ERDNASE

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mam
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby mam » August 14th, 2015, 4:51 am

Bill Mullins wrote:M.ark L.ewis is currently posting as "performer" in another thread on the forum. He has a long history here. He has registered and then been banned/expelled under many different names at different times. He usually starts off with genuinely interesting contributions to threads (he has an extensive performing experience), but after a while devolves into trolling behavior and gets banned again. His online "voice" is pretty distinctive, and he can usually be recognized after only a few posts under a new name.

The forum software censors his name, thus the weird punctuation above.

Thanks a lot for clarification.

Bill Mullins wrote:Chris -- in your newsletter, you said you have a couple of photos of Gallaway. On pp 31 and 32 of this book are pictures of one of his classes in estimating. On p 31, on our left, is seated an older man in a bowtie. On p 32, he's standing on the right. Is this Gallaway?

That's actually pages 32 and 33, maybe you could edit your post with the correct page numbers.

Bill Mullins wrote:(and note that p 36 of this book shows a photograph of a fourth book written by Gallaway, which has not yet been mentioned here.}

Another book! Let's find it :) The only trace I can find of it is this item in the R.R. Donnelley & Sons Company Archive at University of Chicago:

Box 1016, Folder 1, "A Course in Printing Estimating, Part III: Presswork," 1923

The only way to access it is on location it seems. So does anyone live in Chicago and wants to have a look at it and report back here? :)

(By the way, I have full pdfs of the two other books except "Estimating for printers".)
Last edited by mam on August 14th, 2015, 5:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

mam
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby mam » August 14th, 2015, 5:06 am

[delete this post]

mam
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby mam » August 14th, 2015, 5:11 am

So for anyone who wants to look for n-grams, here's the script I mentioned:

https://github.com/alimony/ngram-finder

As I said before, I've only done some preliminary runs comparing EATCT to Roterberg, Hoffmann etc. but the results could probably be better if I had better text versions of these, instead of what's extracted from a pdf automatically, since they are all just OCR'd at one point or another. (And most people OCR through something inferior such as Acrobat.)

mam
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby mam » August 14th, 2015, 5:42 am

Another interesting piece of information:

I'm in contact with Bryan, the guy who drew these maps. It seems like he sits on an enormous collection of items tied to gambling in Chicago at the exact time when EATCT was written. All his research is in "over 50 thick volumes" and "none of it digital". A lot of gems are mentioned in our correspondence, such as: "I have a few Old catalogs of Gambling Supply Houses that sold
cheating devises & supplies." and he also compiles a list of the address of "every dive and its owner".

He had not heard of Erdnase, but I had him read EATCT and he liked it, but says that there were so many gamblers in Chicago at that time that all had the skills described in the book, so finding the author among these might be hard or even impossible coming from that angle. (Also, I sent him a list of all relevant names and candidates from here and he did not recognize any of them from his materials.)

In any case, someone really needs to visit this guy and his personal archive. Who knows what might be found there, or by discussing these things with him in more depth.

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lybrary
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » August 14th, 2015, 6:44 am

Bill Mullins wrote:Chris -- in your newsletter, you said you have a couple of photos of Gallaway. On pp 31 and 32 of this book are pictures of one of his classes in estimating. On p 31, on our left, is seated an older man in a bowtie. On p 32, he's standing on the right. Is this Gallaway?

(and note that p 36 of this book shows a photograph of a fourth book written by Gallaway, which has not yet been mentioned here.}


Bill, that is correct. This is Edward Gallaway. And if you go to page 8 of that book you will see a nice head shot of Gallaway. From this portrait you can see that in his mid 50s he was pretty much completely bald. This means in his 30s he was very likely already starting to get bald which could easily explain why with 33 he appeared to be 'about 40'. And from the two classroom photos you can see that he certainly fits the height requirements by Smith.

This means the description of Erdnase by Smith fits Edward Gallaway.

