Final five

[mrgoat]

The final 5 speakers have been announced from the Essential Magic Conference.

David Berglas
Gene Matsuura
Hiro Sakai
Mike Caveny
Stan Allen (never heard of him ;))

Have you really still not registered yet?

This is the best line up of any conference ever, and you (as Mr Field pointed out) can attend in your underwear!

You get the online event live, where you can interact. You get the whole thing available on demand after for a year, and you get the 8 DVD box set sent post free anywhere in the world all for just $99. That's $3 per magician.

Get involved.

[Larry Horowitz]

How long of a presentation do the speakers give?

[Richard Kaufman]

Sorry, but the Genii 75th has the best line up of any conference anywhere :) ... and you'll be able to shake hands with the legends and get their autographs in person. INCLUDING Uri Geller, whom we've just booked.

[mrgoat]

Sorry. Of course the genii conference is better. Schoolboy error!


But uri gelled is a despicable con artist scammer and I would prefer to give him a slap than shake his hand.

And larry, depends but it's like Ted. So around 20 minutes each. The schedule runs all day for 3 days. Hours of content..

[Richard Kaufman]

No comments about Uri's past adventures, please.

Wait until you see Uri's lecture NOW. He is the most influential entertainer in the art of mystery in the last half century. He shares what he knows.

[John M. Dale]

Gonna invite James Randi to attend and give us a review?

JMD

[Richard Kaufman]

No ... I don't think so.

[mrgoat]

Gonna invite James Randi to attend and give us a review?

JMD

I, as they say, lolled.

[Larry Horowitz]

No comments about Uri's past adventures, please.

Wait until you see Uri's lecture NOW. He is the most influential entertainer in the art of mystery in the last half century. He shares what he knows.

Richard,

I do not see how we can be expected to listen to and appreciate Uri sharing what he knows, without discussion of his past.

What he knows is only relevant in context with his past. What he accomplished as an entertainer was in spite of the naysayers.

[Richard Kaufman]

"What he knows is only relevant in context with his past. What he accomplished as an entertainer was in spite of the naysayers."

Yes, of course that's true. It's only because of his experience that he is able to give the kind of lecture that he's going to give. What I don't want to read here is a litany of skeptics reciting their usual anti-Geller mantra.

The guy bends spoons and laymen think he's one of the most amazing people in the world--that should tell magicians that he's got a lot of good ideas about how to present "miracles."

[Magic Newswire]

How long of a presentation do the speakers give?

Hi Larry,
You might check their site over the weekend. They have been posting some of the lectures for free viewing for a limited time to give people a sample of what the lectures are like. Needless to say, IMHO, they are great and this is an incredible value.

[Tim Ellis]

"The guy bends spoons and laymen think he's one of the most amazing people in the world--that should tell magicians that he's got a lot of good ideas about how to present "miracles."

Yes. Laymen think he's amazing because he said it was real, not magic.

[Richard Kaufman]

It's all part of his style of presentation. When you perform the Ambitious Card, do you narrate the methodology you're using? No. And they'd be much more impressed if you said you really don't know how or why the card keeps coming to the top.

[Tim Ellis]

You're right Richard that when I, and I suspect most people, perform the Ambitious Card, we don't narrate the methodology we're using. No magicians I know that do for any tricks.

But we do admit they are tricks.

We don't claim that we are able to do it because of mind powers that everyone watching can develop if they buy our books or DVDs.

Not taking anything from Mr Geller. He made an interesting artistic choice with his presentation. Some would say it crossed an ethical line. Especially the Zanex Mining Company that paid him tens of thousands of dollars to psychically find gold for them because his powers were "genuine".

[Q. Kumber]

Magicians seem to be the most predictable people on the planet. Something is announced and everyone chimes in on the forums with pages and pages of opinions ranging from the occasional bit of common sense to the wild ravings that make grotty tabloids look upmarket.

