Question for guitar playing magicians

[Terry]

With learning the guitar, I have noticed as the callouses increase, the feeling in my left finger tips decreases.

Being right handed, I hold the deck in my left. My question to other guitarists/magicians - what do you do to work around the problem?

[CardFan]

Terry,
I'm a violinist and have callouses in my fingertips, too. It's never really been a problem (and I use the pinky count extensively). What kinds of problems have you been experiencing?

Joey

[Bob Coyne]

I find that the calluses on the left fingertips from guitar playing interfere a bit, mostly with second dealing. It's harder to feel/control the card(s) sliding over the middle fingertip on right side of the deck. This is the only sleight where calluses are a significant problem for me. I have no solutions -- though it's not always a problem since I tend to do guitar playing in spurts and the calluses come and go.

[Jon Elion]

I'll come at this question from the other end -- minimizing your guitar-related calluses. You should try to gain finesse with your playing so you don't build up such big calluses. It really doesn't take THAT much pressure to push and hold down the strings of a properly-setup guitar. Finger the strings just above the fret, and learn to push down JUST HARD ENOUGH to sound the note. You are probably pushing the string much harder than you have to (most players do).

Also, consider going to lighter gauge strings (even easier to push down). Make sure the guitar is properly "set up" (height of strings above the neck, height of the "nut" at the tuning peg end, height of the saddle at the body end, etc.). If you bought it recently, the store should offer your a free "setup" adjustment after about 6 weeks (the "break in period"). You'll be amazed at the difference the setup work can make in the "playability" of the instrument.

Click here to learn more about guitar setup

-Jon Elion

[Rafael Benatar]

I agree with Jon. The first couple of years of guitar playing is when you get the harder calluses. With time, you learn to apply just the right amount of pressure. Never had a problem with second dealing (at least not for that reason). However, if you bevel the deck slightly to the right, you should be able to feel the passing cards with the softer part of the fingertips. I've only needed to make adjustments for side-stealing and related actions. In the pro side, you get an edge for the pinkie pull-down.

[Terry]

Thanks Joey, Bob, Jon, and Rafael!

Should have supplied more info than I did. I am learning Bluegrass style and participated at my first Jam session last Thursday. Not only my first time playing with/in front of people, but I also "sang" two songs. "Sang" in that we were at a BBQ restaurant and the noise helped drown out my own. :D One of the "oldtimers" asked me if I would be interested in joining a Gospel group.

It was a blast except that I felt like I was playing with all thumbs. I was the least experienced player. Much like learning to play tennis, if you go at it with those better than you, you either have to improve or give it up.

[mark]

Terry, a couple of items here. I agree with those whose calluses seem to have lightened up with experience. I suspect it is a product of not only better technique with fretting the instrument, but likely most of us are not on the feverish practice schedule we kept when guitar/violin/pick one was a new thing and we were determined to be great overnight. That said, your choice of bluegrass leads to a bit different setup than we are talking about. The nature of the bluegrass beast is of flatpicking rather firmly, requiring higher action to avoid string slap. I am assuming here that you are a flatpicker, if you fingerpick, we are back to square one with a more reasonable action on the guitar. I hope I haven't muddied the waters here, but before I played fingerstyle I owned a couple of nice bluegrass Martins, and they were tough on the fingers. I have been playing about 35 years, and while the skin on my left fingertips is pretty durable I don't have the 'caps' of callus on my fingers anymore.

Mark

[Terry]

Mark,

Thanks for the post and info. You are correct in that Bluegrass is a bear. We are learning the flatpick method.

Right now, as a beginner, I am using a low-end Takamine Jasmine model. I believe it is mahogany wood and has a nice rich bass sound. The action is lower than standard Bluegrass I believe.

I am using the class to develop practice skills and to learn to play. My preferred choice is Blues music. There isn't many around here that teach it and my instructor said you can take Bluegrass and adjust it to the Blues style.

I am a late in life Stevie Ray Vaughn fan and that is what got me off my duff at 40 to finally learn to play. While I'm not as gifted musically as he was, and not many are, it does give me something to shoot for.

[Guest]

Terry:

SRV is a great goal to shoot for; wait 'til you find out how heavy his strings were!

