Castle notebooks for sale again

Discuss the latest news and rumors in the magic world.
Brian Hebert
Posts: 48
Joined: August 3rd, 2008, 7:18 pm
Location: nova scotia

Castle notebooks for sale again

Postby Brian Hebert » March 8th, 2012, 7:36 pm

I just received an email from L&L publishing stating that they have
Additional copies of the castle notebooks that they
Are selling for 25% off.

Am I wrong in thinking that there is something
wrong about this. They state that they are
over-run copies, but that to me doesn't matter.
I believe we were told that there would be only a
limited number sold.

I may be not seeing this in the right light but I believe
they made enough money off of the notebooks and they
shouldn't be selling the information in any way.

Any thoughts?

Brian

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 27055
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: Castle notebooks for sale again

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 8th, 2012, 7:45 pm

They're probably not selling copies of volume 1.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

Terry
Posts: 1303
Joined: January 18th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Kentucky

Re: Castle notebooks for sale again

Postby Terry » March 8th, 2012, 8:17 pm

Wasn't it limited number of sets being sold?

User avatar
Dustin Stinett
Posts: 7257
Joined: July 22nd, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Sometimes
Location: Southern California
Contact:

Re: Castle notebooks for sale again

Postby Dustin Stinett » March 8th, 2012, 8:35 pm

I think it was a blunder to make the books limited in the first place. I see no problem with selling limited "deluxe" editions, but in general limits are, well, limiting.

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 27055
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: Castle notebooks for sale again

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 8th, 2012, 9:14 pm

Creating an artificial limit can cause a stampede mentality in the buyers. It worked for the few book. The others are out there and you can, I think, pay less than the original retail.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

Jim Martin
Posts: 551
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: St. Louis

Re: Castle notebooks for sale again

Postby Jim Martin » March 8th, 2012, 9:50 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:They're probably not selling copies of volume 1.
Nor Volume 3, apparently.
Jim Martin
St. Louis MO

User avatar
Joe Naud
Posts: 338
Joined: March 11th, 2008, 10:27 pm
Favorite Magician: Vernon, Tamariz, Carney, DaOrtiz, Mac King
Location: Southern California

Re: Castle notebooks for sale again

Postby Joe Naud » March 8th, 2012, 11:33 pm

3,4 and 5 are available on Ebay right now for 49.99 but they are not signed. These copies have been going for less than $100 each as there have been multiple listings of late.
Peace, Joe

JimW
Posts: 70
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: Castle notebooks for sale again

Postby JimW » March 9th, 2012, 2:58 am

None of the books were signed, but they were numbered. The copies L&L are selling now are not numbered. Here is the description of the books from today's email. They are listed as "Publisher's Comp & Overrun Sale"

This sale entails a very limited supply of publisher's overruns and comps that are not numbered like the original limited editions but contain the exact same material. These overruns were made to compensate for any possible defect or damage in the limited edition run of 500.

Volumes 2, 4 and 5 only. Volumes 1 and 3 are not available.

User avatar
Gary Kosnitzky
Posts: 254
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Vazhakunnam Neelakanthan Namboothiri
Contact:

Re: Castle notebooks for sale again

Postby Gary Kosnitzky » March 9th, 2012, 10:00 am

Joe Naud wrote:3,4 and 5 are available on Ebay right now for 49.99 but they are not signed. These copies have been going for less than $100 each as there have been multiple listings of late.
Peace, Joe


Joe,
You are absolutely incorrect.
3,4, and 5 are not selling for 49.99.
There are no 'Buy It Now' options.
When the auction is over there will be a final price and I am sure it will not be 49.99.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=BRU ... 97.c0.m627

I also see 4 and 5 selling for $650.00.

User avatar
erdnasephile
Posts: 4770
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm

Re: Castle notebooks for sale again

Postby erdnasephile » March 9th, 2012, 2:00 pm

It's curious that Volume 1 sold so many, while many more copies of the subsequent volumes are apparently out there on the market. Sounds like either 1) readers didn't find volume 1 compelling enough to complete the set, 2) the volume 1 folks ran out of $$ or 3) the completists finally got their OCD treated.

If L and L pubished the proposed commentary on the set, I'll bet the remaning stock would be snapped up right quick.

User avatar
Matthew Field
Posts: 2846
Joined: January 18th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Slydini
Location: Hastings, England, UK

Re: Castle notebooks for sale again

Postby Matthew Field » March 10th, 2012, 4:40 am

Multi-volume (magic) books typically show declining sales for each subsquent volume in the series.

