suggests he was interested in gambling. That is the only sensible conclusion one can draw. Other scenarios are of course theoretically possible but highly unlikely. People generally do not fill up their homes with books they have no interest in, or glue their bookplate into books they intend to give away.
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Zenner
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Zenner » August 21st, 2015, 7:47 am

Leonard Hevia wrote:
Zenner wrote:Everybody's going around in circles again, Leonard. The name that 'Erdnase' was using was 'E.C. Andrews' and that is the name that appears in the McKinney Bankruptcy Files. That would also have been the name on Smith's cheque - would you accept a cheque from somebody calling himself 'Erdnase'?


Going around in circles is not necessarily a bad thing. It can serve as a refresher to keep in mind the history of this story. I take it you have seen Smith's cancelled check and know for certain that Erdnase signed it E.C. Andrews?


Have you been through the McKinney Bankruptcy Files, Leonard?

Erdnase did business with McKinney - the firm was his contact address and Adrian Plate purchased his copy of The Expert from McKinney. O.K.?

Only one Andrews appears as a creditor in those Bankruptcy Files and that is "E.C. Andrews". O.K.?

No other names that have been associated with 'Erdnase' appear as creditors in those files; Gallaway appears only as a former employee.

"E.C. Andrews" contracted with McKinney in August, 1902, to distribute his books, whatever they were. What other name would be on his cheques when McKinney paid him his share of the proceeds? Whether he was paying out or being paid, he was doing business as "E.C. Andrews".

"E.C. Andrews" spelt backwards = "S.W. Erdnace", which sounds very much like "S.W. Erdnase" to me. A coincidence? I don't think so...

As I have said before, I suspect that The Expert was going to be published as being by "E.C. Andrews" until the author realised that there might be repercussions as it was the real name of somebody else.

Double blind? Printer's error? I don't know.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » August 21st, 2015, 8:12 am

Bill Mullins wrote:
lybrary wrote: BTW, are you one of those who think Erdnase is witty?
I'd say more that he was droll, or amusing; but I can see why others would say witty. The pun on p 111, the "needs the money" line, some of his imagery, the excesses of his patter, all indicate to me that he has a dry sense of humor.


Do you see Gallaway displaying any such sense of humor?
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leo Garet » August 21st, 2015, 8:53 am

[quote="Jonathan Townsend Today's Erdnase non-Clue: The illustrator did it in the hotel room with a mirror.[/quote]
Now that does boggle the imagination. Was he by any chance ambidextrous?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » August 21st, 2015, 10:24 am

Zenner wrote:
Only one Andrews appears as a creditor in those Bankruptcy Files and that is "E.C. Andrews". O.K.?

No other names that have been associated with 'Erdnase' appear as creditors in those files; Gallaway appears only as a former employee.

"E.C. Andrews" contracted with McKinney in August, 1902, to distribute his books, whatever they were. What other name would be on his cheques when McKinney paid him his share of the proceeds? Whether he was paying out or being paid, he was doing business as "E.C. Andrews".

"E.C. Andrews" spelt backwards = "S.W. Erdnace", which sounds very much like "S.W. Erdnase" to me. A coincidence? I don't think so...

As I have said before, I suspect that The Expert was going to be published as being by "E.C. Andrews" until the author realised that there might be repercussions as it was the real name of somebody else.

Double blind? Printer's error? I don't know.

Peter Zenner


I think the EC Andrews listing in the bankruptcy files is very interesting. But it's hard to see how it supports one candidate over another. It's also interesting how in one occurence in the bankruptcy files, the one letter that differed from ES Andrews (the C vs the S) was hand-overwritten from a B (?) to a C it seems. Also a strange coincidence and hard to interpret.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby mam » August 21st, 2015, 11:07 am

I've found the following seven occurrences of Andrews in the bankruptcy files, with page numbers in the Lybrary PDF in parentheses:

E. C. Andrews (where handwritten "C" replaces typed "B".) (p. 131)
E. C. Andrews (p. 139)
E. C. Andrews (p. 149)
E. C. Andrews (p. 150)
E. C. Andrews (p. 160)
E. C. Andrews (p. 169)
E. B. Andrews (p. 393)

Did I miss any?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby mam » August 21st, 2015, 11:37 am

