ERDNASE

Discuss general aspects of Genii.
Marty Demarest
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Marty Demarest » July 29th, 2015, 10:22 pm

Also from Gardner's notes of his initial interview with M.D. Smith:

"He [Erdnase] had a small board, like a chessboard, with green baize on it, and Smith thinks he remembers a small ridge about half-inch high around edges. Placed it on table. Did the card tricks on it, and used it as base for posing the pictures. Board about 2 feet square."

Q: What do you call a self-professed card cheating expert who demonstrates his skill by whipping out a close-up mat and performing card tricks?

A: A magician.

Roger M.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » July 29th, 2015, 10:43 pm

Marty Demarest wrote:According to Martin Gardner's notes from his first meeting with Smith: "He remembers Andrews showing him some card tricks, and complaining that the cold made his fingers stiff."


You are absolutely correct Marty, I shouldn't post from my desk at work, with my Gardner/Smith book sitting at home!

However i might suggest that, for an artist knowing nothing about card cheats or the sleights they used in the practice of their craft, the demonstration of a second deal, or a bottom deal ... might indeed be called a "card trick" by somebody completely uninitiated, even though it was a gambling sleight being demonstrated by a card cheat.

Or perhaps not ... but it is a valid consideration.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » July 29th, 2015, 11:15 pm

Marty Demarest wrote:I can't help myself, I have to pick a nit: ;)

Bill Mullins wrote:4. A magician would have known how to spell "Charlier pass".


c.f. "The Acrobatic Jacks": "(Open pack with left thumb bookwise, ready for the "Charlier Shift"..."

Bill Mullins wrote:6. The only author he mentions by name (Hoyle) wrote of card games and not conjuring.


c.f. Methods for Determining a Card Thought Of. D.: "This cunning and absolutely unfathomable stratagem must have been devised by an individual of truly Machiavelian subtlety."

Yes, technically "Machiavelian" is a term (and misspelled), not a name. But still. He wrote.

EDIT: And as Dick Hatch pointed out to me in an email, the author also mentions the name S. W. Erdnase, who wrote about card games and conjuring...


Got me! Zenner will be pleased to know that I'm no longer infallible.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » July 29th, 2015, 11:46 pm

Marty Demarest wrote:Also from Gardner's notes of his initial interview with M.D. Smith:

"He [Erdnase] had a small board, like a chessboard, with green baize on it, and Smith thinks he remembers a small ridge about half-inch high around edges. Placed it on table. Did the card tricks on it, and used it as base for posing the pictures. Board about 2 feet square."

Q: What do you call a self-professed card cheating expert who demonstrates his skill by whipping out a close-up mat and performing card tricks?

A: A magician.


As pointed out in TMWWE, the board can apparently be seen in several of the drawings, particularly Fig. 16. That same figure argues against the "traced from photos" theory some champion, since the front edge of the board runs parallel to the front edge of the deck, but the side edge does not, and it should, if both the board and the deck are rectangular, as one would expect.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » July 29th, 2015, 11:52 pm

"Estimating for Printers" is available to view free of charge here http://pds.lib.harvard.edu/pds/view/51623703

I would be interested to hear your opinion about Gallaway sounding like Erdnase or not.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » July 30th, 2015, 12:18 am

Here's a thought regarding the transformation (i.e., color change) usually attributed to Houdini:

Erdnase describes 8 transformations, 6 using two hands and 2 using just one hand. He only credits himself with two of them, the sixth two handed method ("Now we introduce another "homemade" article and consequently unknown up to the present. We think it very pretty.") and the second one handed transformation ("The following process is another of our innovations..."). Surely if he had (as Peter Zenner seems to want us to believe) invented the one attributed by others to Houdini and then shown it to Houdini, he would not have been shy about claiming it as his own in his own book, even though it had been published shortly before him by Selbit (with credit to Houdini). Whether Houdini invented it or possibly showed it to Erdnase is another question, but I think we can be fairly sure that Erdnase did not invent it, since he did not claim to have done so.