The book "A Course in Printing Estimating" seems to be a precursor of his "Estimating for Printers" book. I have not found it anywhere, but it is mentioned in the copyright catalog 1923 under R. R. Donnelley. So maybe a copy does exist in the Library of Congress.
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John Adams
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby John Adams » August 14th, 2015, 6:52 am

Firstly, I'm self aware enough to know that what I'm about to post may be considered rather simplistic, but I really do think it's important and it is something I haven't really seen people pick up on.

For those candidates who have names that are anagrams of SW Erdnase: Why on earth would they choose Erdnase as a pen name?

To me it seems that only someone called ES Andrews would use Erdnase as a pseudonym because they are not approaching it as an anagram, but simply as a reversal.

Consider if your real name is not ES Andrews, say it is WE Sanders, and you were fiddling around with anagrams to create a pen name then one that is available to you would be the respectable and realistic sounding ES Andrews. So why in that case would you plump for the weird and obviously fake name of SW Erdnase?

Anyway, as I say, simplistic

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Joe Pecore » August 14th, 2015, 7:30 am

mam wrote:So for anyone who wants to look for n-grams, here's the script I mentioned:
https://github.com/alimony/ngram-finder
...


Here is a Windows program I just stumbled upon as another tool for those that want to play with n-grams: http://www.kwicfinder.com/kfNgram/kfNgramHelp.html
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Bob Coyne
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » August 14th, 2015, 8:21 am

John Adams wrote:
Consider if your real name is not ES Andrews, say it is WE Sanders, and you were fiddling around with anagrams to create a pen name then one that is available to you would be the respectable and realistic sounding ES Andrews. So why in that case would you plump for the weird and obviously fake name of SW Erdnase?

Anyway, as I say, simplistic


If the name on the book was ES Andrews, then there would be no clue that the name was an anagram since it sounds so normal. So by using something fake-sounding like SW Erdnase he frames it as a puzzle. And the very clever solution (anagram of WE Sanders plus erdnase=earthnose=mining-engineer) is hidden by obvious (false) solution ES Andrews which functions as a clever bit of misdirection.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 14th, 2015, 9:14 am

Bob Coyne wrote:
John Adams wrote:...simplistic


If the name on the book was ES Andrews, then there would be no clue that the name was...


Path. Garden. look at em go.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Joe Pecore » August 14th, 2015, 9:42 am

Jonathan Townsend wrote:Project: using suspect and known ML writings to support the phrase matching hypothesis for claims of authorship.

Obvious by inspection?

Chris, how do you feel about using the ML/P posts as a test case? Derrick, Joe, Bill, mam, Bob - what do you think?


I entered many sample posts into JGAAP from the following people:
Jonathan Townsend: search.php?author_id=37&sr=posts
Bill Mullins: search.php?author_id=113&sr=posts
ML: search.php?author_id=4551&sr=posts

I entered "performer" posts as the unknown author: search.php?author_id=9986&sr=posts


I ran a few analysis and ML came up as top prospect for each.



Would be cool to try on some magic books in which we know were "ghosted" by someone else (if someone has the time).
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Brad Henderson » August 14th, 2015, 9:46 am

I know many authors who do not have copies of their own books. I am a self centered hoarder, so obviously I have a copy. I think having a first edition can be equally explained by KNOWING the author perhaps more so than having been the author.

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lybrary
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » August 14th, 2015, 9:53 am

Brad Henderson wrote:I know many authors who do not have copies of their own books. I am a self centered hoarder, so obviously I have a copy. I think having a first edition can be equally explained by KNOWING the author perhaps more so than having been the author.


But if the owner of the book sounds just like the author of the book in question then I think it is a pretty straight forward conclusion that he IS the author.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 14th, 2015, 10:04 am

Joe Pecore wrote:...
I entered many sample posts into JGAAP from the following people:
...

Would be cool to try on some magic books in which we know were "ghosted" by someone else (if someone has the time).