E. C. Andrews is Emory Cobb Andrews who was a chemist and worked for (among others) Philip Ruxton and specialized in ink and its application. He must have been highly skilled since he wrote serialized articles later turned into books on the subject:

"Color and its distribution in printing. How to estimate ink" https://archive.org/details/coloritsdistribu00andr

"Color and its application to printing" https://archive.org/details/coloritsapplicat00andriala

We've got another estimator on our hands :)

Also, from his obituary in the Psi Upsilon publication, he was a member of the Omega chapter (i.e. University of Chicago):

Emory Cobb Andrews, Omega ’00

Emory Cobb Andrews, 54 years old, vice president of the International Printing Ink corporation died suddenly in his home at 785 Willow road, Winnetka, Illinois, on June 7, last. Brother Andrews had been in poor health for a long time.

Mr. Andrews was a member of the University, Cliff Dwellers, Vista del Lago, and Indian Hill clubs. He was well known in the printing field and had published many articles on color and its application to printing. He is survived by his widow, Mrs. Helen Andrews, and two sons, Robert and Wayne.


Chris, does not several of your points in support of Gallaway also apply to E. C. Andrews?

I can't find out from the files in what sense Andrews was a creditor of McKinney, e.g. what the latter owed the former. Had it been book plates it would be very interesting, since we know the only "official" books by Andrews were published too late in time to have had their plates dealt with in the bankruptcy.

Edit: He died in June 1932 and was thus born in 1878, making him 24 years old in 1902. Too young.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » August 21st, 2015, 12:01 pm

MAM, EC Andrews makes a far less compelling case. Here are some of the main points:

- We don't know anything about what books and interests he had. With Gallaway we know he had several gambling books and he had a first edition of EATCT, and thus we can assume he had an interest in gambling and card advantage play.

- He did not self publish his books. Gallaway self-published his books, registered the copyright, and remarkably also prints the price on the cover page, which is very telling.

- He doesn't sound like Erdnase to me. Gallaway does not only sound like Erdnase to me, but an expert forensic linguist agrees, and there are many points one could mention which show that similarity. The use of the word subterfuge is one such surprising fact.

- Do we know anything about his physical appearance? Gallaway does fit Smith's description very well.

So yeah, Gallaway makes a lot better case than E C Andrews. However starting from a name in the bankruptcy file is a far more promising strategy then looking anywhere else.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby mam » August 21st, 2015, 12:16 pm

We only know he played a whole lot of instruments (search for "emory cobb andrews") :)

I think the occurrence of "E. C. Andrews" in the bankruptcy files is a false lead. We know who this Andrews was and what he did and it is not in any way unexpected that he had business with McKinney since basically all of them did on Printer's Row. Andrews is such a common name that you would even expect it to be in any bankruptcy files, but because the name reversal theory is so deeply rooted, anyone looking for Erdnase will give it significance.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » August 21st, 2015, 12:51 pm

Zenner wrote:Only one Andrews appears as a creditor in those Bankruptcy Files and that is "E.C. Andrews". O.K.?

I don't know.

Peter Zenner


You are absolutely correct Mr. Zenner. Emory Cobb Andrews appears as a creditor in those bankruptcy files.

I also agree with your second assertion.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 21st, 2015, 4:35 pm

mam wrote:We only know he played a whole lot of instruments (search for "emory cobb andrews")


Note that one of the professors at the Univ of Chicago at this time was Robert Andrews Millikan, whose name has previously been associated with Erdnase.

James De Witt Andrews was at the Univ of Chicago Law School during that era.

Here is the signature of E. C. Andrews.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 21st, 2015, 4:48 pm

Zenner has used Thompson's relationship with E.C. Andrews as justification for using as a pseudonym a reversal of "E. S. Andrews". For Thompson to have done so presupposes that Thompson knew Andrews prior to Feb 1902. The only evidence that they did know each other was that they both worked for Ruxton, but this can only be documented years later.

I don't think that E. C. Andrews worked for Ruxton that early. The Alumni Register for the University of Chicago through July 1902, printed in 1903, says that Andrews worked for G. S. Refining Co. of Chicago.