While on this topic of the author's original creations, he does not take any credit or even apparent pride in his description of "The Card and Handkerchief", though Peter Zenner would have us believe he also invented it (that claim apparently based on an earlier published reference to the trick having made the rounds in Chicago). In fact, I cannot find the author claiming any originality in the trick section, other than the formula he gives for determining the locations of cards in a pre-arranged deck ("...we believe the rules here given for determining the card at any number given, and the number of any card called for, are the first ever formulated for a fifty-two card deck.")

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » July 30th, 2015, 12:30 am

Chris, I see what you mean by hearing Erdnase in the intro, it certainly seems more than just a similar style. Indeed it would be at the least a very similar style.

I see additional similarity in the somewhat frequent use of scare quotes, something Erdnase definitely used often.

It's kind of a silly aside, but I noted how much the illustrations of blank pages look identical to playing cards :)

Galloway certainly appears to know his printing business. That he began at 14 becomes apparent. His printing knowledge seems profound (at least to me, who knows very little about printing).

His depth of knowledge as relates to the craft of printing, and the ability to put that printing knowledge into book form does make me wonder still how he would ever have the time to live the backstory, and then write EATCT?

I note too that once you depart from his short introduction and enter into the body of the book, there is a shift towards normal technical writing, although with occasional forays back into a similar writing style as Erdnase demonstrated.

I suspect one would have to look at a cross section of technical books of the day in order to determine if this type of rather sassy and descriptive writing was commonplace enough to render this just a coincidence.

All things said, I don't believe it's enough to promote Gallaway to Erdnase and declare "search over" ... however it does (IMO) raise Gallaway higher as a candidate.
It still seems that E.S.A., M.F.A., and W.E.S. are candidates with more raw data supporting them, and it would be good to see more evidence supporting Gallaway discovered and brought forward.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Marty Demarest » July 30th, 2015, 12:34 am

Roger M. wrote:However i might suggest that, for an artist knowing nothing about card cheats or the sleights they used in the practice of their craft, the demonstration of a second deal, or a bottom deal ... might indeed be called a "card trick" by somebody completely uninitiated, even though it was a gambling sleight being demonstrated by a card cheat.


You'd think Smith would have learned better, after doing all those drawings.

In all seriousness, though, you are quite right, Roger, and you poke your finger in the softest part of Gardner's notes: There's a lot of ambiguity as to what some of Smith's answers mean. What is the relationship with Dalrymple? Which name is being discussed? What is a trick? etc.

I think it's up to researchers to examine all the possibilities, and not become wedded to one interpretation. Because we honestly don't know what Smith exactly meant about many things.

Richard Hatch wrote:In fact, I cannot find the author claiming any originality in the trick section, other than the formula he gives for determining the locations of cards in a pre-arranged deck ("...we believe the rules here given for determining the card at any number given, and the number of any card called for, are the first ever formulated for a fifty-two card deck.")


Erdnase also takes credit for his patter and presentations, especially "The Exclusive Coterie" and "The Divining Rod." He also uses his original system of blind overhand shuffles in "A Mind-Reading Trick." (Though he doesn't point out the system's originality in that trick's explanation, he does extensively in the first part of the book.)

Interestingly, those blind overhand shuffles are a technical link between the two sections of the book. It shows Erdnase employing some of his original techniques for card cheating to accomplish a magic effect.

EDITS: Cannot type.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » July 30th, 2015, 12:37 am

For those wanting to take a look at some of the interesting raw "evidence" from the McKinney bankruptcy files without reading through hundreds of pages in search of interesting stuff (it's all interesting to some of us!), here's a link to the page with the one handwritten mention of "E. ? Andrews", with the middle initial appearing to be a B overwritten by a C to my eye. The name is 10th from the bottom and shows that a debit of $3 was contracted by McKinney in Chicago for "Goods sold and delivered" in August 1902:
http://askalexander.org/display/66804/M ... resource/9

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » July 30th, 2015, 12:47 am

Roger, a couple of additional items to consider:

- Keep in mind that "Estimating for Printers" was written 25 years after EATCT and is dealing with a completely different subject matter. When one factors this in, the similarity becomes even more striking and surprising.

