L&L Publishing eBooks

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Re: L&L Publishing eBooks

Postby IrishMagicNews » May 10th, 2012, 3:10 pm

You'd think it was on purpose ... or maybe he is reading this thread but...

NY Times Tech columnist and amateur magician David Pogue filed a post today. Tweeting about he said "My Times post today: The TRUTH about ebook incompatibilities!"

http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/ ... 2_20120510
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Re: L&L Publishing eBooks

Postby Ted M » May 10th, 2012, 3:57 pm

Instead of being variations on Document Export formats, if these were Marlovian variations on Turning Over the Top Card, all you people would be revelling in this.

More ways to do it! YES!

...and then you can save it as a PDF!
...and then you can save it as an EPUB!
...and then you can click with your fourth finger to save it as a...

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Re: L&L Publishing eBooks

Postby mrgoat » May 11th, 2012, 3:35 am

Matthew Field wrote:Damian -- the incremental cost of an EPUB version may be nil,


Indeed it is. Thanks.

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Re: L&L Publishing eBooks

Postby Mark Tams » May 11th, 2012, 7:21 am

Gary Plants wrote:When contracts were set up with magicians to do books (Elmsley, Williamson, Takagi, Jennings and others), were agreements made to allow for pdf-ebooks to be produced? Will those estates/family's reap some of the profits from the sales of these files?

Just curious?



This is a GREAT question!

I have to say that I'm different here. I actually hate to see this. As I write this, I look over at my library that has been built over the last 30+ years. I was so heavily influenced with Richard's work in my beginning years. My books have become a part of my fabric. They have been and will continue to be a part of me. It's not necessarily the "value" they hold . . . although many do . . . but to see some of these books that are very difficult to obtain now easily be accessed. It's just a weird feeling for me.

But more importantly, to know that these books are already being passed around through email and torrent sites gives me a sinking feeling in my gut. That part alone devalues what I look over at and am proud to own.

I guess "times are a changing" :cry:

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Re: L&L Publishing eBooks

Postby LL Publishing » May 11th, 2012, 8:12 am

We've added two more titles to the website:

Compiled by Lewis Ganson

The Art of Close-Up Magic, Vol. 1

The Art of Close-Up Magic, Vol. 2
L&L Publishing - www.llpub.com
L&L ePublishing - www.llepub.com
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Re: L&L Publishing eBooks

Postby LL Publishing » May 17th, 2012, 8:27 pm

L&L Publishing - www.llpub.com

L&L ePublishing - www.llepub.com

Follow us on Twitter @LLPublishing


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Re: L&L Publishing eBooks

Postby LL Publishing » May 17th, 2012, 9:31 pm

Gary,

Thanks for the heads up. I had some ftp issues and a couple of files didn't upload correctly. It's been corrected and I've sent you an email with info on getting the file.
L&L Publishing - www.llpub.com

L&L ePublishing - www.llepub.com

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Re: L&L Publishing eBooks

Postby WillJames » May 17th, 2012, 10:51 pm

mrgoat wrote:
Jim Riser wrote:Your concept of time being worth nothing displays a total lack of understanding of the complete situation.


I completely understand how pressing EXPORT TO EPUB takes as good as no time. So I feel I understand the situation more than you seem to. Do feel free to (try and) explain how pressing EXPORT TO EPUB is a cost centre.



I don't think there's any need for people to attack each other, but surely there can be orderly, mature discussion and debate.

Mr.Goat has posted a legitimate question here and I'd like to hear Mr. Riser's response.

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Re: L&L Publishing eBooks

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 18th, 2012, 12:07 am

The value of an ebook is never 0, because as much work goes into producing the initial book from which the ebook is made as would go into producing the ebook if that was the only form in which the book was ever going to be produced.

The cost of my time in writing and illustrating CoinMagic, for example, was a lot--that book took years of work. Just because there is no physical book to hold with an ebook of CoinMagic, doesn't mean that it cost me any less, or took any shorter portion of my life, to collect the material, write it, illustrate it, and lay it out.