There is no reason to suppose that Thompson knew Andrews that early, and thus no reason for Thompson to take advantage of his name when creating a pseudonym.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 21st, 2015, 5:35 pm

lybrary wrote:
Bill Mullins wrote:
lybrary wrote: BTW, are you one of those who think Erdnase is witty?
I'd say more that he was droll, or amusing; but I can see why others would say witty. The pun on p 111, the "needs the money" line, some of his imagery, the excesses of his patter, all indicate to me that he has a dry sense of humor.


Do you see Gallaway displaying any such sense of humor?


Not really, but I haven't read Andrews's writings nearly as closely as I have Erdnase's. If you see anything funny, point it out.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » August 21st, 2015, 10:17 pm

Bill Mullins wrote: Here is the signature of E. C. Andrews.


hmmm that C in his signature looks more like an S to me.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 21st, 2015, 11:30 pm

Bob Coyne wrote:
Bill Mullins wrote: Here is the signature of E. C. Andrews.


hmmm that C in his signature looks more like an S to me.


Ancestry.com has his WWI Draft Registration card and the signature on it looks pretty similar.

Someone upthread asked about his physical appearance; a 1901 passport application says he was 5'11-3/4" tall.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Tom Sawyer » August 22nd, 2015, 5:13 am

Concerning the book inscribed by E.C. Andrews, I perceive that the gentleman to whom the book is inscribed (Henry Turner Bailey) is mentioned by Andrews in his preface. I like those kinds of connections very much. Bailey was quite a prominent man, but I suppose details on that are a little outside the basic scope of this thread.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » August 22nd, 2015, 6:49 am

Bob Coyne wrote:
Bill Mullins wrote: Here is the signature of E. C. Andrews.


hmmm that C in his signature looks more like an S to me.


Wow...I agree....is this the first instance of a signature that really does read like the reverse of SW Erdnase?

Also, isn't the reversal of "EC Andrews" pronounced the more or less in the same way as "SW Erdnase"?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Zenner » August 22nd, 2015, 6:57 am

Leonard Hevia wrote:
Zenner wrote:Only one Andrews appears as a creditor in those Bankruptcy Files and that is "E.C. Andrews". O.K.?

I don't know.

Peter Zenner


You are absolutely correct Mr. Zenner. Emory Cobb Andrews appears as a creditor in those bankruptcy files.

I also agree with your second assertion.


You are seeing something that isn't there, Leonard. The name "E.C. Andrews" appears several times in those Files but there is absolutely no evidence that it was Emory Cobb Andrews.

That I do know.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Zenner » August 22nd, 2015, 7:04 am

Carlo Morpurgo wrote:
Bob Coyne wrote:
Bill Mullins wrote: Here is the signature of E. C. Andrews.


hmmm that C in his signature looks more like an S to me.


Wow...I agree....is this the first instance of a signature that really does read like the reverse of SW Erdnase?


Quite weird seeing it there, isn't it?

Also, isn't the reversal of "EC Andrews" pronounced the more or less in the same way as "SW Erdnase"?


I have been pointing that out for well over a month now, Carlo. But those who wish not to see it will continue to turn a blind eye.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » August 22nd, 2015, 7:09 am

Zenner wrote:
Carlo Morpurgo wrote:
Also, isn't the reversal of "EC Andrews" pronounced the more or less in the same way as "SW Erdnase"?


I have been pointing that out for well over a month now, Carlo. But those who wish not to see it will continue to turn a blind eye.

Peter Zenner


Sorry....I missed it... I have been following on and off...more off than on to be honest :)

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » August 22nd, 2015, 9:28 am

I mentioned earlier one cannot compare a signature with regular handwriting, because a signature is more like a drawing rather than regular handwriting. But since Bill Mullins made a comment that he thinks there is no way that Gallaway could have filled out the copyright form of EATCT, based on a comparison of the signature to the handwriting, I wanted to demonstrate that Gallaway could very well be the filler outer.

Image

On the left you see the y from Gallaway's signature. On the right is the y from McKinney from the copyright form. Both are characters at the end of a name. To me they look very similar. With this I am NOT saying that this proves that this is Gallaway's handwriting on the copyright application form. But I do claim that this leaves the possibility wide open that he may have filled it out after all.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 22nd, 2015, 1:04 pm

I think all you've show possible is that someone at McKinney filled out the form, left one letter off McKinney's name, and got Edward Gallaway to come finish it.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » August 22nd, 2015, 1:35 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:I think all you've show possible is that someone at McKinney filled out the form, left one letter off McKinney's name, and got Edward Gallaway to come finish it.