- The fact that Gallaway founded the school of print estimators and wrote the first thorough and authoritative book on print estimating is quite a parallel to what he did with EATCT. I think this speaks to him exhibiting exceptional abilities. While excellence in one field does not necessarily translate to another field, I think one can say that Gallaway was the type of fellow who one could imagine doing pioneering work in a field outside of the print world. I am right now researching another aspect of his life that looks quite remarkable, too. Can't say much more right now but I think it will further underscore the exceptional person he must have been.

- Regarding your question if he had enough time to acquire the skills, I did some research. In 1880 workers in industry typically worked 10 hours a day for 6 days a week, and only had a handful of holidays. However, consider that Gallaway was not married until 1901. While he certainly had less spare time than we have these days, I think as a bachelor even with a 10 hour workday there is enough time to practice each day to become a master over the course of say 20 years.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » July 30th, 2015, 12:50 am

Richard Hatch wrote:.....with the middle initial appearing to be a B overwritten by a C to my eye.


I agree. The only other place on the sheet that the little complete circle (located inside the "C") seems to appear is in a capital "B".

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Marty Demarest » July 30th, 2015, 12:55 am

Caslon!

Acorns!

Cover Typeface!

Those last two examples are from another printing firm. A firm that used the acorns and that typeface on cover matter. Maybe the binders of the book?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » July 30th, 2015, 12:58 am

Roger M. wrote:Galloway certainly appears to know his printing business. That he began at 14 becomes apparent. His printing knowledge seems profound (at least to me, who knows very little about printing).


I fully agree here. Gallaway has a remarkable understanding of every aspect of printing from paper, ink, composition, type and typesetting, bindery, the overall process, ... he even knows all the shipping and mailing options. He exhibits the same thoroughness Erdnase exhibits for card table artifice.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » July 30th, 2015, 1:03 am

Chris, there is no getting away from the fact that the similarity of introductions is very compelling.

Your last couple of posts open the door to ponder if perhaps Mr. Erdnase was indeed simply a "remarkable man", one who could master anything he put his mind to.

As I noted in an earlier post, EATCT is a complete system of cheating and deportment, both physical and mental ... hitherto almost completely unseen in terms of its completeness.
I have long felt that it would take a man of extraordinary ability to create the work demonstrated in EATCT and create that work from scratch.

Certainly an interesting concept.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » July 30th, 2015, 1:17 am

I notice Gallaway's signature on p. 4 looks nothing like the handwriting on the Erdnase copyright application.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jack Shalom » July 30th, 2015, 2:05 am

Whether Houdini invented it or possibly showed it to Erdnase is another question, but I think we can be fairly sure that Erdnase did not invent it, since he did not claim to have done so.

It would seem uncharacteristic of Houdini to have invented it without obsessing over it and attacking Erdnase for neglecting to give him due credit.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Tom Sawyer » July 30th, 2015, 5:32 am

Hi All,

One of the fascinating things about a lot of the discussion on this thread is that it appears difficult, if not impossible, to find any two people whose views on the subject are congruent, or even nearly so.

Two people might contend that M.F. Andrews was Erdnase, but then it seems unlikely that both will agree on the facts and the reasoning that they use to reach that conclusion.

I don’t rely a whole lot on Marshall D. Smith’s recollections, but then there are others who apparently believe that Smith’s recollections should be used as a sort of checklist in order to determine a person’s likelihood of being Erdnase.

Be that as it may, if you cannot make a good case for a candidate without mentioning Marshall D. Smith's recollections, I suspect that you are probably very far away from a convincing case.

I suppose that another area where some people may have different views has to do with the Adelphia-met-Erdnase concept. According to The Man Who Was Erdnase (page 152), Hugh Johnston indicated that Erdnase was tall.

It seems that if you mostly accept Smith’s recollections of Erdnase’s physical appearance, you may need to junk what Hugh Johnston said.