If I were to physically reprint CoinMagic, the "cost" of each reprinted book is NEVER simply the dollar amount the printer charges me divided by the number of books printed. That cost is the least of the investment in the product, and that investment remains absolutely the same no matter what format the book is delivered in. No matter how many copies I sell, whether it's a physical printed book or an ebook, I will never pay for my time in writing, illustrating, and laying out that book. Thus the cost is never 0.
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Re: L&L Publishing eBooks

Postby mrgoat » May 18th, 2012, 4:50 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:The value of an ebook is never 0


No one said it was.

In the past, you would write, edit, illustrate and layout a book. Publish it. Job done. You had the cost of making it vs the revenue you took.

Now, you can magically make another format of the book for nothing, with a totally different market to sell to. It's a gimme.

1) People that are collectors
2) People that want the information and don't collect

You can suddenly sell the exact same product to a totally separate audience, not damaging your initial sales at all for a cost of zero.

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Re: L&L Publishing eBooks

Postby El Mystico » May 18th, 2012, 6:05 am

To me, while technically mrgoat is right about the near zero time to press the button, I think there are other issues involved.

And I think they are mainly to do with the price you sell the ebook to the public.

If it were commonly thought that the cost of making the ebook was virtually zero, there would be a major backlash against publishers trying to sell the book at a level which would give them the same profit (or more) as the "real" version.

Does this matter? Yes, and one of the reasons why it does is because I think mrgoat is being simplistic in identifying two different markets (collectors v info seekers) to sell to. For example, I'm hugely looking forward to the forthcoming Jennings book, and intend to buy the physical product. But if there were a ebook version at a fraction of the price, it would be crazy for me not to consider buying it. The two markets are not separate. So it would be crazy for the publisher to sell the ebook cheaply on the basis that it cost very almost nothing to produce.

Earlier Matt talked about the amortised cost, and I think that is the sensible way to think of these things.

It is a little bit like saying that the biggest cost in publishing is the cost of producing the first copy. In a sense it is true - you could put all the costs of writing, illustrating, editing etc into that first copy. And say the cost of producing all subsequent copies is a lot less, because all thee writing has been done. (And this really is true - it is how mass publishing works) But it isn't a helpful way to think about publishing, because it leads to the idea that the subsequent copies should be sold for less.

I don't think that's what mrgoat intends, but I think it might be the reason people are arguing with him.

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Re: L&L Publishing eBooks

Postby mrgoat » May 18th, 2012, 6:18 am

El Mystico wrote:To me, while technically mrgoat is right about the near zero time to press the button, I think there are other issues involved.

And I think they are mainly to do with the price you sell the ebook to the public.

If it were commonly thought that the cost of making the ebook was virtually zero, there would be a major backlash against publishers trying to sell the book at a level which would give them the same profit (or more) as the "real" version.


There *is* a huge backlash. There is a massive case about the publishers illegally price fixing.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/au ... -macmillan

http://www.amazon.com/forum/price/Tx1GK235T40IPJ2

El Mystico wrote:Does this matter? Yes, and one of the reasons why it does is because I think mrgoat is being simplistic in identifying two different markets (collectors v info seekers) to sell to. For example, I'm hugely looking forward to the forthcoming Jennings book, and intend to buy the physical product. But if there were a ebook version at a fraction of the price, it would be crazy for me not to consider buying it. The two markets are not separate. So it would be crazy for the publisher to sell the ebook cheaply on the basis that it cost very almost nothing to produce.


Opinions are great. I'd defend to the death your right to believe what you think is right. Here are some facts that show I am right.

http://radar.oreilly.com/2009/08/does-d ... ikely.html

and that is from a technical book publisher of very big and heavy text books for geeks. Exactly the sort of publisher who would have been canabalized by ebook sales, if such a phenomenon existed.

El Mystico wrote:It is a little bit like saying that the biggest cost in publishing is the cost of producing the first copy.


It is. :)

El Mystico wrote:
In a sense it is true - you could put all the costs of writing, illustrating, editing etc into that first copy. And say the cost of producing all subsequent copies is a lot less, because all thee writing has been done. (And this really is true - it is how mass publishing works) But it isn't a helpful way to think about publishing, because it leads to the idea that the subsequent copies should be sold for less.


I think they should be sold for whatever the market will stand. Never suggested they should be sold for less. Nor did anyone in this thread.

El Mystico wrote:I don't think that's what mrgoat intends, but I think it might be the reason people are arguing with him.