Thanks - was going to suggest Paine as author of our Declaration of Independence as a good test but if JGAAP is giving good match data... let's see what it makes of magic texts. :)
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 14th, 2015, 10:11 am

lybrary wrote:
Brad Henderson wrote:I know many authors who do not have copies of their own books. I am a self centered hoarder, so obviously I have a copy. I think having a first edition can be equally explained by KNOWING the author perhaps more so than having been the author.


But if the owner of the book sounds just like the author of the book in question then I think it is a pretty straight forward conclusion that he IS the author.


That would make more sense if he had autographed copies - annotated copies (his handwriting is known?) - match between his writing and gaming house receipts...One copy of a book -> author... IMHO maybe ten or a box or local mention of someone giving away the thing - and either way it would seem he did not do because he "needs the money" - sophistry
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » August 14th, 2015, 11:23 am

Here is a more sophisticated list of matches between AOM and EATCT. This list starts from the logest matches and it goes down to 4-word matches, consecutively removing words from previously found comon sequences.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B3Wpu ... UZZb2xHbW8

PS: My brother wrote a small program in C++ (following my directions) which seems to be much better than what Mathematica has to offer. All we need is two text files, and a little polishing at the end with MS WORD.

added: there is still a minor glitch in the program that needs to be fixed - I will update the list soon.
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Bill Mullins
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 14th, 2015, 11:53 am

lybrary wrote:
Brad Henderson wrote:I know many authors who do not have copies of their own books. I am a self centered hoarder, so obviously I have a copy. I think having a first edition can be equally explained by KNOWING the author perhaps more so than having been the author.


But if the owner of the book sounds just like the author of the book in question then I think it is a pretty straight forward conclusion that he IS the author.


Except for some of us, the two authors don't sound that much alike. (I know your expert may feel otherwise, but conclusions without justification don't convince much. While my analysis is that of a layperson, I have at least shown my work.)

lybrary wrote: Edward Gallaway [founded] the school of print estimating,


Maybe not -- the American School of Printing had a class on the subject in 1917.


lybrary wrote: {Gallaway wrote] the first authoritative and comprehensive textbook on print estimating.


Except for Basford's.

Loring Lane also wrote a book on the subject.

The United Typothetae of America (a guild for printers) published an estimating guide, with regular updates.

Even E. C. Andrews, who is a part of Peter Zenner's case for Thompson, wrote a book on a small subset of printing estimation.

All of these preceded Gallaway's books.

lybrary wrote:As I have already earlier eluded to "Estimating for Printers" looks like it is equally ground breaking in print estimating as EATCT was for card artifice.


When Erdnase published his book, it was revolutionary - nothing like it had ever been written. When Gallaway wrote his book, his work was much more derivative. Inland Printer and other professional journals had published many articles on estimation over the previous 20 years. Books on the business of printing had chapters on estimating. Professional organizations for printers had workshops and classes on the subject, and other printers had already published full books and guides on how to estimate.

Gallaway may have written an excellent book on the subject (I'm not competent to judge), but it was by no means as ground breaking as Erdnase.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Brad Jeffers » August 14th, 2015, 1:05 pm

Brad Henderson wrote: I think having a first edition can be equally explained by KNOWING the author, perhaps more so than having been the author.


I think having a first edition can be equally explained by HAVING PURCHASED a copy, perhaps more so than either having known the author, or having been the author.
:geek:

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 14th, 2015, 1:31 pm

Does Estimating for Printers make mention of an example book project where ...(the story of how well the EACT book did) ?
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » August 14th, 2015, 2:58 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:Does Estimating for Printers make mention of an example book project where ...(the story of how well the EACT book did) ?