At least at the moment, I like Hugh as a witness better than I like Smith as a witness. Richard Hatch and Marty Demarest have each shown that Hugh's comments were not totally accurate, but in spite of this Hugh's main points on Erdnase are not significantly damaged.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » July 30th, 2015, 5:39 am

Bill Mullins wrote:I notice Gallaway's signature on p. 4 looks nothing like the handwriting on the Erdnase copyright application.


Per two copyright analysts I have consulted with, you can't really make that statement from a signature alone. Having said that, the simple explanation is that he didn't fill it out. I have a copy of the copyright application of his "Estimating for Printers" from 1927. From that application it is pretty clear he didn't fill it out either, because his signature was written with a different pen - or different pen pressure - than the rest of the form.

I learned that in the copyright office there is a lot of transcribing going on. Applications, cards for the catalog and other entries were copied by clerks at the copyright office.

Also keep in mind that Gallaway was in 1902 already 20 years in the print industry. By then he didn't hold an entry position. You can also see that in the outstanding wage claim for him in the bankruptcy files. He gets more than others. He clearly held a higher position than most employees in the company. Perhaps he was directly under James or Patrick McKinney. Filling out forms and other mundane tasks he probably delegated.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Zenner » July 30th, 2015, 6:04 am

Jack Shalom wrote:
Whether Houdini invented it or possibly showed it to Erdnase is another question, but I think we can be fairly sure that Erdnase did not invent it, since he did not claim to have done so.

It would seem uncharacteristic of Houdini to have invented it without obsessing over it and attacking Erdnase for neglecting to give him due credit.


Exactly. As I have previously noted, Selbit did not say that Houdini invented that move. He wrote, "For the knowledge of the movement I am indebted to my friend Mr. Harry Houdini, the celebrated "king of handcuffs", who is an extremely clever card manipulator."

Houdini showed Selbit a move that he had learned from somebody else!

The same goes for the the shuffle described in the August, 1901, edition of Mahatma. Walter G. Peterkin ('Hal Merton') claimed that the first two passes were of his own invention but did not say who invented the third. It is quite possible that Harry Thompson showed him the 'pass' before including it in his own book. (‘The Blind Shuffle for Securing Selected Card’)

'Erdnase' wrote "We betray no confidences in publishing this book, having only ourselves to thank for what we know." He wasn't exposing other people's material, only his own. Maybe the fact that his material was being published in 1901 prompted him to put his own book out?

I have been giving some thought to the question "Why did he publish the book under the name 'S.W. Erdnase' and not 'S.W. Erdnace'?" He had obviously been using the name 'E.C. Andrews' in his business dealings with McKinney (and probably Smith), so why not publish the book under that name? Perhaps he was going to and then thought that there might be repercussions as it was somebody else's name. Maybe the change to a reversal of that name was a last minute decision and he told the printer to change it to "S.W. Erdnace" - and the 'Erdnase' spelling was just an error.

Just a thought.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Zenner » July 30th, 2015, 6:40 am

Richard Hatch wrote: If "E. C. Andrews" only contract with McKinney was in August 1902, then we can rule him out as the author, since the book was printed and available for sale no later than March 8, 1902, when two deposit copies were received at the U.S. Copyright Office. Why the book could not have been mentioned earlier in The Sphinx is a mystery to me, since it's first issue is dated March 15, 1902, at least a week after the book came off the presses in Chicago, the very city where the Sphinx was also published. If the author was an intimate of the publishers of the Sphinx, surely he would have welcomed earlier mention and advertising of the book there. The non-mention of the book for such a long period after it was available for sale is one of many reasons I don't believe the author was an active member of the magic community at the time of the book's publication.


But Richard, the contract between "E.C. Andrews" and McKinney arranged in August, 1902, was for "Goods sold and delivered". We don't know what happened between March and August. We can only assume that McKinney printed the book (he probably did) and we can't know that the book was available for sale in March. A few proof copies would have been run off, as I believe they normally are, before the main run is authorised. A couple of these would have been used for the copyright application and a couple for proofreading, and whatever.