I originally proposed making "Magic Page by Page" a two volume series but everyone, from Pat Page to Charles Reynolds to Richard Kaufman convinced me it was the wrong way to go.

Matt Field

Ian Kendall
Posts: 2631
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Edinburgh
Contact:

Re: Castle notebooks for sale again

Postby Ian Kendall » March 10th, 2012, 4:47 am

Two volume sets that come out at the same time seem to be doing okay? The Wonder and Victor books spring to mind...

The Page book is (ironically) _just_ too tall for my bookshelf, and has to be kept in a different part of the house :(

Joneseymagic
Posts: 43
Joined: June 3rd, 2008, 7:50 pm

Re: Castle notebooks for sale again

Postby Joneseymagic » March 10th, 2012, 4:59 am

You could look at it the other way round. Rather than the series not being compelling, the people who purchased vol 1 are holding onto it ( and maybe the others in the set) while those who missed out on vol 1 are selling their later volumes because it's now difficult to obtain the first and thus complete their set.

I think the declining sales can be accounted for by the fact that Cervon mentions in the Lost Inner Secrets that the Vernon material appears mainly in the early notebooks, while the later books contains mainly Cervon's work.

I only wanted the Vernon stuff, so I only purchased the first three books. Perhaps others felt the same?

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 27055
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: Castle notebooks for sale again

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 10th, 2012, 11:21 am

It's also possible that the mystique of the Castle Notebooks had been built up by Cervon to such an extent that those who purchased the first one felt an almost inevitable letdown and didn't purchase the rest.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

User avatar
erdnasephile
Posts: 4770
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm

Re: Castle notebooks for sale again

Postby erdnasephile » March 10th, 2012, 12:04 pm

Good points, all!

I think that when a book has both a high mystique and price it puts a lot of pressure on the books contents to be "worth it" to the average buyer.

I suspect that once people figured out that these were scanned copies of the notebooks, and that many (but not all) of the gems had already seen print elsewhere, they lost enthusiasm for spending that next $800. (FWIW, I stuck it out throughout the entire set.)

It would be interesting to compare the sales figures from Card College (the polar opposite to the CN's) to see if there was a corresponding drop off in sales.

El Mystico
Posts: 1087
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Leamington Spa
Contact:

Re: Castle notebooks for sale again

Postby El Mystico » March 10th, 2012, 12:20 pm

I'm sure some people did feel that scanned and sometimes crypic notes were not helpful to them. And as Richard has mentioned elsewhere, lots of the moves were described in barebones only.
I think to really appreciate what was in the books, you had to be pretty familiar already with the published work of Vernon, Jennings, Cervon etc. Then you were in a much better position to join the dots. So that was going to severely limit the target audience.
Personally, I love the books. But I completely understand why they weren't to the taste of the general magician.

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 27055
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: Castle notebooks for sale again

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 10th, 2012, 1:11 pm

The Card College series is the best-selling set of books around the world published in the last 20 years. No doubt.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

User avatar
Steve Bryant
Posts: 1947
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Ballantine
Location: Bloomington IN
Contact:

Re: Castle notebooks for sale again

Postby Steve Bryant » March 10th, 2012, 6:10 pm

I rarely dip into the Cervon Notebooks without being pleasantly surprised by some new move or ruse or complete routine, virtually always quite adequately described and/or illustrated (despite being outlandishly misspelled). But that isn't the real value. The notebooks are an amazing time machine, like nothing else in magic, that lets us know what was happening when in the early days of the Magic Castle. Too bad there isn't a similar record of the Marlo sessions or of that cafeteria in NYC. Indeed it would be comforting to know that someone is keeping a similar record today for future generations. Ah, what will our grandkids pay for the Dustin Stinett notebooks?

Joe Mckay
Posts: 2026
Joined: April 13th, 2008, 6:56 am
Favorite Magician: Lubor Fiedler
Location: Durham, England

Re: Castle notebooks for sale again

Postby Joe Mckay » March 10th, 2012, 6:15 pm

Didn't alot of the material from that 'cafeteria in NYC' end up in Apocalypse magazine? I forget the name of it but most of the material from Apocalyse seemed to be drawn from there.

But yeah I agree. I love digging through old notebooks as well...