--Randy Campbell

[Bill Evans]

Terry:

Here's my take on your situation. I play acoustic instruments professionally in a 10 piece rock band, so I play or practice almost every day. Playing an acoustic guitar puts different stress on the fingers than playing electric guitar. You have to have pretty good callouses to play daily on an acoustic. This has always been a problem to me doing card magic, especially for fingertip controls like the side steal. Because the callouses are hard, I have trouble getting "purchase' on the card to push it into right hand palm. The fingers tend to slide over the card....the action you want when playing guitar, but not doing card magic. Mike Skinner turned me on to a product called Lee Paper Cream that works perfect for me. Others use different products and there is a discussion on this somewhere on this Forum. Try them all and use what is best for you and you shouldn't have any trouble doing any sleight you want.

Oh, BTW, try Elixer guitar strings. I switched over to them from D'Addario a few years ago and they greatly eliminate string noise and finger stress, plus they last a lot longer. Get the Nanoweb coating for the brightest sound.

Hope this helps.

Bill

[Terry]

Randy,

Already know. I have the GHS Nickle Rockers on the Fender Strat I have. Had to go from 3 spring to 5 on the bridge. Almost like playing the accoustic.

Bill,

Emailed Takamine about recommended strings for the Jasmine and they replied with D'Addario EXP16 (.012-.053) Phosphor Bronze strings.

My instructor recommended the Elixer strings because of the long play life.

Will do on the light gauge!

Thanks again!

[Terry]

Here's a different line of question.

I was in Memphis in June (honeymoon) and got to tour the Gibson plant there. They currently make only electric guitars. If everyone knew what was involved just to get their guitar in the box to sell, you would understand the cost.

Anyway, I went nuts over the Natural finish J-200 model. It costs $2000. On the upside though, the Elvis model - name on neck and his pickguard - runs $5000. No I didn't buy one.

I have found that Epiphone makes a EJ-200 duplicate of the J-200. The cost is around $400.

What are some opinions of Epiphone and/or this guitar?

I am planning on selling my Strat to buy a new accoustic as I prefer playing accoustic more than the electric.

[Steve Snediker]

I am a guitarist and semi-pro magisch who recently found a tidbit in John Carney's "Book of Secrets". Without lifting too much of the content, John recommends using your strong hand (for us righties, that would be our RIGHT hand) for doing the moves that we normally assign to our left hand.

At first I found this quite revolutionary, but it would certainly change the impact left hand callouses have on handing the pasteboards. Plus, the challenge of being ambidextrous with my card and coin sleights offers a lot of new options.

On the other hand (pun intended), guitarist have developed some unusual muscles in their chording hand (left for me) and might have other advantages not mentioned herein.

At any rate, check it out...and get used to dropping a ton of cards again trying to one-hand riffle shuffle with your right hand. :D

Guilty of Public Prestidigitation --

Steve Snediker
WonderMakers Workshop

[Joe Z]

Originally posted by Terry Terrell:
Anyway, I went nuts over the Natural finish J-200 model. It costs $2000...

I have found that Epiphone makes a EJ-200 duplicate of the J-200. The cost is around $400.

What are some opinions of Epiphone and/or this guitar?

Spend the money and get the Gibson J-200. There is no comparison. I play a Martin HD-28 and think it is the finest acoustic guitar I've ever owned -- but the J-200 comes in a close second IMO.

BTW, I've played guitar for as many years as I've performed magic/mentalism (+25), and I find that my callouses do not adversely affect the sleights that utilize my left fingertips (side steal, etc.).

But then again, I do play a Martin and am primarily a mentalist. Go figure... :rolleyes:

Joe Z.

[mark]

Terry, if you thought there were some divided opinions on the pass, try asking a few acoustic guitarists about there brand allegience! I am a Taylor guy, but trust me, it is from honest research. I have owned several Gibsons and Martins, some Yamaha, Alvarez, and others. The Taylor gives major bang for the buck, they are a consistenly high quality guitar in tone, and a joy to play. I have both a 414 cutaway electric and a Leo Kottke signature 12 string, and couldn't be happier. On the plus side, they just released the best lower end guitar I have ever played, and it is called the 100 series. Just find one and give it a try (about $6-700), and if you are in the mood to spend more, they range from there to fifteen grand or so. I am an acoustic player, I play regularly, and my fingers aren't unsightly, though I do need to use Sortkwik for card work.

[Guest]

Fascinating thread!

I am a high school and elementary school music teacher and former college music professor. A saxophonist by calling, I took up the guitar about 25 years ago, both as a hobby and as practical necessity to be able to help out my jazz band students in the rhythm section.

My current axe is a Fender 1950's Strat reissue from 20+ years ago. I love it, but I need to have the action reset. A friend and pro guitarist set it a tad low, and I am getting some buzz on the low E string. Plus, getting under the strings to bend them is a bit tougher when the action is low, esp. for a part-time hobbyist. Wish I had more time to spend on both magic and guitar!