No doubt Uri Geller is controversial, especially amongst magicians. Many of them have made large sums of money or achieved reams of publicity in their attempts to debunk and belittle him, yet he is still right up there in the public eye.

Hate him or love him, it would be very foolish to dismiss him as not worth listening to.

Back in the 1970's, Tony 'Doc' Shiels wrote a book The Shiels Effect, which basically describes the methods used by Geller to achieve international publicity. When I republished the book a few years ago I commented that David Blaine used the same formula.

By all means bash Geller but if you are going to do so about his Genii lecture, please wait until after he has given it and you have seen it.

[mrgoat]

It's all part of his style of presentation. When you perform the Ambitious Card, do you narrate the methodology you're using? No. And they'd be much more impressed if you said you really don't know how or why the card keeps coming to the top.

Indeed, that is true. I have never said 'and now, check out my turnover pass and double lift'.

But, equally, no one thinks I am doing real magic, and I am not being paid money and getting famous because I claim I am doing real magic.

I think that is the, albeit obvious, point here.

[Richard Kaufman]

The idea many magicians have that laymen simply believe they are using sleight of hand or some tricky prop has always intrigued me.

I am not a particularly good performer in terms of presentation, however my experience has been that when doing closeup magic for individuals I can spook the crap out of them with card tricks. I don't have to intimate anything.

It's important to keep in mind that the great majority of people in the world believe in the supernatural. Any religious person, which includes the great majority of people in the US, believes in the supernatural in one form or another.

What I have written is actually the tiniest start of a long long discussion that, if it has been published somewhere, I have not seen.

I am CERTAIN that there are laymen who saw Max Maven's show during its New York run and believe that he has real powers of some sort. No question. The magical community at large has failed to recognize that this odd form of belief by laymen extends to card tricks as well if they are presented in a straightforward and magical manner.

You never have to claim to have "powers" in order for some people to think you have them. I discovered this in my early 20s when doing card tricks every night at The Mad Hatter, a singles bar in New York where I used to hang out. I think it also depends on the type of card tricks you do.

I havent't written about this before because, frankly, the idea of being attacked about it is not something that I look forward to. However, this seems as good a time as any, so have at it, folks. :)

[Jonathan Townsend]

...
It's important to keep in mind that the great majority of people in the world believe in the supernatural. Any religious person, which includes the great majority of people in the US, believes in the supernatural in one form or another.

What I have written is actually the tiniest start of a long long discussion that, if it has been published somewhere, I have not seen...

The notion of "agency" comes up from time to time. Some magicshop books mention "accounting for the magic".

[mrgoat]

It's important to keep in mind that the great majority of people in the world believe in the supernatural. Any religious person, which includes the great majority of people in the US, believes in the supernatural in one form or another.

I am CERTAIN that there are laymen who saw Max Maven's show during its New York run and believe that he has real powers of some sort. No question. The magical community at large has failed to recognize that this odd form of belief by laymen extends to card tricks as well if they are presented in a straightforward and magical manner.

Yes, there are lots of vulnerable people that believe in other world forces and they have money to spend on this market. Phone lines, crystals, and other nonsense (stuff Mr Geller used to sell on QVC here in the uk).

Yes, some people see magicians and think they have powers.

But, 99% of magicians *say* they are magicians.

Mr Geller lies, and claims explicitly he has powers or claims he doesn't know how the tricks he does happen.

I think that is the key difference.

As magicians, we aren't setting out with the sole intent of making someone actually believe, and pay us money, for doing something we are only pretending to do.

[Matthew Field]

Richard, you first told me that tale (in a bit more detail) when I was chauffering you, David Roth and Mark Phillips to a magic lecture at Darrell Harris's New Jersey club. The three of us were amazed and we had a great discussion.

It's more than 25 years later and the subject is still ripe for discussion.

Matt Field

[Michael Kamen]

Quite so Mr. Goat. To JT's point, we can account for the magic in a way that feeds credulity, as does Mr. Geller so skillfully, or in a way that playfully jolts the creative imagination. I think we do have a choice. Clearly if we do not account for the magic they will, to RK's point making us defacto charlatans about half the time.