No. The kind of estimating that is dealt with in this book is about cost - how expensive it is to print a certain publication and what the printer needs to charge the customer. It has nothing to do with marketing or how well a book may do.
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John Bodine
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby John Bodine » August 14th, 2015, 3:34 pm

While talking with the wonderfully intelligent BJ Bueno, he mentioned he was using IBM's Watson Personality Test for some projects. I immediately asked him to drop in Erdnase to see what Watson thinks.

The resulting Personality it came up with with 9070 words:
You are screwed, skeptical and tranquil.

You are imaginative: you have a wild imagination. You are philosophical: you are open to and intrigued by new ideas and love to explore them. And you are calm under pressure: you handle unexpected events calmly and effectively.

You are motivated to seek out experiences that provide a strong feeling of prestige.

You are relatively unconcerned with both tradition and taking pleasure in life. You care more about making your own path than following what others have done. And you prefer activities with a purpose greater than just personal enjoyment.


Interestingly enough, when I put in the introduction and some of the text (only 563 words) from the Sanders book on Mine Timbering the personality results were almost identical.

The system also puts out data scores behind the above summary and a visualization of the personality data.

I don't have the text file for Gallaway but perhaps someone here would like to explore using Watson as a tool to identify similar writing styles?

https://watson-pi-demo.mybluemix.net

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 14th, 2015, 4:14 pm

Watson on the first 2300 words of Gallaway's book (introduction on p 3 through end of 1st paragraph on p 8, less tables on p 5, signature, headings, captions, etc.)

You are inner-directed, skeptical and can be perceived as insensitive.

You are imaginative: you have a wild imagination. You are philosophical: you are open to and intrigued by new ideas and love to explore them. And you are independent: you have a strong desire to have time to yourself.

You are motivated to seek out experiences that provide a strong feeling of efficiency.

You are relatively unconcerned with taking pleasure in life: you prefer activities with a purpose greater than just personal enjoyment. You consider achieving success to guide a large part of what you do: you seek out opportunities to improve yourself and demonstrate that you are a capable person.


Watson is the cumulation of centuries of cold reading.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 14th, 2015, 5:27 pm

I highly doubt that the first printing of an esoteric book like Expert at the Card Table, particularly since it was self-published, would have had a print run of 10,000 copies.

The Art of Magic was written entirely by John Northern Hilliard, not T. Nelson Downs. Since Hilliard was a newspaper man, Bill should be able to unearth ample samples of his writing to be compared with that of Erdnase.

However, The Art of Magic was published in 1909, seven years after the Expert at the Card Table. It is, as has been noted, certainly more likely that Hilliard was influenced by Erdnase rather than that he was Erdnase.

Hilliard's only other major piece of magical writing is Greater Magic. If you own my edition, and you look in the back, you'll find that I delineated which parts of Greater Magic were written by Hilliard and which by Hugard. So, you can sample the parts of Greater Magic which were written by Hilliard against Expert at the Card Table.

I don't think you'll find anything convincing. To the best of my recollection, Hilliard hardly mentions Erdnase in Greater Magic--at the time he was writer Greater Magic (late 1920s), Expert at the Card Table was unknown to most magicians. Hilliard would have considered it "old stuff." He was looking for new and fresh ideas for Greater Magic. Somehow, I think that if Hilliard had written Expert at the Card Table, he would have snuck some material from Expert into the book.
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lybrary
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » August 14th, 2015, 5:48 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:Except for some of us, the two authors don't sound that much alike. (I know your expert may feel otherwise, but conclusions without justification don't convince much. While my analysis is that of a layperson, I have at least shown my work.)


Certainly, you are entitled to your own opinion, but there is momentum gathering around the linguistic match of Gallaway. It is not just me. Roger M. wrote that he sounds "very similar". The only forensic linguistics expert we have heard on this subject said "strong possibility", even Richard Hatch, if I interpret his comments correctly, does hear Erdnase at least in parts of the introduction of "Estimating for Printers". From my newsletter replies I have received dozens of emails who agree with my conclusions. Yes, not everybody does agree, but a group is forming which does support Gallaway as perhaps the strongest candidate proposed today.