Another one of your outlandish explanations. But coming from somebody who does think Erdnase didn't read any gambling books it is not a surprise. Here is the portion of the text the y comes from.

Image

Doesn't look like somebody added the y. But it is a start that you agree the y's look the same.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » August 22nd, 2015, 2:31 pm

lybrary wrote:I mentioned earlier one cannot compare a signature with regular handwriting, because a signature is more like a drawing rather than regular handwriting. But since Bill Mullins made a comment that he thinks there is no way that Gallaway could have filled out the copyright form of EATCT, based on a comparison of the signature to the handwriting, I wanted to demonstrate that Gallaway could very well be the filler outer.

Image

On the left you see the y from Gallaway's signature. On the right is the y from McKinney from the copyright form. Both are characters at the end of a name. To me they look very similar. With this I am NOT saying that this proves that this is Gallaway's handwriting on the copyright application form. But I do claim that this leaves the possibility wide open that he may have filled it out after all.


Chris, which Gallaway signature are referring to? The one posted earlier in this forum?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » August 22nd, 2015, 2:38 pm

Carlo Morpurgo wrote:Chris, which Gallaway signature are referring to? The one posted earlier in this forum?

No, a different one. I have more than one signature samples of him.
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Roger M.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » August 22nd, 2015, 5:18 pm

The "y's" don't look the same.
One has a rounded top, the other forms a loop at the top.

Folks who loop their up-strokes don't suddenly stop and round them off.
The two share some similarities, but they are (IMO) not the same.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby mam » August 22nd, 2015, 6:01 pm

Zenner wrote:The name "E.C. Andrews" appears several times in those Files but there is absolutely no evidence that it was Emory Cobb Andrews.

But very, very, very, very likely.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby mam » August 22nd, 2015, 6:05 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:Note that one of the professors at the Univ of Chicago at this time was Robert Andrews Millikan, whose name has previously been associated with Erdnase.

I love that the referenced piece on Wikipedia was added on April Fools' Day in 2006.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » August 22nd, 2015, 6:10 pm

Roger M. wrote:The "y's" don't look the same.
One has a rounded top, the other forms a loop at the top.

Folks who loop their up-strokes don't suddenly stop and round them off.
The two share some similarities, but they are (IMO) not the same.

I am not an expert just comparing images. But keep in mind that in the signature the y is preceded by an 'a' and in McKinney by an 'e' - two different characters which may explain why the beginning of the y looks slightly different. Also keep in mind these two samples have a 25 year gap between them. Handwriting can certainly change over that time period. But the end of the y, the upstroke and then the final downstroke look pretty much identical. Again, my purpose was to show that Bill Mullin's assertion that these cannot be the same is silly. There is certainly a possibility that they might come from the same person. We don't know and based on the information available to us we can't make a call either way.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby mam » August 22nd, 2015, 6:25 pm

To what accuracy do we know the date of M. D. Smith's meeting with Erdnase at the hotel?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » August 22nd, 2015, 7:28 pm

mam wrote:To what accuracy do we know the date of M. D. Smith's meeting with Erdnase at the hotel?


According to David Alexander from his January 2000 Genii article:

Marshall Smith told Martin Gardner that the day he met Erdnase was "bitterly cold." Weather records for the November--December 1901, and January 1902 show the only cold snap occurred on December 14th where the temperature dropped from 48 degrees the day before to 8. On Monday, December 15th, the high for the day was -2 degrees, cold even by Chicago standards. The only other day that approached this temperature was late in January 1902.

Hurt McDermott notes in Artifice, Ruse and Subterfuge that Smith remembers keeping his coat on while Erdnase did not.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Tom Sawyer » August 22nd, 2015, 7:46 pm

The viability of a December 1901 date pretty much depends upon whether or not the date allowed Smith enough time to do the drawings. A great many ins and outs of this have been discussed on this thread.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby mam » August 22nd, 2015, 8:09 pm

I guess one could also look up in "Estimating for printers" by Gallaway roughly how much time would be needed to prepare the entire book for print from manuscript and illustrations, i.e. when the drawings would have to be done at the latest for the book to realistically be done in time for the copyright date it has. As said, roughly, but still some sort of indicator.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby mam » August 22nd, 2015, 9:25 pm

(Which has more or less already been done, I realize when reading the Genii article from 2000.)