[Ian Kendall]

I'm looking forward to seeing Geller. I'm going to have to bite my tongue _really_ hard to stop myself saying something that will get me into some kind of trouble.

Anyone who knows me will realise that this eventuality is pretty much unavoidable, though.

[Marco Pusterla]

But, 99% of magicians *say* they are magicians.

Indeed they do. And 99.9% of these magicians are just that, entertainers for a night out, expandable and replaceable by any other magician.

Very few magicians are so unique to make a mark in history and popular culture: Houdini was one, David Copperfield another one (with the statue of Liberty), David Blaine is the most recent example, Derren Brown has a good chance to do it, but Uri Geller is definitely already there (in popular culture, I mean). Those names will go down in history (or have already gone down...), certainly not me or the other 99% of magicians Damien indicated.

Geller has found a way to reach a success that is way above what most magician will ever reach: his path may not be acceptable, but maybe somebody could look at the bigger picture and find his/her own path to reach a similar success. This is what has always fascinated me about Geller: how he managed to create such attention and such PR from such a trivial effect (although original). If I only could do the same! (with my ambitious card, of course! :D ).

Still, I am totally OT on this thread and I apologize to the administrators.

[Richard Kaufman]

No problem about being off topic. I frequently go OT myself.

Part of what Geller will lecture about is how to achieve what he has.

It seems to me that there's a real interesting difference between the way magicians romance the lives of people who cheat at gambling, while simultaneously condemning palm readers or someone who can bend a spoon and claim that it's a real power and get paid for that.

Well, anyone ...

[mrgoat]

No problem about being off topic. I frequently go OT myself.

Part of what Geller will lecture about is how to achieve what he has.

It seems to me that there's a real interesting difference between the way magicians romance the lives of people who cheat at gambling, while simultaneously condemning palm readers or someone who can bend a spoon and claim that it's a real power and get paid for that.

Well, anyone ...

Good point, and I think it is simply a personal ethical line.

I'm not sure the link between gambling interest and disdain of fake psychics is that accurate.

Gamblers and their lore interest magicians, crooked gamblers lied by hiding a skill and taking money from marks.

Mr Geller et al lie by hiding a skill and taking money from marks.

What's the difference?

I guess people, in this age of the death of the church, are desperate for something, anything to live their life by. Any kind of guidance. If that is tea leaves, or crystals, or tarot, or anything that helps them through, will work for them. They are vulnerable people asking for a bit of guidance.

I think Mr Geller and his type prey on these more vulnerable and lonely people and expertly extract money from them by lying.

And, yes, I suppose crooked gamblers prey on the vulnerable and lie about their skills and extract money from them.

So in one post I've actually persuaded myself you're right.

However, I think that both crooked gamblers and crooked psychics have crossed a moral line. Although it is a tiny fee compared to many of the professionals reading this, I think getting 250 an hour for doing magic at an event is fair. My audiences don't think I'm really a magician. I do an act, they enjoy it, I get paid and leave. And I can sleep at night.

I don't think my sleep would be so good if I was a gambler or pretending I had powers I don't have.

[Michael Kamen]

No problem about being off topic. I frequently go OT myself.

Part of what Geller will lecture about is how to achieve what he has.

It seems to me that there's a real interesting difference between the way magicians romance the lives of people who cheat at gambling, while simultaneously condemning palm readers or someone who can bend a spoon and claim that it's a real power and get paid for that.

Well, anyone ...

Interesting point. When I was a child magician, I entertained romantic notions about such people. This was probably through the influence of some of my elders who, despite their skills and contributions to magic craft, were generally poor role models for a young man. Maybe, it was due only to my own failing. Be that as it may, I outgrew it. I think most of us do.

A charlatan cheats his clients or associates, by delivering fake goods. I do not admire that in a banker or a card player.

The technology of deception is another thing, and is to the magician as the knife is to the bread -- rather different than for the street mugger.