Bill Mullins wrote:
lybrary wrote: Edward Gallaway [founded] the school of print estimating,


Maybe not -- the American School of Printing had a class on the subject in 1917.


Yes he did. I am quoting from the Inland Printer:

"Edward Gallaway, author of “A Course in Printing Estimating for the Training Department of the Lakeside Press," former instructor in estimating for R. R. Donnelley & Sons Co., and the United Typothetae of America, will establish within the loop district of Chicago, about September 25, 1924, The Chicago School of Applied Estimating for Printers."

Gallaway founded that school. He was also the principal and main instructor of that school. It was his school which he later passed on to his assistant. Gallaway's lecturing on print estimating started around 1915 with the Lakeside Press (R. R. Donnelley). He also taught an evening school at Chicago Typothetae of America (that is the one you are referring to above). He was the guy who made all that happen.

Bill Mullins wrote:
lybrary wrote: {Gallaway wrote] the first authoritative and comprehensive textbook on print estimating.


The United Typothetae of America (a guild for printers) published an estimating guide, with regular updates.


Gallaway was the instructor for Estimating at that organization. He very likely collected that guide for this organization. In the ad they give 608 S. Dearborn Street as their address. That is the same address where Gallaway later sets up his School for Print Estimating.

Bill Mullins wrote:All of these preceded Gallaway's books.


Great, what an insight. There were books published on magic and gambling before EATCT. That says nothing about their quality, their content. How much do you know about print estimating? I am reading right now the current textbook on print estimating by Philip K. Ruggles. I have also read a number of articles on it and consulted with printers and print historians. They all agree that Estimating for Printers is incredibly detailed and covers more than other books do. The distinction Gallaway introduced for prices for large cities, intermediate-size cities, and small towns may very well be novel to him (I am still investigating this.) That is groundbreaking. It is also extremely practical. One commented that even today it would be of benefit to some in the industry, even though technology has vastly transformed printing.

Gallaway writes in his "How To Price Job Printing": "In conclusion, the production of this book has been a monumental task. The prices contained herein represent the work involved in the making of more than 4700 separate estimates. These sheets are in bound form in the office of the compiler for ready reference. If the user of this book should be in doubt about any price a check will be made against the detailed estimate sheet."

Think about how groundbreaking it is to compile a guide from 4700 separate estimates!

But you completely misunderstood my point. I am not arguing that the books are exact mirror images in their groundbreaking-ness. My point is that the authors who wrote them share similar approaches, very detailed and exhaustive, very practical advice and actionable information.

Compare that to say E. S. Andrews. Do we know anything like that about him? Do we know he had contact with McKinney? Owned a first edition? Wrote another book? Published it the same way? Wrote it with a similar mind set and point of view? Consider that Gallaway was an educator for at least the last 15 years of his life. Lectured, worked in the RR Donnelley training department, wrote course material, books, and eventually founded a stand alone school. Now consider Erdnase. He writes the book in part to avoid others being cheated at the card table, but he also writes it as a highly practical and instructional text book (exactly the same thing Estimating for Printers is). Erdnase and Gallaway not only sound alike they are both educators. They both want to teach us what they learned, and do that in a very practical, authoritative, and detailed way. What are the odds that these are not one and the same?
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » August 14th, 2015, 7:27 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:
The Art of Magic was written entirely by John Northern Hilliard, not T. Nelson Downs. Since Hilliard was a newspaper man, Bill should be able to unearth ample samples of his writing to be compared with that of Erdnase.

However, The Art of Magic was published in 1909, seven years after the Expert at the Card Table. It is, as has been noted, certainly more likely that Hilliard was influenced by Erdnase rather than that he was Erdnase.