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » August 23rd, 2015, 1:16 am

mam wrote:I've found the following seven occurrences of Andrews in the bankruptcy files, with page numbers in the Lybrary PDF in parentheses:

E. C. Andrews (where handwritten "C" replaces typed "B".) (p. 131)
E. C. Andrews (p. 139)
E. C. Andrews (p. 149)
E. C. Andrews (p. 150)
E. C. Andrews (p. 160)
E. C. Andrews (p. 169)
E. B. Andrews (p. 393)

Did I miss any?


Yes, this misses what I believe to be the most important occurrence of "Andrews" in the bankruptcy files, from which all the above follow. It doesn't show up in OCR searches, alas. It is on p. 627 of the lybrary PDF. I would characterize it as "E. ? Andrews" where the middle initial appears to be a capital "C" written over a capital "B". This is in the Debtor's Petition of February 10, 1903 and I believe it predates the above references. I believe the above references were transcriptions from this document's handwritten list of creditors. The document may also be seen here:
http://askalexander.org/display/66804/M ... resource/9
The $3 debt is listed as being for "Goods sold and delivered"

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Zenner » August 23rd, 2015, 7:05 am

mam wrote:
Zenner wrote:The name "E.C. Andrews" appears several times in those Files but there is absolutely no evidence that it was Emory Cobb Andrews.

But very, very, very, very likely.


Please explain why you wrote that.

"E.C. Andrews" contracted with McKinney's in August, 1902, to supply and deliver his books. Emory Cobb Andrews was born on January 16, 1878, making him 24 at the time. What book could he have been associated with?

I maintain that "E.C. Andrews" was the pseudonym used by the author of The Expert in his business dealings regarding that book. The availability of the book was announced in the following month's Sphinx. I believe that he took the name from Emory Cobb Andrews and that in no way could the man in the Files be Emory himself.

Unless you can show me what Emory's dealings with McKinney were for, of course.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 23rd, 2015, 10:15 am

Zenner wrote: I maintain that "E.C. Andrews" was the pseudonym used by the author of The Expert in his business dealings regarding that book. . . I believe that he took the name from Emory Cobb Andrews and that in no way could the man in the Files be Emory himself.


How did Thompson know Emory so that he would use his name in late 1901/early 1902?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 23rd, 2015, 10:43 am

Zenner wrote: I maintain that "E.C. Andrews" was the pseudonym used by the author of The Expert in his business dealings regarding that book. . . I believe that he took the name from Emory Cobb Andrews and that in no way could the man in the Files be Emory himself.


How did Thompson know Emory so that he would use his name in late 1901/early 1902?

mam wrote:To what accuracy do we know the date of M. D. Smith's meeting with Erdnase at the hotel?


Alexander pinned down a possible date in 1901 that the meeting could have happened, but it also could have happened in 1900 or 1899.

lybrary wrote:Another one of your outlandish explanations. But coming from somebody who does think Erdnase didn't read any gambling books it is not a surprise.


Of course I think Erdnase read gambling books. What I was addressing was your specific comment that "He writes so himself that he has pretty much read all the past literature both in magic and in gambling." He didn't make any such statement. And the gambling literature of the era, sparse though it is, has material that he didn't address, suggesting that he wasn't familiar with it. He knew about some of the gambling literature, but there's no reason to think he knew about all of it.

It's a fair read of his book that he had read much of the conjuring literature, but he doesn't say that he read the gambling literature. Jason England makes the argument that he did, but it is also just as likely that he had seen the touring "reformed gamblers" who made their living by speaking on the evils of gambling and demonstrating their methods, and knew of them and their methods from their shows. J. P. Quinn lived in Chicago and did his schtick there many times. Kid Royal also performed in Chicago often in the 1890s. Erdnase probably was familiar with both of them -- but he makes no claim that he read "pretty much" all of their writings.

What is outlandish is the idea that by finding one handwritten character from the hundred or so on the copyright application that is similar to one character in some unknown number of signatures is in any way evidence that the two things were written by the same person. One matched character doesn't outweigh 99 clearly different ones.

Obviously my suggestion that Gallaway wrote one letter on the application was ridiculous -- to emphasize how far out was your suggestion that, based on one "matching" letter, the two documents were from the same hand.


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