Just because a few proof copies were in use does not mean that the book was on general sale before August, 1902!

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » July 30th, 2015, 7:47 am

Roger M. wrote:Chris, there is no getting away from the fact that the similarity of introductions is very compelling.

Your last couple of posts open the door to ponder if perhaps Mr. Erdnase was indeed simply a "remarkable man", one who could master anything he put his mind to.

As I noted in an earlier post, EATCT is a complete system of cheating and deportment, both physical and mental ... hitherto almost completely unseen in terms of its completeness.
I have long felt that it would take a man of extraordinary ability to create the work demonstrated in EATCT and create that work from scratch.

Certainly an interesting concept.


I wouldn't go so far as to say 'anything', but everything we know he was interested in he became an expert in and did pioneering work.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » July 30th, 2015, 9:18 am

This just in: I located a short article written by Edward Gallaway in 1906. This is much closer to the publishing date of EATCT. Here an excerpt from that article:

"In sickness, in sorrow, in the most doleful days of dejection, or in the most gloomy seasons of the calendar, the reading of a good book is the sweetest solace and the surest refuge . . . A book produces a delightful abstraction from the cares and sorrows of this world. By the magic illusion of a fascinating author we are transported from the couch of anguish, or the gripe of melancholy, to Milton's Paradise or the Elysium of Virgil."

Noteworthy here besides the Erdnasian style and eloquence is the phrase "magic illusion". He also refers to Milton whom we find on his bookplate.

So we have him use "vanish into thin air", "magic illusion", and "subterfuge". Anybody doubt he read lots of magic books? :-)

I also hope that folks will not anymore give me a hard time when I state Gallaway was a book lover and obviously loved to read.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » July 30th, 2015, 10:02 am

The 1906 article you quote seems to be plagiarized from Joseph Dennie's The Lay Preacher, written about a century before. Or at least, an unattributed quotation.

Given that these words are Dennie's and not Gallaway's, I don't see how they add to the case that Gallaway wrote like Erdnase.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Edward Finck » July 30th, 2015, 11:57 am

Bill Mullins wrote:The 1906 article you quote seems to be plagiarized from Joseph Dennie's The Lay Preacher, written about a century before. Or at least, an unattributed quotation.

Given that these words are Dennie's and not Gallaway's, I don't see how they add to the case that Gallaway wrote like Erdnase.


Please notice that the passage (which is not a "short article" but an entry in Lodge minutes) was in quotes and probably Gallaway read this into the minutes from another source and thereby wasn't a plagiarist. But to those present it seems clear that he wasn't the author of those words.

Tangentially, there are those that also accuse Erdnase of plagiarism because of very similar passages used in gambling books that were published prior to 1902.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » July 30th, 2015, 12:11 pm

Edward Finck wrote:Tangentially, there are those that also accuse Erdnase of plagiarism because of very similar passages used in gambling books that were published prior to 1902.


Can you elaborate? I know of cases where later gambling writers copied from Erdnase, but not where Erdnase copied from previous writers.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » July 30th, 2015, 12:18 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:The 1906 article you quote seems to be plagiarized from Joseph Dennie's The Lay Preacher, written about a century before. Or at least, an unattributed quotation.

Given that these words are Dennie's and not Gallaway's, I don't see how they add to the case that Gallaway wrote like Erdnase.


I stand corrected. Didn't see the quotes. Gallaway is quoting Dennie.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » July 30th, 2015, 12:55 pm

Here's the case for Gallaway as I currently understand it:

The author presumably had a copy of his own book in his own library.
Gallaway had a copy of the book in his library.

The author had contact with McKinney.
Gallaway had contact with McKinney.

The author was capable of writing and publishing a book.
Gallaway was capable of writing and publishing a book.

His last name has a W in it, as recalled by Smith.

Both are at the "scene of the crime".

That's how I seen things at present. So Gallaway is definitely a person of interest!

