ERDNASE

[Bill Mullins]

Would someone please look at hand drawn magic illustrations in a book from the same era and see how card backs are depicted.

More Magic More Magic, Hoffman 1890

New Era Card Tricks, Roterberg, 1897

Magician's Tricks: How they are Done, Hatton & Plate, 1910

Sharps and Flats, Maskelyne, 1894

Art of Magic, Downs, 1909

They are done lots of different ways, depending on the artist.

[Richard Kaufman]

Smith's artwork is far more advanced, and realistic in its depiction of anatomy, than that which appears in any earlier magic books.

[Eric Fry]

The drawings for the Hoffmann and Roterberg books are examples of the clutter of too much information.

[Roger M.]

Not to deviate too far from the actual illustrations in EATCT, but the M.D. Smith oeuvre contains some quite stunning paintings of Old New Orleans, amongst other exotic locations.

http://thejohnsoncollection.org/marshal ... w-orleans/

Viewing Smith in light of some of his other artwork tends to indicate that things like shortcuts, quick fixes, and a lack of accuracy really don't seem to fit his style.

Taking into account what's already been highlighted over the past day or so, it is quite safe to consider that Smith drew the very cards that Erdnase used that day, and drew them accurately.

There is no factual evidence or reason to believe that Smith undertook any complex (or otherwise contrived) process whereby Smith might have a reason to illustrate a brand of card other than the one that would have been used by Erdnase, whom one could presume further that (as Bill noted above) having brought his train table to the cold hotel room, Erdnase would have also brought the deck of cards he intended to use on his train table.

Considering the sole undertaking that day was for Smith to illustrate the playing cards in Erdnase's hands, it's safe to proceed knowing that Smith did just that, and did it with the accuracy of a professional illustrator and fine artist.

Smith drew Bee's for no other reason than Erdnase used Bee's as he posed his hands for Smith.

Beyond that, nothing has ever been presented to date that would remotely indicate any other brand of card being used that day. Throwing out a bullet list of unrelated "possibilities" the cards used were a brand other than Bee is simply baseless.

I'll be glad to eat my words should I be proven wrong. Until that time, the fact that Smith illustrated Erdnase using Bee cards should carry the day.

[Bill Mullins]

Taking into account what's already been highlighted over the past day or so, it is quite safe to consider that Smith drew the very cards that Erdnase used that day, and drew them accurately.

I wouldn't go that far. The cards in Fig 2 have no indices, only pips. The cards in other figures have indices. I don't recall many decks like that.

Other shortcuts/licenses/places where the illustrations don't reflect reality:
Fig 8 shows shading/reflections on the table, while Fig 7 does not.
In Fig 22 the left hand thumbnail is 1/3 the width of the deck; in others, it is much smaller (this is an example of why I don't think the drawings were traced from photos).
Erdnase's jacket appears to be white. No one as sophisticated as the author would have worn white before Memorial Day. :/

I don't think Smith was trying to do photorealistic drawings that reflected as accurately as possible what he saw in all details. He was making technical illustrations designed to convey particular points of information, as described by the author in their meetings. If the detail (position of fingers) was important to the author's text, it is probably good (and the expert opinion of much better card men than me tends to confirm this). If the detail was superfluous (French cuffs or not?), then it wasn't conveyed as rigorously.

[Roger M.]

I would posit Bill, that Smith simply had no reason to draw anything but the cards Erdnase was using.

I think you're accurate in your representation that Smith only drew details to the point where he felt Erdnase's message was clear enough to come across to the viewer......but in my view that's still no reason to draw any card other than the one Erdnase actually used.

It remains guesswork of course, using the evidence Smith provided......we simply can't know for sure.
I noted it was "quite safe" to consider the cards Erdnase used to be Bee brand.......but stopped far short of saying I absolutely knew it to be true :)

[Chris Aguilar]

Nattering and wishful thinking about a single bee ace illustration aside, I still don't seen the resemblance at all.




In the interest of not overreaching, I would amend the text above to read "It's probably a coincidence that M.D. Smith used wavy lines..."

Now that the other shoe has dropped and the reproduction deck has officially been announced , at least they've dialed back the claims to:

Available Soon:

Erdnase 216 Playing Cards
Conjuring Arts' attempt to produce a deck that looks and feels just like the cards from Erdnase's time. Available in Green and Tan soon.

The demo photo for the reproduction deck (and also the the original deck) looks visually unappealing to me, but I'm sure the decks will be nicely produced and appeal to the deck collectors out there.

[Leonard Hevia]

Wishful thinking is not required about that Bee Ace of Spades in figure 101. It's already there in the illustration. Smith obviously knew what a Bee Ace of Spades was.