Anyway, I appreciate the recommendations here on acoustic guitars, because I have been wanting one. Any suggestions on good quality practice amps for either electric or acoustic/electric guitars?

Jon

[Terry]

Mark,

You're correct on the Taylor brand. One of the ladies in our class just bought one and it is clear as a bell. I've enjoyed playing it before class begins.

The only problem I have now is putting out the $$ on any guitar. Just got married this past June and found out 1st of July we are pregnant. Until I sell the Fender, putting out any money on anything is a major decision.

That and I am not at the level I think I should be before investing big $$ on a new guitar. The Jasmine plays well and has a sound I enjoy. Talk about being pulled on both sides!!! :D

[Bill Evans]

Originally posted by Jon A. Hand:


Any suggestions on good quality practice amps for either electric or acoustic/electric guitars?

Jon [/QB]

"Good quality" and "practice amp" go together like "easy" and "pass". :D

Seriously though, for acoustic amps, I would go with SWR's Strawberry Blonde. I play through the larger California Blonde on stage for a monitor fill and the sound is excellent.

You can probably find an electric guitar practice amp to fill your needs easier than an acoustic amp. Amplifying an acoustic guitar is an unnatural act, but it is in fact legal in all 50 states. ;) So much goes into getting a good amplified acoustic guitar sound. People like Jackson Browne have devoted their professional lives into getting it right and they are still working at it. Assuming you have the right pickup system, you need to go with a quality amp or you will be sorely disappointed with the result.

Bill

[mark]

Jon (and Bill) I have just the amp for you! I had been reading on an acoustic guitar forum, and the guys were joking about trading their more expensive amps for a relatively inexpensive amp that kicks major butt. I researched it further, found out they were right, and found an inexpensive amp that honestly reproduces the sound of your acoustic instead of making it sound like a low quality electric guitar. It is called Ultrasound (www.ultrasoundamps.com), and I bought mine from Shoreline Acoustic Music (www.samusic.com). They are currently clearing out this year's models as they bring in the updates. I have the little 30 watt, and it is an awesome practice amp and more. I use it inline with the big system in our church, and I have no more sound man problems. He doesn't have to fiddle with EQ stuff, He just trusts ye olde Ultrasound. I've had it over a year, I can recommend this with no hesitation, and are you ready for this? I got mine for less than $200.

[Guest]

Mark,

Thanks for the recommendation! I'll check it out!

BTW, a friend who wants to get into guitar to start has asked me about the Strat Squier axe/amp packages (around $200 at music stores). Are these worth fooling around with, or should I suggest he go up a bit?

Jon

[Dan LeFay]

Oh my gosh...now the nitpicking craze of the cardicians is combined with the (even worse) nitpicking of guitarists, hahaha!
It is so cool to finally read something about this combination and realise there are actually so many of us out there...

Terry, I completely sympathise with you. Your choice of style is what makes it hard, and your awe for Stevie (maybe wanting to emulate his playingstyle) makes it even worse.
For years I played a 0.13 set of strings on an Ovation Custom Legend and later a J-200, just to have that "larger than life sound". I ruined the nerve-ends of my left hand. Though I've stopped playing for about 6 years now, the callus is almost gone, but the lesser sensitivity remains.
I don't have any purpose for learning a second deal, but I would love to be able to do a pinkycount. Funny thing is that the strenght, that so many writers talk about is no problem, but hey, I don't feel anything at all in my pinky.

Incidently I still play a fingerstyle Larrivee (0.12) which is as sweet as a classical guitar, excellent for Celtic, North American or even Jazz tunes...

Maybe I may take opportunity to go from a technical to a creative question:

Are there any guys out there who've been combining the art of guitar with the art of magic?

[Rafael Benatar]

Hello Dan,

Thoroughly enjoyed your act at FISM. I can't see how a guitar-playing callous can affect your pinkie count. I do the pinkie count with the inner part of the finger, and it's not even the tip. If counting many cards (many being about 15), the counting point gradually shifts towards the middle of the outer phalanx. I do this with a violin-like grip, with the deck somewhat beveled to the left, and releasing the cards at their inner left corners. The finger doesn't actually pull down but rather closes. Still, if you release the cards a little higher up the deck's right edge, the contact point would be the same, though in this case you'd need to pull down. and yes, your strong left hand does make a difference.