Hilliard's only other major piece of magical writing is Greater Magic. If you own my edition, and you look in the back, you'll find that I delineated which parts of Greater Magic were written by Hilliard and which by Hugard. So, you can sample the parts of Greater Magic which were written by Hilliard against Expert at the Card Table.

I don't think you'll find anything convincing. To the best of my recollection, Hilliard hardly mentions Erdnase in Greater Magic--at the time he was writer Greater Magic (late 1920s), Expert at the Card Table was unknown to most magicians. Hilliard would have considered it "old stuff." He was looking for new and fresh ideas for Greater Magic. Somehow, I think that if Hilliard had written Expert at the Card Table, he would have snuck some material from Expert into the book.


Richard thank you for the insights.... Here's a question. If Hilliard was just influenced, why not mention and quote Erdnase in AOM rather than copying verbatim entire passages? I guess there were no such concerns about plagarism back in those days?
Secondly, I would be very happy to run the same program and analyze those parts of Greater Magic, against EATCT to see if more such material was "snuck in". Is there any way I can buy a pdf version of it?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Tom Sawyer » August 15th, 2015, 1:44 am

Carlo, this is not designed to answer the questions you posed in your most recent post. However, first, thanks for posting those various phrase-lists.

Second, some people may not realize that The Art of Magic was one of the first magic books to make reference to The Expert at the Card Table. It does so at least three times (pages 76, 133, and 206), and in one case calls it an "excellent treatise." (The Art of Magic, on Google Books, digitized by Google, from a copy at the New York Public Library. That's a 1921 version, but I tend to assume that the 1909 version has basically the same text.)

I'm not positive, but I think The Art of Magic might even be the first book (not magazine) to mention The Expert at the Card Table.

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At least for the time being, I have taken down my S.W. Erdnase blog.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » August 15th, 2015, 6:57 am

Tom Sawyer wrote:Carlo, this is not designed to answer the questions you posed in your most recent post. However, first, thanks for posting those various phrase-lists.

Second, some people may not realize that The Art of Magic was one of the first magic books to make reference to The Expert at the Card Table. It does so at least three times (pages 76, 133, and 206), and in one case calls it an "excellent treatise." (The Art of Magic, on Google Books, digitized by Google, from a copy at the New York Public Library. That's a 1921 version, but I tend to assume that the 1909 version has basically the same text.)

I'm not positive, but I think The Art of Magic might even be the first book (not magazine) to mention The Expert at the Card Table.

--Tom Sawyer


Ah.. I did not catch that.... Thanks. Still, it does not disprove that Hilliard had any role in the writing of EATCT, especially if he was one of the first people to mention the book...., But I am not putting forward theories here, I just got intrigued about this sequence finding process ;)

Regarding the "unanswerable questions I posed" I have no clue about what you mean.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Joe Pecore » August 15th, 2015, 7:15 am

Carlo Morpurgo wrote:
Tom Sawyer wrote:Carlo, this is not designed to answer the questions you posed in your most recent post. ... --Tom Sawyer

... Regarding the "unanswerable questions I posed" I have no clue about what you mean.


I'm guessing your post which inquired: "If Hilliard was just influenced, why not mention and quote Erdnase in AOM rather than copying verbatim entire passages? I guess there were no such concerns about plagarism back in those days?"
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » August 15th, 2015, 7:29 am

Joe Pecore wrote:
Carlo Morpurgo wrote:
Tom Sawyer wrote:Carlo, this is not designed to answer the questions you posed in your most recent post. ... --Tom Sawyer

... Regarding the "unanswerable questions I posed" I have no clue about what you mean.


I'm guessing your post which inquired: "If Hilliard was just influenced, why not mention and quote Erdnase in AOM rather than copying verbatim entire passages? I guess there were no such concerns about plagarism back in those days?"