Joe

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 27055
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: Castle notebooks for sale again

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 10th, 2012, 7:23 pm

Some of the material from the Governor Cafeteria time period went into Apocalypse. A lot of the coin magic went into my book CoinMagic. The Complete Works of Derek Dingle also has a lot of material from that time period. Karl Fulves's magazines of that era contain more.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

Joe Mckay
Posts: 2026
Joined: April 13th, 2008, 6:56 am
Favorite Magician: Lubor Fiedler
Location: Durham, England

Re: Castle notebooks for sale again

Postby Joe Mckay » March 10th, 2012, 7:38 pm

Did Karl Fulves hang out at the Governor Cafeteria? I always imagined him to be too underground to actually meet up with magicians regularly.

Joe

User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 27055
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: Castle notebooks for sale again

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 10th, 2012, 8:39 pm

Yes, Fulves did come to the Cafeteria on occasion, and he also came to Tannen's quite a bit. That's where I met him.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

Mark Jensen
Posts: 373
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Juan Tamariz
Location: Murphy, Texas
Contact:

Re: Castle notebooks for sale again

Postby Mark Jensen » March 12th, 2012, 6:34 pm

I've been talking to a few other people who purchased the entire 5 volume set and we are not happy about L&L and the recent offer of these "overrun" copies.

In particular:

1. They advertised each volume was to be a limited numbered edition of 500.

2. The copies they are selling are identical to our numbered copies, except they aren't numbered. As many have already stated, the numbering aspect of these books doesn't seem to be a big deal to collectors.

3. They are selling them for a substancially reduced price, which is impacting the value of the sets already sold. A complete set with matching numbers sold yesterday on Martinka for $801 + $120.15 + shipping, which is below the $200 per volume the books sold for.

Unhappy with L&L in Dallas,

Mark

The Magic Apple
Posts: 850
Joined: January 23rd, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Studio City, CA
Contact:

Re: Castle notebooks for sale again

Postby The Magic Apple » March 12th, 2012, 9:32 pm

ditto

This is bad business on ALL LEVELS!!!
TheMagicApple.com
818-508-9921
Follow us: @The_Magic_Apple

Ted M
Posts: 1187
Joined: January 24th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Dani DaOrtiz
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Castle notebooks for sale again

Postby Ted M » March 12th, 2012, 10:57 pm

If anyone aims to try to show that the overrun notebooks are affecting value on the secondary market, here's some data. Unfortunately except for vol 1, the books have already been bringing prices far below original retail. These are completed eBay sale values since Dec 20, 2011:

97.00 Vol 3, Dec 20

899.99 Set, vols 1-5, Jan 1 2012

141.50 Vol 2, Jan 19
143.50 Vol 3, Jan 26
152.50 Vol 4, Jan 26

346.00 Vol 1, Feb 1
97.01 Vol 2, Feb 1
65.00 Vol 3, Feb 1
93.00 Vol 4, Feb 1
102.50 Vol 5, Feb 1

77.00 Vol 2, Feb 23
72.91 Vol 3, Feb 23
70.00 Vol 5, Feb 23

762.06 Set, vols 1-5, Mar 1

102.50 Vol 3, Mar 9
98.99 Vol 4, Mar 9
98.99 Vol 5, Mar 9

I believe the overrun notebooks were announced March 10, so these would be the prices before the extra books entered the market.

User avatar
Gary Kosnitzky
Posts: 254
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Vazhakunnam Neelakanthan Namboothiri
Contact:

Re: Castle notebooks for sale again

Postby Gary Kosnitzky » March 12th, 2012, 11:36 pm

Mark Jensen wrote:I've been talking to a few other people who purchased the entire 5 volume set and we are not happy about L&L and the recent offer of these "overrun" copies.

In particular:

1. They advertised each volume was to be a limited numbered edition of 500.

2. The copies they are selling are identical to our numbered copies, except they aren't numbered. As many have already stated, the numbering aspect of these books doesn't seem to be a big deal to collectors.

3. They are selling them for a substancially reduced price, which is impacting the value of the sets already sold. A complete set with matching numbers sold yesterday on Martinka for $801 + $120.15 + shipping, which is below the $200 per volume the books sold for.

Unhappy with L&L in Dallas,

Mark



Hi Mark,

How are you?

I am not that smart, having dropped out of school at a very young age so I really don't know a lot about things of this nature.
I am confused, that's all.
I am not an attorney but may be an attorney out there may be able to briefly explain what has happened.

I personally believe L&L has too much integrity to have done anything wrong.I am not making any accusations nor even implying any.
I am just stating what I have read; on the inside cover of the books and some information I read.