It's a simple fact. The secondary format costs literally nothing. Any revenue that can be made from it is all gravy.

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Re: L&L Publishing eBooks

Postby El Mystico » May 18th, 2012, 7:00 am

mrgoat, I don't think we're in a hugely different place, but I have to dispute the O'Reilly analysis.
Their ebook sales are up, their print sales are down.
How is this not people buying ebooks instead of print?
Ok, so their print share of the market is holding up.
But that just means that everyone is suffering the same thing.

(I am absolutely not saying this is a reason not to sell ebooks).

by the way - you keep telling people you'll fight to the death for their right to state their opinion. How come you're still around?

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Re: L&L Publishing eBooks

Postby mrgoat » May 18th, 2012, 8:00 am

El Mystico wrote:mrgoat, I don't think we're in a hugely different place, but I have to dispute the O'Reilly analysis.
Their ebook sales are up, their print sales are down.
How is this not people buying ebooks instead of print?
Ok, so their print share of the market is holding up.
But that just means that everyone is suffering the same thing.


They say in the article

"By looking at the data and these charts we infer that while O'Reilly physical book sales are down compared to last year, this seems more the result of the drop in demand for computer books since the financial meltdown than the impact of ebook sales. Since O'Reilly is a relatively prolific publisher of econtent we would expect that ebooks would affect O'Reilly's physical book sales more than other publishers and we don't see that evidence in these results. Even if ebooks are taking a bite out of O'Reilly physical book sales, we see no negative effect on O'Reilly's slightly increasing share in the physical book market nor on how O'Reilly's sales correlate with the overall market for physical computer books."

El Mystico wrote:
by the way - you keep telling people you'll fight to the death for their right to state their opinion. How come you're still around?


Luckily no one has actually asked me to fight to the death.

The point of the expression is that with discussions online people seem to get awfully riled by someone having the audacity to have a differing opinion on something. I think it is everyone's right to have any opinion on anything they want. You, as a statistician, may interpret the O'Reily results in a different way to O'Reily themselves. And that is just fine.

Some people need to realise that a discussion of a point isn't personal and is usually subjective opinion.

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Re: L&L Publishing eBooks

Postby El Mystico » May 18th, 2012, 8:31 am

Yes, I read their article.
Their inference is wrong.
They say the drop in physical sales is a result of the financial meltdown.
If the financial meltdown was the sole cause of the drop in sales, then ebook sales would be down too.
But ebook sales are up. A lot.

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Re: L&L Publishing eBooks

Postby mrgoat » May 18th, 2012, 9:08 am


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Re: L&L Publishing eBooks

Postby El Mystico » May 18th, 2012, 9:22 am

I don't see that the Lulu example helps, Lulu is such a different model, and besides, as Nate Hoffelder says in your link, Lulu have left out ssome key details, making it impossible to judge the real position.

The Teleread link, however, makes my point perfectly, thanks.

My point was that if you sell ebooks at a price point that comes anywhere close to reflecting your "Zero production cost" position, canibalisation is pretty much guaranteed, and the publisher makes no profit.
5.99 though ('not inexpensive' - Meadows) makes the publisher a good profit, and apparently canibalisation has not happened. Although, as Meadows says, "theres no way to know whether the print book might have sold even better if cheap e-books hadnt stolen some of its audience."

Do you think those links got it wrong?

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Re: L&L Publishing eBooks

Postby mrgoat » May 18th, 2012, 9:27 am

Oh sorry, I misunderstood that there was a caveat in your original point.

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Re: L&L Publishing eBooks

Postby El Mystico » May 18th, 2012, 9:34 am

Not a caveat, but the main point:

El Mystico wrote:I think there are other issues involved.

And I think they are mainly to do with the price you sell the ebook to the public.



But glad we seem to be in the same area!

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Re: L&L Publishing eBooks

Postby mrgoat » May 18th, 2012, 9:45 am

I don't actually *read* posts. I just skim them and then post sarcastic replies. Are you new here?

:)

But yes, we do seem to be in the same area. Wanna make out?

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Re: L&L Publishing eBooks

Postby El Mystico » May 18th, 2012, 10:24 am

Sorry, I don't 'do' goats.