[Randy Naviaux]

No problem about being off topic. I frequently go OT myself.

Part of what Geller will lecture about is how to achieve what he has.

It seems to me that there's a real interesting difference between the way magicians romance the lives of people who cheat at gambling, while simultaneously condemning palm readers or someone who can bend a spoon and claim that it's a real power and get paid for that.

Well, anyone ...

Interesting point. I wonder how much of an influence Vernon had on this 'almost' hero worshiping of a real card cheat. Or if this predilection would have existed if Vernon hadn't come along.

A look at the Cafe's posts in the Gambling Spot sure makes me wonder about this. Wouldn't a palm reader (cold reader) actually be in a different class than a card cheat? Services have been rendered in exchange for money where as the card cheat is not providing a service in exchange for money. (Or maybe he is...guess it depends on your viewpoint.)

Best,

Randy

[Richard Kaufman]

If there's a line that's been crossed, then why is one group idolized and romanticized by magicians, while the other is despised?

Now let's look at it from the point of view of the "victim." The gambler never claims special powers--there's no entertainment of any kind. You just get the crap cheated out of you and your money STOLEN.

The psychic is WILLINGLY paid by customer, and receives something (albeit false) in return. But the customer has paid willingly, and receives some sort of entertainment, or whatever you want to call it.

I think there's a big difference: gamblers involuntarily part you from your money; psychics voluntarily part you from your money.

In Orlando, only I will part you from your money. :) And you know what you'll be getting.

[erdnasephile]

Interesting point. I wonder how much of an influence Vernon had on this 'almost' hero worshiping of a real card cheat. Or if this predilection would have existed if Vernon hadn't come along.

I think that people are often innately fascinated by the rogue elements in society who seem to be getting away with something and/or doing things we sometimes wish we could do--sort of a romanticized fantasy fulfillment for the law-abiding majority.

Needless to say, that fascination quickly comes to an end if you ever become a tragic victim of such people.

[Tim Ellis]

"It seems to me that there's a real interesting difference between the way magicians romance the lives of people who cheat at gambling, while simultaneously condemning palm readers or someone who can bend a spoon and claim that it's a real power and get paid for that."

Perhaps comparing fake psychics with card cheats is apples and oranges.

Maybe a better comparison to a fake psychic would be the magic dealer who promises a particular product then, when the victim voluntarily gives him their money, he gives them something else or perhaps even nothing at all. He becomes famous very quickly too.

[Richard Kaufman]

Oh, I don't think it's apples and oranges at all. What I think is that you're missing the point and magicians who embrace and romanticize one while condemning the other are hypocrites on this issue.

[mrgoat]

Good job I dislike crooked gamblers as well as lying fake psychics equally then.

[Brad Jeffers]

Uri Geller is the best at what he does. And just what is that? Some may say he's a "lying fake psychic". If that's the case, then he's the best of all the lying fake psychics out there.
I view it differently. I see Geller as a performance artist, who has created the character of a man who has psychic abilities. One of the strongest aspects of his performance, is his refusal to break character. If he were to admit to just being a guy doing magic tricks (a lying fake magician), it would ruin the performance. I know what he's doing ... you know what he's doing ... but for those who believe it's real, this is a very strong performance piece.
Now, as for taking the performance outside of the realm of theater, that is, using peoples belief in his psychic abilities to separate them from their money, that's a different issue. I have heard mention of these kind of activities, and would be interested as to the extent of such. I don't think selling crystals on QVC is a bad thing, but the Zanex Mining Company incident mentioned by Tim Ellis is another story.
Anyway, I admire Geller for what he has accomplished as a performance artist, and I think his lecture has the potential to be a highlight of the Genii event.

[Chas Nigh]

I saw Uri back in the mid eighties in San Francisco. He was a good looking guy with a lot of energy and women were going gaga. I call it marketing genius. Case closed.

[mrgoat]

I call it lying and duping people.

Tomaytoes tomatoes I guess...