There had to be a Bee deck somewhere in the business deal between S.W.E and Smith. It's possible Smith had a Bee deck at his place and whipped out the Ace of Spades to put in the finishing touches on figure 101--or--S.W.E. loaned Smith the deck so that he could use it as reference to finish the drawings.

Smith did not illustrate any borders on the backs of the cards. If S.W.E. posed with a bordered deck, it is possible that Smith would have drawn the borders in.

I Like the back design and hope that CARC will also issue this new Erdnase deck in a Cambric finish. I prefer the feel of Cambric or air cushion to a smooth finish.

[Bob Coyne]

It seems to me that if this is the deck, then Smith both simplified/abstracted the pattern and rotated it 90 degrees so that the wavy lines go across the width of the deck (rather than across the length of the deck). If you visualize the pattern on the actual deck rotated like that, then I think the match with his illustrations is much more convincing. It seems possible that Smith remembered the wavy pattern but misremembered the direction (or found it stylistically easier or better to depict it the way he did).

[Chris Aguilar]

I'm out guys.

This whole "Cards that may have been used by Erdnase!" nonsense has served as a reminder of the unpalatable taste of constant confirmation bias and fairy tales.

Here's hoping that the new cards turn out well and that CARC sells plenty of them to collectors and those willing to buy into the fantasy.

[Bill Mullins]

Why are these called Bee 216s? The box says Bee No. 92 -- do the cards not belong with this particular box?

[Aron Prins]

Why are these called Bee 216s? The box says Bee No. 92 -- do the cards not belong with this particular box?

View this image of the original box: http://conjuringarts.org/wp-content/upl ... No-216.jpg
:)

Kind regards,
Aron

[Roger M.]

It can be difficult to hold a structured conversation with somebody when they have an agenda unrelated to the discussion thats ongoing (and that they're taking part in).

I had been thinking we were speaking about the Bee Ace illustrated in the EATCT, combined with the multiple illustrations of the back of the (same?) playing card......and how that evidence might lead us to ponder what brand of card Erdnase used in his hotel room while demonstrating for Smith.

In fact, it appears much of the recent discussion was egged on by a desire to disparage CARC and be contrary for contraries sake in order to defeat the much broader issue of perceived confirmation bias.

It's a shame, because it's never a bad idea to oblige forum posters to explain their statements, and Chris was obliging me to explain statements I was making here (something that I believe is always a good thing).

Frankly, I don't see any of this as "nonsense", but rather a quality discussion on a topic of mutual interest, combined with a bit of fun offered by CARC related to a deck of 1900 playing cards that most of us have never seen before.

I also see the bulk of this very thread not as fantasy, but as history. Making history interesting is CARC's specialty, and they do it very well.

[Richard Kaufman]

Smith, I believe, made sketches from life and then actually drew the illustrations later. It would be very easy for a non-magician to falsely remember which direction the lines on the backs of the cards were going, (i.e., from end to end or from side to side). That could easily account for the difference in the direction of the lines between the deck and the drawings in the book.

[Chris Aguilar]

It can be difficult to hold a structured conversation with somebody when they have an agenda unrelated to the discussion thats ongoing (and that they're taking part in).

I had been thinking we were speaking about the Bee Ace illustrated in the EATCT, combined with the multiple illustrations of the back of the (same?) playing card......and how that evidence might lead us to ponder what brand of card Erdnase used in his hotel room while demonstrating for Smith.

In fact, it appears much of the recent discussion was egged on by a desire to disparage CARC and be contrary for contraries sake in order to defeat the much broader issue of perceived confirmation bias.

It's a shame, because it's never a bad idea to oblige forum posters to explain their statements, and Chris was obliging me to explain statements I was making here (something that I believe is always a good thing).

Frankly, I don't see any of this as "nonsense", but rather a quality discussion on a topic of mutual interest, combined with a bit of fun offered by CARC related to a deck of 1900 playing cards that most of us have never seen before.

I also see the bulk of this very thread not as fantasy, but as history. Making history interesting is CARC's specialty, and they do it very well.

Ok, that sort of personal attack (i.e. "agenda") requires a response.

I like CARC. A lot. They have a great team there and I support what they do. I even support buying their decks as I feel it probably provides good margin for them and helps continue their mission. I would recommend their services (e.g. "Ask Alexander") strongly. And, to their credit, their new advertising text for this deck now more accurately reflects it as a product of Erdnase's time, not necessarily (or verifiably) used by him.