Ok thanks. I thought it was a reasonable comment, and I apologize if I stepped over the line. I guess I am used to the idea that one quotes a reference when directly reproducing material from that reference in his/her own book or paper. Even just reproducing an idea, not necessarily identical words. Now I know that Hilliard quoted Erdnase, although not in reference to the passages that he reproduced in AOM.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » August 15th, 2015, 7:38 am

Anybody who wants to make the Hilliard case should take a look at his handwriting from his notebooks. Does it match the handwriting on the EATCT copyright form?
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » August 15th, 2015, 10:44 am

Just a clarification related to my earlier comment (as noted by Chris) that I indeed do think the intro in the printing book has overtones of sounding like Erdnase.

BUT, I also said it might only be relative if one were to examine multiple other books of the same vintage for a similar "sassy" writing style. There is certainly a similarity with "A Grand Expose" and "How Gamblers Win", both of which have a similar tone to both Erdnase and Gallaway. It seems it might be a common style of the day.

I have also noted more than once that I thought Chris was offering up many unsupported "opinions" more than he was sharing evidence or process as to how he arrived at those opinions. A statement made in the absence of any discussion of the process or evidence to support it is simply another mans opinion on any given topic.

I do think Gallaway makes an interesting addition to the candidate list, but I see nothing at all to date that would remotely imply that Gallaway was Erdnase.

I don't think I'm an example of anybody participating in a movement that sees Gallaway as the prime candidate. Quite the opposite, as I would consider both Andrews and Sanders still #1 and #2 in no particular order.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » August 15th, 2015, 11:56 am

lybrary wrote:Anybody who wants to make the Hilliard case should take a look at his handwriting from his notebooks. Does it match the handwriting on the EATCT copyright form?

Hilliard's small neat handwriting clearly does not match the handwriting on the copyright form, but what does that tell us? Only that Hilliard did not fill out the form. Gallaway's handwriting also does not match the form, so do we rule him out as the author on that basis? He was at McKinney's at the time the book was published there. Why would he not fill out the form himself?

I'd also like to echo Roger's sentiments as well expressed in the immediately preceding post: While I find one sentence in Gallaway's introduction to his 1927 book has a rhythm and tone similar to that of some of Erdnase's "Professional Secrets" section, I remain far from convinced that he was the author of the book. But definitely a "person of interest" in its production.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » August 15th, 2015, 12:09 pm

Roger M. wrote:I have also noted more than once that I thought Chris was offering up many unsupported "opinions" more than he was sharing evidence or process as to how he arrived at those opinions.


- had contact with McKinney to make the book order (supported by bankruptcy files)
- owned first edition of EATCT (supported by his bookplate found in a copy)
- linguistic match (supported by expert opinion; no other candidate can offer an expert opinion to this date)
- 'W' in the surname (obvious; and the W is stressed in Gallaway making it more likely for Smith to remember it after 45 years than in Andrews)
- age/height match of Smith recollections (supported by photos)
- groundbreaking, detailed, practical, actionable advice of "Estimating for Printers" mirroring EATCT (supported by other books on that subject; and expert opinion)
- leading educator and innovator in his field (supported by industry literature; school founding; books; course notes)
- published his book exactly the way EATCT was published (supported by copyright records and title page)
- plausible theory for S.W. Erdnase (supported by nickname use today, use of word in literature before 1901, knowledge of German by Gallaway, and general use of German in that region at that time)

All of that is supported by more evidence than is available for any other candidate. I know that some prefer to disagree with expert opinion, but at least it is expert opinion that has been gathered and documented. What expert opinion can you offer for your preferred candidates?
Last edited by lybrary on August 15th, 2015, 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 15th, 2015, 12:11 pm

lybrary wrote:Anybody who wants to make the Hilliard case should take a look at his handwriting from his notebooks. Does it match the handwriting on the EATCT copyright form?


It is no worse a match than Gallaway's.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » August 15th, 2015, 12:14 pm

Richard Hatch wrote:
lybrary wrote:Anybody who wants to make the Hilliard case should take a look at his handwriting from his notebooks. Does it match the handwriting on the EATCT copyright form?