[Jeff Eline]

I'm amazed at the number of musician/magicians! Pretty cool! Imagine the jam "session" we could have!!

I've been playing for over 30 year, mostly jazz. However, about 4 years ago I started gigging out solo acoustic (Taylor guitars ;) ). My calluses got 10x worse, and as a result, my side steal suffered.

The only solution I've found is moisturizing and a lighter grip on the deck.

Good luck Terry - on the marriage, the new baby and the guitar lessons! Don't give up - it's all worth it!

Jeff

PS - In Stevie Ray Vaughn's biography, he talks about his finger bleeding from the intense playing and the heavy gauge strings. In between sets, he would super glue his fingertips. Do that and then try a side steal!!

[Jeff Eline]

Originally posted by Dan LeFay:
Are there any guys out there who've been combining the art of guitar with the art of magic?

The greatest bass player alive - Victor Wooten - is also an amatuer magician. In his own show, not with Bela Fleck and Flecktones, he does some magic mixed with his music. Although his playing is magic all by itself!

[Terry]

This has turned into an extremely interesting and lively thread!

Here's the new twist - yesterday I was at Willis music and found the guitar I am buying. Takamine EG523SC. Acc/Elec Jumbo body in Natural finish. All the big sound of the J-200 but with elec hookup, EG onboard, tuner and the action is so smooth and light that a breath is all it takes.

Really sweet guitar!

If anyone knows anyone who wants a lightly used Fender Strat with hard shell case + softside gig bag, let me know.

[Terry]

Jeff,

Sorry I didn't address your reply. Thanks for the best wishes on family and learning!

Re Stevie Ray - I have the GHS Nickle Rockers on the Strat and had to add 2 additional springs to the bridge to handle the tension. I can testify they REALLY do require intense pressure to play or bend. It's takes a real man to play those strings! That's why I focus on the accoustic side! :D I can only imagine the strength he had in his hands.

[mark]

Wow, lots to reply to. First, the Squire Strat is a great beginner, two of my sons have them. I would say that if the potential guitarist is unsure about the future of his guitar phase it is a smart purchase (inexpensive, and easy to get the money back out of them). They are easy to play, stay in tune relatively well, though the 'spider web' strings are pretty stretchy. Here's some Stevie Ray stuff for you. The glueing that he used for his fingers took two forms. When the string bending got really enthusiastic, Stevie's finger would begin to pull away from the fingernail. His remedy was to pour super glue between his nail and finger, hold on tight for a minute or two, and bend away. When the skin on the tips of his fingers began to shred from shredding, he was said to have poured super glue on his forearm, stuck his fingers to it, and pulled away, 'borrowing' some skin from his arm to complete the set. He was dedicated.
Nice guitar, that Larivee. I have played a few and liked a couple. My only complaint with their guitars is that I would like to have one made for me and appointed accordingly, but the ones I have played are just not consistent in their sound. I think that in the end I will have to get one of the Sierra luthiers to build one that I like. Anyone played a McCollum? Sweet. I have not yet gotten the guitar and magic in one act or routine. I am at least practicing both in the same room, so perhaps they will help me make it happen. Great to hear from all of you multitalented artists!

[Guest]

Mark,

Thanks for sharing your expertise with us hobby guitarists! I, too, do a lot of jazz playing, mostly quartet work with me on sax. Never had the time to work up jazz chops on guitar; did perform for a couple of years in a contemporary Christian group as guitarist, songwriter, and arranger.

Anybody else into orchestration? I compose and write arrangements for symphony orchestra, concert band, jazz big band, etc., as well as for small groups. I have been fortunate enough to have two different orchestras in two states perform some of my orchestral stuff.

Jon

[Bill Evans]

Originally posted by Mark Jens:
[QB I think that in the end I will have to get one of the Sierra luthiers to build one that I like. Anyone played a McCollum? Sweet. [/QB]

Mark

Check out Roy McAlister [McAlister Guitars] who makes guitars one at a time in Watsonville California. David Crosby turned me on to him and he made me a guitar that plays like butter and sounds like a piano. go to

http://www.mcalisterguitars.com/

Finally, for my magic friends who might be interested in the music of Crosby Stills and Nash, I moderate a Forum on the official Crosby Stills and Nash website dealing with the guitars, equipment and techniques of CSN. It's loaded with lots of interesting stuff. go to

http://forum.crosbystillsnash.com/ubb-c ... matebb.cgi

and click on "Guitars and Equipment" then click on "Show all Topics" and hit "Go"

Bill

[Jeff Eline]

Bill,

Shouldn't you be playing piano?? ;)

[Terry]

Another good place to look for guitars, other instruments and misc is:

www.musiciansfriend.com

They have great prices on guitars and friendly service.