However, my "agenda" (which doesn't exist and is actually just my opinion and disagreement with you) has almost nothing to do with CARC, but rather with the nature of what constitutes true (or useful) evidence and a bit of distaste and the lengths people here will spin even the smallest, least convincing (and in this case obviously commercially based) nugget into some grand conclusion.

After recent years of seeing this sort of highly questionable "evidence" proliferate (often drowning out good thoughts and actual history) I've wearied of the trend toward fantasy, confirmation bias and sometimes just making crap up. I'm admittedly guilty of this myself. It's fun to spin stories and theories out of essentially nothing and I do understand the appeal. But I think we look increasingly desperate (and frankly kind of foolish) when we deign to equate solemn discussion of such trifles as examples of validated history.

Now unless Roger would like to continue to spin my simple disagreement with him into more sinister motives, I'll leave everyone to their further discussion of this momentous new "discovery".

[Richard Kaufman]

I've discovered a relic from Wilber Sanders that proves he was S.W. Erdnase--it's the bone of his little finger, which has wear on it that could only have been caused by repeated bottom dealing over a period of many years.

I will be donating (not selling!) this amazing artifact to a famous instituion shortly, where all will be able to view it.

Yes, I am giving Erdnase the finger.

[Bill Mullins]

Is there anyone here who really thinks the drawings in the book are actually meant to depict Bee No. 216s? (and thanks, Aron, I missed that photo)

I never took the CARC statements to be more than tongue-in-cheek marketing.

[Roger M.]

In light of the selection of Bee cards available in 1900, and in my own personal opinion, the 216's fit the bill of "squiggly lines" somewhat better than some of the other, more pictorial Bee back examples.

At the least, the 216's might be considered "closer to" rather than "further from" whatever card Erdnase used with Smith that day.

But all this fantasy and occasional bit of fun seems to rub folks the wrong way, so I wonder how many here really give a crap one way or another.

[Bill Mullins]

Earlier today, I made a post in this thread about an classified ad from 1879 in which someone would teach deceit at the card table. Richard Kaufman commented on it, as did Joe Pecore.

Now all three posts are gone. What happened???

[Leonard Hevia]

Bill-can you repost it? An 1879 ad on the pedagogy of card cheating sounds interesting.

I tried to locate any reversed card maneuver in the Card Tricks section with no luck. I also studied the sections on the Pass, Second Deal, Bottom Deal and Top Change for any mention of the design of the card backs or the borders, but S.W.E. remains tight-lipped on this issue as well.

[Bill Mullins]

Bill-can you repost it? An 1879 ad on the pedagogy of card cheating sounds interesting.

It went something like this . . .
***********repost starts**************
I just ran across an interesting 1879 classified ad from the NY Herald (bold type is mine, and isn't in the original ad):

INSIGHT AND EXPLANATIONS GIVEN TO DECEIT
at all games of cards; will teach any one how to protect
themselves from the most expert at the card table by ad-
dressing C, box 140 Herald offices.

I wonder if the man who placed the ad was named Andrews . . . .
*****************repost ends********************

Then Joe Pecore followed up with an observation that Marty Demarest's article about W. E. Sanders mentioned that Sanders went east about this time. Coincidence?

[Brad Jeffers]

Bart Whaley tells us (in The Man Who Was Erdnase) that Mickey MacDougall came up with the term "mechanic's grip" in his 1939 book Gamblers Don't Gamble. Historical lexicographers (like those who edit the Oxford English Dictionary) always search for the first printed use of a word or phrase when researching. Gamblers Don't Gamble was published Feb 23 1939. But Life magazine, in their Feb 6 1939 issue, had an article about gambling and included a few pages of MacDougall demonstrating some sleights, and it used the phrase two weeks ahead of MacDougall's book (although it's pretty obvious that they got it from MacDougall). So, Life, not MacDougall, gets credit for the first use in print of the term (unless someone finds an earlier citation).

Today, I found an AP article in the Trenton Evening Times (Trenton NJ) dated March 27, 1938. The headline is "Woman with Shiny Nose May Be Gambling Cheat, Declares Card Sleuth, Exposing Racket". In the article, Mickey MacDougall uses the term "mechanic's grip". As far as I am aware, this is the first use of the term in print.

The exact quote is, "There's one best way to spot a cheat. Beware if you see a player holding the deck with his index finger backing up one end of the pack, three fingers curled on the side, and the thumb held diagonally across the top. That's the mechanic's grip, the only grip that permits the bottom deal, the second deal and the top deal with the same hold."

[Joe Pecore]

I just ran across an interesting 1879 classified ad from the NY Herald (bold type is mine, and isn't in the original ad):

INSIGHT AND EXPLANATIONS GIVEN TO DECEIT
at all games of cards; will teach any one how to protect
themselves from the most expert at the card table by ad-
dressing C, box 140 Herald offices.