That doesn't mean he was Erdnase, but one certainly can't rule him out yet. Among a great many other things, what remains to be shown is whether he likely had the technical skills needed by the author of the book, i.e., the knowledge of sleight of hand. If we can determine what other books on gambling and magic he had in his library, that would be a great step forward, I think...

In that regard, Milton Franklin Andrews is the only one we have who is known to have had the requisite knowledge. Alas, he requires that we discount Smith's recollection almost entirely, plus the lack of writing skill implied by his confession letters makes bringing in an "editor" (Gallaway?) necessary.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Edward Finck » July 30th, 2015, 1:35 pm

Here is the previously promised scan of that old photo from 20 odd years ago. Show's Jay Marshall's doodling in regard to Gallaway. This made at the time when Jay was considering Gallaway's involvement (author?, editor?, binder?) in the book.
I tried to upload it directly but it gave me an error stating that the "board attachment quota has been reached." I'm too old to understand what that means.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B34k6S ... sp=sharing
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » July 30th, 2015, 1:46 pm

I wonder if that folder still exists. Might tell us what he asked Gallaway's daughter-in-law.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Edward Finck » July 30th, 2015, 2:37 pm

lybrary wrote:I wonder if that folder still exists. Might tell us what he asked Gallaway's daughter-in-law.


A lot of Jay's things got lost over time. He showed me files at about this same time (on another subject) that were never found again by anyone! I stupidly did not take pictures of the other file and now it's gone.

His collection wasn't perfectly organized.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Tom Sawyer » July 30th, 2015, 3:52 pm

Well, at the very least, that seems to confirm (in my mind, at least), that Jay believed that Edward Galloway was involved in the book in some important way.

However, in view of the fact that Jay at some time believed that Gallaway bound the book, that by itself does not go further than that (again, in my mind). After all, Jay knew that Marshall D. Smith was not the author, but he included Smith in the notes.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Edward Finck » July 30th, 2015, 4:13 pm

Tom Sawyer wrote:Well, at the very least, that seems to confirm (in my mind, at least), that Jay believed that Edward Galloway was involved in the book in some important way.

However, in view of the fact that Jay at some time believed that Gallaway bound the book, that by itself does not go further than that (again, in my mind). After all, Jay knew that Marshall D. Smith was not the author, but he included Smith in the notes.

--Tom


My interpretation of it is that it was Jay's way of puzzling out why Erdnase used E. and S. when Jay's (new) candidate was initialed M. F.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby magicam » July 30th, 2015, 6:19 pm

Zenner wrote:
Richard Hatch wrote: If "E. C. Andrews" only contract with McKinney was in August 1902, then we can rule him out as the author, since the book was printed and available for sale no later than March 8, 1902, when two deposit copies were received at the U.S. Copyright Office. …

But Richard, the contract between "E.C. Andrews" and McKinney arranged in August, 1902, was for "Goods sold and delivered". We don't know what happened between March and August. We can only assume that McKinney printed the book (he probably did) and we can't know that the book was available for sale in March. A few proof copies would have been run off, as I believe they normally are, before the main run is authorised. A couple of these would have been used for the copyright application and a couple for proofreading, and whatever.

Just because a few proof copies were in use does not mean that the book was on general sale before August, 1902! …

Peter, I can’t speak to the timing of the public sale of Erdnase’s book, but if the LOC received two copies in March 1902 bound in the same manner as other 1st edition copies, then it’s likely that all copies (or at least a good portion of the print run) were bound at the same time. Generally speaking, if done, final text proofing was at the galley stage (if there was one) or in the course of press make-ready. Though there are certainly well-known exceptions of trial bindings, typically copies were not “finally” bound for proofing purposes.

Without more, “goods sold and delivered” sounds like a supplier of sorts; in any case, IMO it seems to clearly indicate that E. C[B]. Andrews sold something to McKinney for which the latter owed the former some money. If McKinney owed Andrews this money for sales of TEATCT, then “goods sold and delivered” seems an awkward way of describing this debt. Perhaps it will be found that Andrews was in the printing business, selling the kinds of things that McKinney would use.