[Conus]

Guitars and magic?

I recall that Ricky Jay's "Cards As Weapons" included a photo of Emmy Lou Harris scaling a card from her guitar strings.

(I no longer have the book - I gave it away years ago.)

[John LeBlanc]

Originally posted by Terry Terrell:
Another good place to look for guitars, other instruments and misc is:

www.musiciansfriend.com

They have great prices on guitars and friendly service.

For a couple of years I've done business with http://www.zzounds.com

Getting onto the email list and paying attention to what specials they are offering has saved me loads of money.

For instance, I picked up a Line6 Variax "blem" for several hundred off. To this day I can't find what made it a blem.

I also picked up a set of ADAT cards for my Yamaha 02R mixing console at a little more than one third the cost of retail.

Excellent service, perfect record, and you can actually speak to a human being when you call their number.

John

[Dan LeFay]

Rafael, it is a thrill to have caught the eye from someone like you at FISM. Thank you!
As for the pinky, there is more to it than callus alone with me. My nerve endings are really messed. I know that because in the 4 or 5 years I did not touch a guitar, most of the callus disappeared from all of my fingers. Still the feeling of my pinky was less than 30% (I estimate of course)...

Man, those stories about SRV and what he did with his fingers are really gruesome! On the other end, he was/is my only true guitar hero! Saw him perform at the very same place where FISM 2003 was held in The Hague, in 1985 at North Sea Jazz!

Currently I am "dreaming" an act together with my friend/magician/guitarist Remon for FISM 2006. If we remain true to our dream, everyone who posted on this thread should be there...(Oh my, I just made a commitment;-)

Bill, do you know any original transcriptions for CSN (for instance Guinevere)? I love them!

[Guest]

Wow great post this was for me the reason too create a profile on the Genii forum. My name is Remon and Ive always played electric guitar in bands mostly. My love for magic started when I was 21 and about 2,5 years ago I met Dan le Fay at a Master class of Eugene Burger and Jeff McBride where he showed his initial idea of doing coin explosion. As a guitarist I immediately was very moved as the music and magic was synchronous in every detail (which we unfortunatly dont see that often in magic). We teamed up and now Ive accompanied him on guitar for FISM2003 were we opened the close up gala. I can only tell that it is strange too see that magic has put me right back into playing the guitar again and the combination of those two is just superb and absolutely a great source for inspiration.

I've always played electric and used very light strings. Now suddenly since the composition for Dan's magic was written for a twelve string I had too change my style drastically. I Never played a twelve string before and I can tell that Im not really good at it too say the least and I should become much better. Though the strings are heavier and youve got too put a lot more work into it I cant say it affected my magic at all. I can still do everything I did before.

[Bill Evans]

Dan and Remon

Nice picture of you performing the magic/guitar act you posted about at FISM in this month's issue of Magic.

[Dan LeFay]

Hahaha, and I just switched my Magic subscription to Genii two months ago! Bummer!

Working with Remon on magic-music presentations is absolutely a joy. I am convinced it will create possibilities to touch people in ways they never experienced...in time, in time.

[Pete Biro]

Knock if off LeFay... there are too many good Dutch Magicians already!!! :D :D :D

[Bill Mullins]

Originally posted by Bill Evans:

Originally posted by Dan LeFay:
[b]
Bill, do you know any original transcriptions for CSN (for instance Guinevere)? I love them!

Sure....go to http://www.alpha.nl/CSN/frames.html and click on the song section. This is an old site that is not updated, but has a ton of CSN songs that others have tabbed out. [/b]

A whole lot of bandwidth gets used on this site defending the rights of magicians to control the use of their creations. I wonder if it is appropriate for magicians to be so cavalier about the copying of lyrics/music of musicians. The website in question has copyrighted lyrics to CSN songs, without notice of copyright, or any indication that royalties have been paid.

If someone had a website where they had reviewed Ricky Jay's show over and over, and posted complete patter with notations as to what sleights were being used and where, we'd be up in arms. The CSN site is no better.

[Ben Harris]

What a buzz (pun intended).

So many guitarist/magi out there.

Taylors and Tak'es are beautiful guitars.

I play mostly Dave Gilmour material which really requires a Strat. However, my fave is a PRS Custom 22. Plays like a breeze and has a tone to die for. Great for Santana stuff.

What's your fave pedals, people?

Cheers

Ben