I wonder if the man who placed the ad was named Andrews . . . .

From Unshuffling Erdnase by Marty Demarest in Genii September 2011

"In 1878, Wilbur Fisk and Harriet decided that the boys needed to complete their education someplace more sophisticated than Helena. So they arranged for them to attend Phillips Exeter Academy, late that summer W.E. and James travelled by train to the East Coast. Upon ariving in New York they discovered they were short on funds. Somehow or other, along the way, they had lost their money. To make up the difference, W.E. traded in a gold nugget that he wore on a pin. W.E. wrote to his mother about the incident, but did not write about it to himself. According to his diary, it is clear that before and after their stop in New York City, money was not a problem. The Sanders parents had sent their children across the country with sufficient funds. And the boys did not spend excessively. But for some reason that he never specified, afterr departing Chicago, something happened that forced W.E. to conduct some "business," as he put it, when he reached New York. It is the first evidence that W.E. Sanders was beginning to lead a double life."

[Leonard Hevia]

Is there a link to a photo of the actual ad?

Once again, Sanders is at the right place at the right time. In the future, he would be in or near Chicago in 1901-1902. It's easy to think that Sanders may have placed this ad, but I wonder if in this instance he might have been the student. He was 18 years old in 1879, still an "unlicked cub" who might have needed "karate lessons" to defeat those who had cheated him at cards.

If Sanders answered this ad and took classes, who then was the master here? Somebody in New York who was damm good at cards in 1879.

[Bill Mullins]

Is there a link to a photo of the actual ad?

It is behind a pay wall.

[Roger M.]

If Sanders answered this ad and took classes, who then was the master here? Somebody in New York who was damm good at cards in 1879.

An interesting concept indeed. That Erdnase might have been a astute student of a single master.

He always seemed to write (at least to my eye) as if he had accumulated his knowledge from his varied travels and experiences, but he never writes anything so explicitly that one could reject that he (in fact) only had a single teacher.

[Bill Mullins]

For the record, I don't really think that the 1879 ad has anything to do with Erdnase or his book. More of an amusing coincidence than anything else.

[Richard Kaufman]

Or perhaps more than a coincidence. Bill, how often do you find that the phrase "expert at the card table" in print at that time?

[Leonard Hevia]

Or perhaps more than a coincidence. Bill, how often do you find that the phrase "expert at the card table" in print at that time?

I'm thinking the same thing. This is the first time that I have seen this phrase in print before the book was published, and for me, this is too compelling to ignore. If this ad had been published in 1869 when Sanders was 8 years old, or if Sanders had been in Montana when this ad came out, then I would at least dismiss Sanders from any connection.

If Sanders is connected in some way to this ad, I believe he might have been the student because 18 years of age is not a considerable amount of time to be an expert at card cheating. He would have been too young while growing up in Montana to gain admittance to the gambling clubs that hosted the big guys who smoked cigars and drank brandy as they cut and shuffled the cards.

This ad raises more interesting points. David Alexander pointed out in his essay that although S.W.E. mentioned in The Expert that he authored his book because of financial difficulties, the profits in book publishing were not substantial. Is it possible that S.W.E began to publish ads in newspapers in New York and Chicago at the turn of the century to teach card cheating techniques and pad his income?

I've been scanning The Expert for the words "teacher" and "student" and found each word once so far. I haven't completed this yet and will continue to search for these two words and see what I come up with. This book has the appearance of a companion textbook to a course in card cheating. Is it possible that S.W.E. had already accepted students from his ads and decided that at some point that he needed to write a companion textbook?

[Bill Mullins]

Or perhaps more than a coincidence. Bill, how often do you find that the phrase "expert at the card table" in print at that time?

I wouldn't consider the phrase to be common, but neither is it unknown before Erdnase's book.


_The Publishers' Circular_ 12/6/1879 p 1193
"Here we have another form of "sport" discussed by as accomplished an expert at the card-table as the previous author is with a rifle." [a UK publication, from Google Books. A book review reprinted from _The Globe_]

_Galveston Daily News_ 4/6/1882 p 2
"In fact gambling is, if not so respectable, less demoralizing, and causes less suffering to the innocent, because these speculations in futures, when applied to the necessities of life, frequently distress the poorer class who take no part in the speculation, but suffer the consequences, while only the dupe and those dependent on him suffer from the expert at the card table." [reprinted from the _Victoria Advocate_]

_Trenton [NJ] Evening Times_ 7/27/1890 p 4
"Miss Louise Decker, of Trenton, is very expert at the card table. At a progressive euchre party given by a leading hotel, she capture a fine cracker jug, as third prize."