Hilliard's small neat handwriting clearly does not match the handwriting on the copyright form, but what does that tell us? Only that Hilliard did not fill out the form. Gallaway's handwriting also does not match the form, so do we rule him out as the author on that basis? He was at McKinney's at the time the book was published there. Why would he not fill out the form himself?


Did I say we should rule him out if his handwriting does not match? No. I would use the handwriting as strong evidence in favor if it matches, but not as something to rule him out if it does not match, because we do not know if he filled it out or not.

We do not have a handwriting sample of Gallaway so we can't make that determination for him. His signature is not enough to compare handwriting according to two handwriting specialists I asked.

Why would Gallaway not fill it out? Because he was already a big shot at McKinney. He probably had people working for him who would do such things for him. But I am divided as to what is more likely, him filling it out or somebody else filling it out.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » August 15th, 2015, 12:19 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:It is no worse a match than Gallaway's.


And how do you know? A signature is not enough to compare handwriting according to handwriting analysts. You seem to be the expert on everything, handwriting, linguistics, print estimating, use of German back then, yet all you offer is your own opinion. I am backing up my opinion with expert opinion. At least I am making an effort to be objective by bringing in experts.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Leonard Hevia » August 15th, 2015, 4:01 pm

Does anyone have a copy of that August 16, 2000 Wall Street Journal article: "Fresh Clues Could Reveal Magic Trick Writer Who Pulled A Disappearing Act A Century Ago." I would love to read that.

Chris--have you checked the digital files of The Sphinx or any other magic periodicals of that time for any mention of Gallaway? If he was a magician to any extent, that would help substantiate your case for him. As a leader in the printing industry, it would appear that Gallaway might have made a dent in magic circles--if he was interested in magic.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » August 15th, 2015, 4:15 pm

Leonard Hevia wrote:Chris--have you checked the digital files of The Sphinx or any other magic periodicals of that time for any mention of Gallaway? If he was a magician to any extent, that would help substantiate your case for him. As a leader in the printing industry, it would appear that Gallaway might have made a dent in magic circles--if he was interested in magic.


I did check in the digital magic literature available to me and could not find a mention of Gallaway. The only link to gambling we know is that Jay Marshall noted that there were other gambling books with the Edward Gallaway bookplate. We do not know which ones, but we do know there were other gambling books. I am hopeful that some of these books will at some point emerge. I am also pursuing two other avenues that may tell us more about the books Gallaway owned.

From EATCT we know that Erdnase was a book guy. He writes so himself that he has pretty much read all the past literature both in magic and in gambling. Gallaway was also a book guy. I therefore think it is definitely possible that he learned magic tricks from books alone and did not associate with the organized magic community. I would think it likely that he visited Roterberg's shop and bought magic books there. But we don't have any evidence pro or con, just laying out a possible scenario.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Larry Horowitz » August 15th, 2015, 4:49 pm

I cannot imagine an author wishing to remain hidden, having an underling fill out the copyright form.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 15th, 2015, 5:02 pm

Larry Horowitz wrote:I cannot imagine an author wishing to remain hidden, having an underling fill out the copyright form.


When Stephen King was writing books under the pseudonym Richard Bachman, he copyrighted them under the name of his agent Kirby McCauley.

When Joe Klein wrote Primary Colors under the name Anonymous, it was copyrighted by "Machiavelliana, Inc." Incorporation papers for the company listed Klein as CEO and Registered Agent.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » August 15th, 2015, 5:28 pm

lybrary wrote:
Bill Mullins wrote:It is no worse a match than Gallaway's.


And how do you know? A signature is not enough to compare handwriting according to handwriting analysts.


If you are going to assert you know how tall Gallaway was from this:

Image

then I'm comfortable saying that the person who wrote this:

Image

was not the person who wrote this:

Image

We all are claiming expertise in fields we aren't expert it.


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