It plainly states on the inside of every book-

COLLECTOR'S EDITION LIMITED TO 500 COPIES

Does the above statement imply that only 500 printings of the book will be released with the same design treatment?

Now that more than 500 books are being released did the statement "COLLECTOR'S EDITION LIMITED TO 500 COPIES" turn out to be a true statement or a false one?

Was anyone aware that more than 500 copies were to be released when they purchased the book?

Did buyers rely on the truth of the statement, "COLLECTOR'S EDITION LIMITED TO 500 COPIES", to base their decision to buy the book, since that statement connotes a level of scarcity or exclusivity ?

I also read that a limited edition book as defined by the standards of the industry is:

"A limited edition book is a description of a book which is released in a limited print run quantity, usually much smaller than publishing industry standards, and connotes a level of scarcity or exclusivity. The term also implies that no further additional printings of the book will be released with the same design treatment, unlike open-ended trade editions wherein further copies may be released in more print runs as the first printings are sold out."


Citing:

"Morlan v. Kelly, No. 2009-UP-002, SC Supreme Court, 2009". Judicial.state.sc.us.

"Schnellmann v. Roettger, 373 S.C. 379, 382, 645 S.E.2d 239, 241 (2007)". Judicial.state.sc.us. 2006-01-17.


Common law fraud has nine elements:
1.a representation of an existing fact;
2.its materiality;
3.its falsity;
4.the speaker's knowledge of its falsity;
5.the speaker's intent that it shall be acted upon by the plaintiff;
6.plaintiff's ignorance of its falsity;
7.plaintiff's reliance on the truth of the representation;
8.plaintiff's right to rely upon it; and
9.consequent damages suffered by plaintiff.

My question to anyone who knows the law is:
Has any laws been broken in this situation?

User avatar
Gary Kosnitzky
Posts: 254
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Vazhakunnam Neelakanthan Namboothiri
Contact:

Re: Castle notebooks for sale again

Postby Gary Kosnitzky » March 12th, 2012, 11:50 pm

Ted M wrote:If anyone aims to try to show that the overrun notebooks are affecting value on the secondary market, here's some data. Unfortunately except for vol 1, the books have already been bringing prices far below original retail. These are completed eBay sale values since Dec 20, 2011:

97.00 Vol 3, Dec 20

899.99 Set, vols 1-5, Jan 1 2012

141.50 Vol 2, Jan 19
143.50 Vol 3, Jan 26
152.50 Vol 4, Jan 26

346.00 Vol 1, Feb 1
97.01 Vol 2, Feb 1
65.00 Vol 3, Feb 1
93.00 Vol 4, Feb 1
102.50 Vol 5, Feb 1

77.00 Vol 2, Feb 23
72.91 Vol 3, Feb 23
70.00 Vol 5, Feb 23

762.06 Set, vols 1-5, Mar 1

102.50 Vol 3, Mar 9
98.99 Vol 4, Mar 9
98.99 Vol 5, Mar 9

I believe the overrun notebooks were announced March 10, so these would be the prices before the extra books entered the market.


The economy is affecting the value of all books on the secondary market not overrun books or the lack of.

Your post is white noise.

User avatar
Brad Jeffers
Posts: 1221
Joined: April 11th, 2008, 5:52 pm
Location: Savannah, GA

Re: Castle notebooks for sale again

Postby Brad Jeffers » March 13th, 2012, 4:16 am

On the L&L website they state, "These overruns were made to compensate for any possible defect or damage in the limited edition run of 500". This being the case, I think upon finding no defects or damages to the originial 500 books, the extra copies should have been destroyed.

I am sure they have done nothing that they could be held accountable for, from a legal standpoint, but that's not the point at all. In my eyes, they have done something wrong. No matter how cleverly they worded their original adds for the set of books, I believed that there would only be 500 copies of each volume in existence ... EVER.

This was an expensive purchase. The idea that these books would hold their value, or prehaps increase in value, was a factor in my decision to buy them. The resale value for these books may have been on the decline before L&L decided to put the overrun copies up for sale, but their decision to do so can only serve to worsen the situation. They don't care. The amount of overrun copies, and the decision to sell them, was probably made long before the first copy of volume one rolled off the press.

Ian Kendall
Posts: 2631
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Edinburgh
Contact:

Re: Castle notebooks for sale again

Postby Ian Kendall » March 13th, 2012, 4:38 am

Gary; L&L explicitly stated that 'in order to preserve Bruce's desire for exclusivity' there would be only 500 copies (ironic as that seems). Their marketing was based on this 'grab it now or it's gone' concept.