_Ft. Worth Daily Gazette_ 12/21/1890 p 16
"Gambling, in other forms than betting on the race track, is greatly on the increase in London. In all the clubs frequented by the golden youth, cards are played for money, and some men of high aristocratic pretensions are known to act as cappers or ropers in for gentlemanly experts at the card table."

Given that only a fraction of 19th century literature is digitized and searchable, and given that much of what has been scanned is poorly OCR'ed, I'd bet that the phrase exists dozens of times in print before 1902.

[Joe Pecore]

If Sanders is connected in some way to this ad, I believe he might have been the student because 18 years of age is not a considerable amount of time to be an expert at card cheating.

Though most 18 year olds 'think' they know a considerable amount at that age

[Richard Kaufman]

I see that Joe now fancies himself as Harry Houdini from his new avatar! I like it.

[Joe Pecore]

It was the Genii cover when I was born.

[Leonard Hevia]

If Sanders is connected in some way to this ad, I believe he might have been the student because 18 years of age is not a considerable amount of time to be an expert at card cheating.

Though most 18 year olds 'think' they know a considerable amount at that age

You got that right, Joe!

[Bill Mullins]

It was the Genii cover when I was born.

Joe's Birth Certificate says that issue's date, but he was running behind schedule and was actually born a few months later . . .

[Bill Mullins]

Erdnase mentions, in passing, the back palm. It is described in detail by Roterberg in 1897, with illustrations.

HERE is a 1903 photograph of it being performed/demonstrated by Imro Fox.

[Bill Mullins]

Earlier in this thread are a number of discussions of Erdnase color change, which is more or less the same as the one in Selbit and attributed to Houdini. The earliest known mention prior to Erdnase (1902) is Selbit (1901), so the timeline is interesting -- how did Erdnase learn about it in time to get it into the book?

In the Watertown NY Daily Times, 3/10/1900, is a copy of an article taken from the Buffalo Express describing a Houdini performance given to a group of reporters prior to the evening public show. First he does a handcuff and a strait jacket escape. Then the needle trick. Then he does a number of card effects in which he "proved himself the equal of any of the famous magicians who have made card tricks a specialty and the superior of most of them."

His performance included a multiple selection routine, 3 card monte, a poker deal, and a blindfolded card stab. He also did some color changes:

"Then he took the pack of cards which a reporter had provided and , after performing several difficult shuffles with apparent ease, held the pack face upward, showing the ten of hearts on top. He passed his right hand lightly over the top of the pack and the ten of clubs appeared. It looked as if he had dexterously palmed the ten of hearts. He passed his hand over the pack again and the ten of hearts appeared on top. Once more he passed his hand over the pack. The queen of clubs was on top. Those who saw it and were more or less familiar with conjurer's tricks asked him to turn over his right hand expecting to find two cards palmed there. The hand was empty."

I think this sequence included the Erdnase change (along with some other stuff). This would be the earliest we know of it being performed (although not explained) – plenty early for Erdnase to have either seen it and worked it out himself, or to have had it explained to him by Houdini (or someone else).

[Leonard Hevia]

Earlier in this thread are a number of discussions of Erdnase color change, which is more or less the same as the one in Selbit and attributed to Houdini. The earliest known mention prior to Erdnase (1902) is Selbit (1901), so the timeline is interesting -- how did Erdnase learn about it in time to get it into the book?

I think this sequence included the Erdnase change (along with some other stuff). This would be the earliest we know of it being performed (although not explained) – plenty early for Erdnase to have either seen it and worked it out himself, or to have had it explained to him by Houdini (or someone else).

Erdnase had enough time to purchase Selbit's book and practice this color change before publishing it in his own book. The time line here does make sense. Houdini performs this in 1900 months before his summer trip to Europe, and it appears in Selbit's book with credit to Houdini in 1901. It then surfaces again in Erdnase's book a year later.

[Richard Kaufman]

This is pretty amazing: this thread is up to almost one million, three hundred thousand views so far. And where is Mr. Andrews?

[Zenner]

I know where his body lies, Richard, but I am not prepared to show my hand just yet. The research is done, now all I have to do is write the book

It took me four years to find the name of the man who wrote the Shakespeare works. It only took me two days to find a candidate for Erdnase. A two week free trial with ancestry.com gave me an outline of his biography; now I am just filling in. He ticks ALL the boxes.

Thanks for an interesting thread, everybody, but, I am pleased to say, nobody has even mentioned my man. I am travelling in virgin territory.

Best wishes,

Peter Zenner