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Re: L&L Publishing eBooks

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 18th, 2012, 10:26 am

I'm happy to announce that Damian has agreed to strip down to his skivies and take on all comers in a bout of mud wrestling to be held at the Genii convention in Orlando. :)
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Re: L&L Publishing eBooks

Postby mrgoat » May 18th, 2012, 10:44 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:I'm happy to announce that Damian has agreed to strip down to his skivies and take on all comers in a bout of mud wrestling to be held at the Genii convention in Orlando. :)



Alright, alright, but I want the rights to the streaming and ebook.

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Re: L&L Publishing eBooks

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 18th, 2012, 10:57 am

Streaming rights negotiated!
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Re: L&L Publishing eBooks

Postby mrgoat » May 18th, 2012, 11:41 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:Streaming rights negotiated!


If you've sold them to L&L I'm gonna be pissed.

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Re: L&L Publishing eBooks

Postby El Mystico » May 18th, 2012, 11:51 am

I wouldn't get hung up over it; I'll get the video on a torrent within 24 hours.

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Re: L&L Publishing eBooks

Postby mrgoat » May 18th, 2012, 12:05 pm

El Mystico wrote:I wouldn't get hung up over it; I'll get the video on a torrent within 24 hours.


Thing is, something has to be worth seeing to pirate it. Hence you can find no torrents of GB's shuffling masterclass DVDs.

So I think I'll be safe!

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Re: L&L Publishing eBooks

Postby Q. Kumber » May 18th, 2012, 12:07 pm

Steaming rights or Streaming rights?

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Re: L&L Publishing eBooks

Postby mrgoat » May 18th, 2012, 12:28 pm

Q. Kumber wrote:Steaming rights or Streaming rights?


Oh matron.

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Re: L&L Publishing eBooks

Postby Jonathan Townsend » May 18th, 2012, 12:52 pm

El Mystico wrote:I wouldn't get hung up over it; I'll get the video on a torrent within 24 hours.


The market runs on courtesy. Those who care about such things will purchase from what they feel is the most supportive supplier. Those who buy commodities (novelty etc) will buy from distributers. Those who just want to look... not sure what to say.

I'm happy to see a link to a place where folks can buy the manuscripts for Card Warp and Cascade. I'd buy them direct from Walton if he was selling. But at least this way there's a place to point newbies to the original works. And that - IMHO is what grows the market in the long run.

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Re: L&L Publishing eBooks

Postby LL Publishing » May 22nd, 2012, 8:17 am

Continuing the conversation from the Cups & Balls thread, here are some responses:

mrgoat wrote:What's the benefit of having a separate site?

You could have gone with something that would have helped SEO, ebooksformagicians.com for example, is available. Or just llpub.com/ebooks.


We wanted to keep the two sites independent of each other. One reason is payment processing. We have PayPal on the ebook site since it's a popular way for a lot magicians to buy, not only on magic retail sites, but also from individuals in private transactions. We don't accept PayPal at LLPub.com

One reason for this is we never charge a credit card unless we can ship that day. We've always had this policy and with recent events with another magic dealer, it's more important than ever to keep this practice.

When shopping at other dealers to test out buying real & downloadable products in the same transaction there was always a delay in receiving the download. We wanted to keep it clean and simple.

Regarding SEO, a domain name is only part of the overall SEO equation and not our biggest priority. As it was there was confusion with some people if the site was legitimate or someone just selling pirated scans of our books

As this is being written, we still haven't officially launched the site. We were going to wait until all the titles were completed. However Google found it and our first customers found us through a Google search.

Ian Kendall wrote:
mrqoat wrote:"So what does L&L E-Publishing plan to sell on the domain that isn't ebooks?"


I'm guessing we'll see video downloads in the not too distant future...


We're not sure what else we're going to be doing. Michael Ammar is already featuring video downloads on his site with The Easy To Master series.

Murphy's Magic has taken all of our DVDs and has a streaming service available to all of their dealers. This service hasn't received a lot of attention. If you haven't heard of it, you can buy the video as a streaming video instead of a DVD. We don't offer that on either of our sites.

mrgoat wrote:
LL Publishing wrote:We addressed the formatting issue in another thread when we announced the the new site. Here's what Richard had to say when someone asked about the epub format:


Yes you did. You don't want to spend any money formatting it properly when you can just scan it and sell it with no extra work thus making you even more money for hardly any effort.

