Science Friction

Discuss products and their reviews in Genii.
User avatar
mrgoat
Posts: 4257
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Brighton, UK
Contact:

Re: Science Friction

Postby mrgoat » February 6th, 2012, 12:40 pm

Steven Keyl wrote:Slagging off a product simply because its existing supporters are not using it in a way that you personally find redeeming does NOT mean it has no redeeming value.


I think people are slagging it off because it is something that is cheap that is repackaged and sold to magicians at a vast mark up.

The slagging of idiots is just secondary. But fun.

Steven Keyl
Posts: 39
Joined: January 10th, 2011, 3:33 pm
Contact:

Re: Science Friction

Postby Steven Keyl » February 6th, 2012, 1:39 pm

Brad, I'm not casting a qualitative judgement, rather making an observation.

But since you asked...

Wanting to have effects that are capable of fooling fellow magicians is not something that I would classify as a "value system." Most magicians I know have a couple of effects reserved for those times they get together and session. To answer your question, it seems neither good nor bad for the growth of magic as an art form. If pressed for a hard answer, I would lean toward positive for no other reason than I'd rather have a tool I didn't need than need a tool I didn't have.

However, this (for me at least) was a minor point. The main point I was making is that you cannot judge a product's suitability for magical endeavors based solely on the initial applications of that product in its infancy. As it reaches a wider audience, more minds will come to bear on how this can be used to its full potential.

mrgoat, can I just call you Mr.? ;)
Seems that SF spray is taking a slagging from all sides. Regarding the repackaging and resale to magicians for a markup is certainly a fair point and one that I haven't formed an opinion on yet. Seems TMC is lavish in its praise; likewise it seems Genii Forum is equally lavish in its condemnation. My guess is that the difference between the two products may be more negligible than is reported on TMC but more profound than is reported here, simply due to experimenter bias.

But what the hell do I know, I've only got 6 posts!
Steven Keyl - Magic Book Report

User avatar
mrgoat
Posts: 4257
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Brighton, UK
Contact:

Re: Science Friction

Postby mrgoat » February 6th, 2012, 1:53 pm

Steven Keyl wrote:mrgoat, can I just call you Mr.? ;)


Or Damian. Whatever you feel more comfortable with.

Steven Keyl wrote: Seems TMC is lavish in its praise; likewise it seems Genii Forum is equally lavish in its condemnation.


The Green Place is full of idiots lavishing praise on teenagers for recreating other people's tricks and speaking in high pitched voices on video.

You do the math, girlfriend.

[clicks fingers in a cool black lady sort of manner]

Steven Keyl
Posts: 39
Joined: January 10th, 2011, 3:33 pm
Contact:

Re: Science Friction

Postby Steven Keyl » February 6th, 2012, 3:59 pm

Reminds me of a quote:

One of the problems the internet has introduced is that in this electronic village, all the village idiots have internet access.
--Peter Nelson
Steven Keyl - Magic Book Report

User avatar
Bob Cunningham
Posts: 365
Joined: May 25th, 2008, 4:11 pm
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: Science Friction

Postby Bob Cunningham » February 6th, 2012, 4:53 pm

Steven Keyl wrote: My guess is that the difference between the two products may be more negligible than is reported on TMC but more profound than is reported here, simply due to experimenter bias.


Hi Steven, I think you asking good questions. My only observation is that as "the expairimenter in question, I am a fan of Science Friction and gave it an enthusiastic review. I frankly thought that Brad was full of s..t when he said He thought that Plasti-Dip was the same substance. I purchased a can to prove him wrong. My bias was in favor of Science Friction. I am confident enough in my conclusion that if we could both send an identical card to an unbiased 3rd party, one treated with Plasti-Dip and the other with Science Friction and that observer could tell them apart I would gladly buy you a can of Science Friction ;-)

I am still a fan of the concept, but honestly there is no observable difference between the two substances.

User avatar
mrgoat
Posts: 4257
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Brighton, UK
Contact:

Re: Science Friction

Postby mrgoat » February 6th, 2012, 5:49 pm

Steven Keyl wrote:Reminds me of a quote:

One of the problems the internet has introduced is that in this electronic village, all the village idiots have internet access.
--Peter Nelson


and they all seem to post on TMC

:D

Steven Keyl
Posts: 39
Joined: January 10th, 2011, 3:33 pm
Contact:

Re: Science Friction

Postby Steven Keyl » February 6th, 2012, 8:32 pm

Fair enough, Bob. If you can acquire an identically performing product at a fraction of the price then I wouldn't deter anyone from going that route. As an owner of SF, I can attest that it performs as advertised. I knew exactly what I was getting when I ordered it and am happy with the purchase.