Some years back I floated the idea that the deep price cut in TEATCT was related to McKinney’s BK, as the timing of these events seemed compelling. But if a stock of TEATCT was not listed as a McKinney asset, such theory seems considerably (and perhaps fatally) weakened.

Bill Mullins wrote:
Edward Finck wrote:Tangentially, there are those that also accuse Erdnase of plagiarism because of very similar passages used in gambling books that were published prior to 1902.

Can you elaborate? I know of cases where later gambling writers copied from Erdnase, but not where Erdnase copied from previous writers.

Bill, FWIW I have also been told the same thing (from a source I’d consider very reliable on this topic), and was given the name of one of the pre-1902 books as an example. But as this information was provided during private discussion, I don't think it's mine to publicize.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby lybrary » July 30th, 2015, 7:18 pm

magicam wrote:Without more, “goods sold and delivered” sounds like a supplier of sorts; in any case, IMO it seems to clearly indicate that E. C[B]. Andrews sold something to McKinney for which the latter owed the former some money. If McKinney owed Andrews this money for sales of TEATCT, then “goods sold and delivered” seems an awkward way of describing this debt. Perhaps it will be found that Andrews was in the printing business, selling the kinds of things that McKinney would use.


That is exactly the way I read that portion of the bankruptcy files. Andrews is a supplier of some sort of one of the many things a printer needs to run his business, not an owner of a book that gets paid for sales of the book.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » July 30th, 2015, 9:00 pm

Earlier, Peter Zenner had said that E. C. Andrews had graduated from college in 1901, and worked for Ruxton Ink along Thompson. Ruxton shows up as a creditor on the very next page.

Why would E. C. Andrews, presumably a fairly junior employee, being so young, be listed separately as a creditor from his employer? Is this the same E. C. Andrews?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » July 30th, 2015, 9:07 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:Earlier, Peter Zenner had said that E. C. Andrews had graduated from college in 1901, and worked for Ruxton Ink along Thompson. Ruxton shows up as a creditor on the very next page.

Why would E. C. Andrews, presumably a fairly junior employee, being so young, be listed separately as a creditor from his employer? Is this the same E. C. Andrews?


I believe that Peter Zenner's claim is that this is Harry Thompson, dealing with McKinney using E. C. Andrews as his alias. Seems like a stretch to me... Wasn't Frank Thompson's name supposed to show up in the file somewhere?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 30th, 2015, 10:16 pm

I believe the books that need to be thoroughly vetted for possible plagiarism are Sacks' Sleight of Hand, New Era Card Magic, Modern Magic and sequels prior to 1902. There's another book that slips my mind at the moment.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » July 30th, 2015, 10:24 pm

Ortiz, Busby/Whaley, Jason England, and others have identified tricks and sleights in Erdnase that were previously published by Sachs, Hoffmann, Roterberg, etc. But I'm not familiar with any claims that Erdnase plagiarized them.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » July 30th, 2015, 11:39 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:Ortiz, Busby/Whaley, Jason England, and others have identified tricks and sleights in Erdnase that were previously published by Sachs, Hoffmann, Roterberg, etc. But I'm not familiar with any claims that Erdnase plagiarized them.


Busby and Whaley state in TMWWE (p. 176): "Clearly Erdnase borrowed from - even plagiarized - bits of Evans [How Gamblers Win] for his book."

Whaley backs off from this claim in his 2008 essay on the topic of Erdnase, Loose Ends and Dead Ends, published by Geno Munari. Apparently both books use the term "hypocritical cant" but that expression is hardly grounds for an accusation of plagiarism, as Whaley notes.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Tom Sawyer » July 31st, 2015, 12:23 am

A phrase which was discussed on another thread (but with several people from this thread taking part) is "unflinching audacity." The phrase was used by Professor Hoffmann in More Magic. As Jonathan Townsend pointed out, the phrase had been used in a number of places pre-1902.
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