Fits in well with the current L&L model.


So why the insult to us and to Richard Kaufman? He's doing what we're doing. We agree with Jim Riser, that epub is not the best solution for these books.

Jim Riser wrote:Goat,
Why do you not assemble a short 5 page epub with 12 jpgs nicely formatted to run on multiple devices and platforms to show all of us how easy it is? Pics need to be an appropriate size for each page on all devices. Put your superior skills and knowledge into something we can all test on our devices. One epub for all devices as can be done with PDF. Show all of us that you are right. I would love to be shown that I am incorrect about epub. Since it is so easy, it should not take you too long - an hour ought to do it.

We await your simple project.
Jim


We would also like to see this. If there is a better way and you can show us, please do. We are always looking to improve. You seem to have a real grasp of the epub format, especially when it comes to formatting magic books. Show us what's possible.
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Re: L&L Publishing eBooks

Postby Kevin Connolly » May 22nd, 2012, 8:25 am

And don't forget to charge something for your efforts. :)

Accept cash over being paid in books. :)
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Re: L&L Publishing eBooks

Postby mrgoat » May 22nd, 2012, 10:09 am

LL Publishing wrote:Continuing the conversation from the Cups & Balls thread, here are some responses:

mrgoat wrote:What's the benefit of having a separate site?

You could have gone with something that would have helped SEO, ebooksformagicians.com for example, is available. Or just llpub.com/ebooks.


We wanted to keep the two sites independent of each other. One reason is payment processing.


You can have two separate zencart installs on a domain or subdomain, each taking whatever processing method you prefer. Seems odd to not want to have one site where you can focus your online marketing efforts.

I can't think of any other business where a company would make a different domain to sell something else it makes that is targeted at the same audience, but if it is working for you, then that's super.


LL Publishing wrote:Regarding SEO, a domain name is only part of the overall SEO equation and not our biggest priority.


Interesting. Most SEO experts would say that the domain is the single most important factor.

LL Publishing wrote: As it was there was confusion with some people if the site was legitimate or someone just selling pirated scans of our books


Maybe if you had them on the same site as the rest of your products such fears would be allayed?

LL Publishing wrote:
mrgoat wrote:
LL Publishing wrote:We addressed the formatting issue in another thread when we announced the the new site. Here's what Richard had to say when someone asked about the epub format:


Yes you did. You don't want to spend any money formatting it properly when you can just scan it and sell it with no extra work thus making you even more money for hardly any effort.

Fits in well with the current L&L model.


So why the insult to us and to Richard Kaufman?


I'm not insulting you. I'm stating what I believe to be the business decision behind sticking to a bloated, not easy to read format. Not everything is personal, Stove.

LL Publishing wrote:We agree with Jim Riser, that epub is not the best solution for these books.


Jim's wrong. As are you. Hopefully the video I posted educated you as to what is possibly with EPUB 3.

Getting an intern to scan a book into PDF is the cheapest way of doing it. But it's unarguably not the best method of making a book that is lovely to look at and easy to read.

LL Publishing wrote:If there is a better way and you can show us, please do.


I posted a link to a video showing what EPUB 3 does. Did you not see it?

LL Publishing wrote:We are always looking to improve. You seem to have a real grasp of the epub format, especially when it comes to formatting magic books. Show us what's possible.


I produce adult content. Happy to show you what I am doing there if you like but it will obviously involve sending you explicit porn. I doubt RK wants me posting it here, but I'll send it to you in return for a small consultancy fee.

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Re: L&L Publishing eBooks

Postby LL Publishing » May 22nd, 2012, 11:35 am

mrgoat wrote:
Interesting. Most SEO experts would say that the domain is the single most important factor.



If that were true, then using the search term "magic ebooks", magicebooks.com would out rank every site. But it doesn't even appear on the first page. magic-ebooks.com does appear on the first page, but it's under lybrary.com (positions 1 & 2), FreeMagicTricks4U.com, Trickshop.com, & TomStone.se

The top 5 listings on the first page don't even have the word "ebooks" in the domain name.