Damian, that seems unduly harsh, no? I guess I just don't understand the dynamic between the two forums yet. Of course, by your emoticon I also gather you're just having a spot of fun, which I wouldn't deter either. Carry on.
Steven Keyl - Magic Book Report

User avatar
Bob Cunningham
Posts: 365
Joined: May 25th, 2008, 4:11 pm
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: Science Friction

Postby Bob Cunningham » February 6th, 2012, 9:34 pm

Don't get me wrong. I too purchased SF and I am pleased with my purchase. I would not have come across this stuff if I had not bought it. I am not angry at the price, it behaves as advertised. However, in the future all my refills will be Plasti-Dip ;-)

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 8146
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: Science Friction

Postby Jonathan Townsend » February 6th, 2012, 10:17 pm

How are the treated cards on picking up oils, dirt and collecting lint in the pocket?
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

User avatar
Bob Cunningham
Posts: 365
Joined: May 25th, 2008, 4:11 pm
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: Science Friction

Postby Bob Cunningham » February 6th, 2012, 10:36 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:How are the treated cards on picking up oils, dirt and collecting lint in the pocket?


Not bad so far. There is nothing sticky - just a different coefficient of friction than that of two normal cards.

TGR
Posts: 16
Joined: February 9th, 2012, 11:16 am
Location: Manchester England

Re: Science Friction

Postby TGR » February 10th, 2012, 7:42 am

Guys,
I am one of the few people who have purchased BOTH SF & Plasti Dip... I can tell you with 100% certainty that they are completely different - FACT. They look different, smell different and perform differently. PD is around 60% as effective as SF. I like virtually all people who have made the purchase of SF are very happy. Sorry to give you the bad news.

User avatar
mrgoat
Posts: 4257
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Brighton, UK
Contact:

Re: Science Friction

Postby mrgoat » February 10th, 2012, 8:03 am

I love 1 post shills!

TGR
Posts: 16
Joined: February 9th, 2012, 11:16 am
Location: Manchester England

Re: Science Friction

Postby TGR » February 10th, 2012, 9:01 am

Mr. Goat,
You could not be further from the truth. Just because you don't like or agree with the contents of the post does not automatically mean that the contents are incorrect. Have you purchased or used either? No, I thought not. I have.

User avatar
Bob Cunningham
Posts: 365
Joined: May 25th, 2008, 4:11 pm
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: Science Friction

Postby Bob Cunningham » February 10th, 2012, 9:10 am

TGR wrote:Guys,
I am one of the few people who have purchased BOTH SF & Plasti Dip... I can tell you with 100% certainty that they are completely different - FACT. They look different, smell different and perform differently. PD is around 60% as effective as SF. I like virtually all people who have made the purchase of SF are very happy. Sorry to give you the bad news.


I am ACTUALLY one the people has purchased both. I have prepared cards using both. I have tested those treated cards.

FACT: They look the same
FACT: They smell the same
FACT: They behave the same.

To modify a previous offer, I will donate $100 to the charity of your choice if an objective third party can tell the difference by sight, smell or feel of cards I have prepared with Science Friction and Plasti-Dip.

CONCLUSION: I have to question either your motives or your competence!

TGR
Posts: 16
Joined: February 9th, 2012, 11:16 am
Location: Manchester England

Re: Science Friction

Postby TGR » February 10th, 2012, 9:18 am

Bob,
You are on - I will take your bet all day long!
Just the smell alone is 10000% different!
SF is virtually odourless when sprayed. PD stinks to high heaven! How do we get an independent person to test both regarding the smell when initally sprayed? If you / we can do it - then I am more than up for it as I KNOW I am correct. The charity of my choice is Cancer Research. Yours?

TGR
Posts: 16
Joined: February 9th, 2012, 11:16 am
Location: Manchester England

Re: Science Friction

Postby TGR » February 10th, 2012, 9:26 am

Also, by law the manufacturers have to list the contents of the aerosol on the label...

Tom Gilbert
Posts: 788
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: NH
Contact:

Re: Science Friction

Postby Tom Gilbert » February 10th, 2012, 10:23 am

I'll take Plasti-Dip for $6, and have the best double lifts and Elmsleys.

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 8146
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: Science Friction

Postby Jonathan Townsend » February 10th, 2012, 10:28 am

Is there a reverse function to the plastidip- I'm looking to treat business cards so they slide for card type handling.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

User avatar
Bob Cunningham
Posts: 365
Joined: May 25th, 2008, 4:11 pm
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: Science Friction

Postby Bob Cunningham » February 10th, 2012, 10:44 am

Jonathan Townsend wrote:Is there a reverse function to the plastidip- I'm looking to treat business cards so they slide for card type handling.