How many extra copies did they print? How many mistakes did they expect to be made in a 500 copy print run?

User avatar
Andrew Pinard
Posts: 362
Joined: March 13th, 2008, 11:13 am
Contact:

Re: Castle notebooks for sale again

Postby Andrew Pinard » March 13th, 2012, 6:30 am

10-15% is a normal overrun in the print industry. One might order 500 copies and be expected to pay for up to 575 copies.

The Magic Apple
Posts: 850
Joined: January 23rd, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Studio City, CA
Contact:

Re: Castle notebooks for sale again

Postby The Magic Apple » March 13th, 2012, 10:54 am

I bought my set, as I'm sure others did based on the fact that only 499 other people woulkd be getting these books. If there is an overage, we should have been told about them FIRST. Maybe something like "We have 500 LIMITED NUMBERED copies and about 75 NON-Numbered copies for a few bucks less"
Than I would not feel cheated or lied to.
Imagine if Toyota came out with a limited edition car and only produced 500 of them and a 500 dumbass celebrities bought them, then a year or so later another 75 were released...you don't think those people would be pissed...!?
TheMagicApple.com

818-508-9921

Follow us: @The_Magic_Apple

Ted M
Posts: 1187
Joined: January 24th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Dani DaOrtiz
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Castle notebooks for sale again

Postby Ted M » March 13th, 2012, 11:17 am

Archive.org has preserved the original advertising text from L&L's website. The limited number of copies was indeed used as a major selling point, as the text stresses the number of copies that will be sold no less than 3 times:

"...just 500 copies will be sold!"

"Only 500 copies will be sold."

and in boldfaced caps to close the ad:

"JUST 500 COPIES WILL BE SOLD!"

Archived here, snapshot from Nov 22, 2007: http://web.archive.org/web/20071122091213/http://www.llpub.com/zenshop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=2462


User avatar
Richard Kaufman
Posts: 27055
Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
Contact:

Re: Castle notebooks for sale again

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 13th, 2012, 11:58 am

Okay, I think we all get the point that the books were advertised as only 500 being sold. You're beating a dead horse, as they say.
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

User avatar
Gary Kosnitzky
Posts: 254
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Vazhakunnam Neelakanthan Namboothiri
Contact:

Re: Castle notebooks for sale again

Postby Gary Kosnitzky » March 13th, 2012, 12:24 pm

Ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat

It may not be as bad as everyone is working themselves up to think.
You have trolls here who don't even own the book and just get off on rabble rousing everyone into a feeding frenzy.

Ian Kendall
Posts: 2631
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Edinburgh
Contact:

Re: Castle notebooks for sale again

Postby Ian Kendall » March 13th, 2012, 12:48 pm

I have a set of the books. I understood that there would be only 500 copies. I reserve the right to be a tad pissed off.

User avatar
mrgoat
Posts: 4242
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Brighton, UK
Contact:

Re: Castle notebooks for sale again

Postby mrgoat » March 13th, 2012, 1:25 pm

I'm genuinely astounded L&L lied and would mislead people to try and make a quick buck out of magicians. Not like them at all.

User avatar
luigimar
Posts: 229
Joined: March 14th, 2008, 8:48 pm
Location: Mexico

Re: Castle notebooks for sale again

Postby luigimar » March 13th, 2012, 1:42 pm

What's done is done. Why don't you use your energy into opening those books and learn something out of them? That way you get more value out of them than what they cost, whatever amount you paid, collector's edition or otherwise.

L&L is already selling them with or without your approval and there isn't much you can do about it. Let the market settle and the value of your books will go up again soon. THEY WILL.
luigimar

User avatar
mrgoat
Posts: 4242
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Brighton, UK
Contact:

Re: Castle notebooks for sale again

Postby mrgoat » March 13th, 2012, 2:18 pm

luigimar wrote:What's done is done. Why don't you use your energy into opening those books and learn something out of them? That way you get more value out of them than what they cost, whatever amount you paid, collector's edition or otherwise.

L&L is already selling them with or without your approval and there isn't much you can do about it.


Good point. When someone lies to you, breaks the terms of the contract under which an item was sold, just pull your pants down and take it like a man.

I can't wait for another couple of years to pass, and they reissue them again, with bonus vernon videos unseen and only sell them as a set for 5k.


Return to “Buzz”