Relevant content, page titles, backlinks, you know all the other SEO stuff can outweigh the URL.

We went for branding. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with a keyword domain. It works, but it's not the most important factor.

Here's what Matt Cutts from Google says about it (3 minute video):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rAWFv43qubI#!

What Cutts says is true in my example above. Lybrary.com doesn't say "magic ebooks" in the domain name, but Chris Wasshuber has done a fantastic job branding it as such. He has a lot of backlinks and certainly a ton of content.
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Re: L&L Publishing eBooks

Postby mrgoat » May 22nd, 2012, 11:48 am

LL Publishing wrote:
mrgoat wrote:
Interesting. Most SEO experts would say that the domain is the single most important factor.


LL Publishing wrote:If that were true, then using the search term "magic ebooks", magicebooks.com would out rank every site. But it doesn't even appear on the first page. magic-ebooks.com does appear on the first page, but it's under lybrary.com (positions 1 & 2), FreeMagicTricks4U.com, Trickshop.com, & TomStone.se


So in the top 5, there are 2 sites with keyword domains and yet you still think it's not that important?

So what is the single most important factor if that is wrong? I love to learn about this stuff.

LL Publishing wrote:We went for branding.


Was LandL.com unavailable then? :(

Ted M
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Re: L&L Publishing eBooks

Postby Ted M » May 22nd, 2012, 12:36 pm

Why in the world should customers argue with a business about its domain name not being optimally chosen?

Maybe we could argue about the wallpaint colors in the L&L offices too?

Or the height of the chairs their employees sit on?

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Re: L&L Publishing eBooks

Postby LL Publishing » May 22nd, 2012, 1:16 pm

In the top 5, there are no domains that are keyword domains. It's the 6th one. Hey, it's the top 10, so no complaints there! However in the top 10, it's the only domain name that has keywords.

LandL.com has not been available for years.

I don't think there is a single most important factor. It depends on the industry and the website.

In our case no one else will be selling these ebooks, so if you want any of these titles, you have to come to us to buy them. Yes there is competition with magic ebooks in general, but each publisher will be selling their own titles. In that scenario it's important to let customers know the ebooks are available. More sales will be generated from mailing lists, magic forums and social media rather than SEO.

Your recommendation for keyword domain names does have strong SEO weight in other situations. For magicians, especially performing at a local and regional level, a keyword domain name is very beneficial.

If I were consulting a magician on SEO, this is what I would recommend. As an example the magician is in Kansas City. I would find several domain names - KansasCityMagician.com Kansas-City-Magician.com, KCMagician.com (using a local abbreviation). If that magician specialized in specific shows, then add that to the mix - KansasCityWeddingMagician.com KansasCityWeddingEntertainer.com, etc. Make sure each domain name is registered for more than a year.

Done right, you can dominate with that if you add in other SEO techniques - make sure your page titles are optimized with keywords, content - keyword-rich headlines, optimized site copy, alt tags for your images.

Host the sites with different hosting companies. Find sites that have authority with Google and have them link to your site. Make sure the anchor text in the link is optimized and not just "click here".

The difference between the two examples is that we are already known. We just need to inform everyone that we now sell ebooks and give people an easy URL. With the local magician, he's not known. No one is searching for him, but they are searching for the service.
L&L Publishing - www.llpub.com

L&L ePublishing - www.llepub.com

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Re: L&L Publishing eBooks

Postby mrgoat » May 22nd, 2012, 4:04 pm

LL Publishing wrote:I don't think there is a single most important factor.


Oh right, I assumed you thought there was one, as you told me the domain name wasn't the single most important factor.

Never mind.

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Re: L&L Publishing eBooks

Postby El Mystico » May 23rd, 2012, 3:57 pm

What a silly assumption!
To say something isn't the most important factor doesn't say there is one most immportant factor. Do you not reed these mails propperly?

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Re: L&L Publishing eBooks

Postby LL Publishing » May 25th, 2012, 5:50 pm

The Collected Works of Alex Elmsley are now available:

Volume 1 - http://goo.gl/4OZ9c

Volume 2 - http://goo.gl/kBlNX

They are $19.95 each.
L&L Publishing - www.llpub.com

L&L ePublishing - www.llepub.com

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