You might try Teflon spray. I have not played with it, but I think it might do what you are looking for - http://www.sealfast.com/d_teflon_spray.html

User avatar
Bob Cunningham
Posts: 365
Joined: May 25th, 2008, 4:11 pm
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: Science Friction

Postby Bob Cunningham » February 10th, 2012, 10:47 am

TGR wrote:Bob,
The charity of my choice is Cancer Research. Yours?


Good for you! I like a person who stands on their conviction ;-)

Lets see if someone from the forum would volunteer as judge. And my offer for a $100 donation was unilateral, but if you feel generous I am partial to the wounded warrior project!

TGR
Posts: 16
Joined: February 9th, 2012, 11:16 am
Location: Manchester England

Re: Science Friction

Postby TGR » February 10th, 2012, 10:54 am

Bob Cunningham wrote:
TGR wrote:Bob,
The charity of my choice is Cancer Research. Yours?


Good for you! I like a person who stands on their conviction ;-)

Lets see if someone from the forum would volunteer as judge. And my offer for a $100 donation was unilateral, but if you feel generous I am partial to the wounded warrior project!



Bob,
You are a man of my own heart! The 'test' if you agree is the direct smell / odour when the cards are initially sprayed. The test will have to be done in different rooms for obvious reasons I guess. The Wounded warrior project sounds good to me. Lets Ruuuuuummmmmble!

Anthony Vinson
Posts: 284
Joined: July 10th, 2010, 12:34 pm
Location: Georgia

Re: Science Friction

Postby Anthony Vinson » February 10th, 2012, 11:08 am

@TGR, your test conditions are far too subjective as to be valid. Perhaps someone should set up a blindfold comparison test as with the Pepsi Challenge of the 1980s when cola wars were being waged around the globe! Set up booths at magic conventions complete with silver dollars, duct tape and lengths of thick, black cloth. Yeah, that's the ticket! But seriously folks, if a product "works" for someone and they are happy with the results, then what's the difference? I say Science Friction, you say PlastiDip, let's call the whole thing off!

User avatar
mrgoat
Posts: 4257
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Brighton, UK
Contact:

Re: Science Friction

Postby mrgoat » February 10th, 2012, 11:10 am

Sounds like a gay product anyway.

Steven Keyl
Posts: 39
Joined: January 10th, 2011, 3:33 pm
Contact:

Re: Science Friction

Postby Steven Keyl » February 10th, 2012, 11:22 am

Far be it from me to get in the way of a good old fashioned pissing contest but the odor of the cards directly after application is of little importance. The real issue is how the cards handle after having been treated. In fact, if PD required twice the amount of spray in order to achieve the same level of friction (and feel) as SF then I would still call it a draw since you would be able to achieve the same results given a varying quantity.

As far as odor is concerned the only real issue is if the treated card continued to emit an odor hours or days after treatment. As a user of SF I can attest that the smell of the product is intense which is why I have to spray it outside. However, when the treated card is brought inside after a minute or two there is no smell at all on the card.
Steven Keyl - Magic Book Report

TGR
Posts: 16
Joined: February 9th, 2012, 11:16 am
Location: Manchester England

Re: Science Friction

Postby TGR » February 10th, 2012, 11:35 am

Steven Keyl wrote:Far be it from me to get in the way of a good old fashioned pissing contest but the odor of the cards directly after application is of little importance. The real issue is how the cards handle after having been treated. In fact, if PD required twice the amount of spray in order to achieve the same level of friction (and feel) as SF then I would still call it a draw since you would be able to achieve the same results given a varying quantity.

As far as odor is concerned the only real issue is if the treated card continued to emit an odor hours or days after treatment. As a user of SF I can attest that the smell of the product is intense which is why I have to spray it outside. However, when the treated card is brought inside after a minute or two there is no smell at all on the card.


Steven,
Me & Bob are having a good old 'Ding-Dong' and nothing wrong with that! Our 'discussion' is regarding how different (or not) the 2 products are. The smell on release from the aerosol will identify any difference in chemical composition of the 2 said products. I stand by my claim as does Bob his. I agree with you that ultimately its how the cards handle afterwards. However, that is highly subjective between each individual magician. But hey - its only magic at the end of the day!

User avatar
Bob Cunningham
Posts: 365
Joined: May 25th, 2008, 4:11 pm
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: Science Friction

Postby Bob Cunningham » February 10th, 2012, 12:09 pm

mrgoat wrote:Sounds like a gay product anyway.


You mean happy?

User avatar
mrgoat
Posts: 4257
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Brighton, UK
Contact:

Re: Science Friction

Postby mrgoat » February 10th, 2012, 12:35 pm

Bob Cunningham wrote:
mrgoat wrote:Sounds like a gay product anyway.


You mean happy?


Yes, clearly nothing but happiness surrounding this product :)

Brad Henderson
Posts: 4078
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: austin, tx

Re: Science Friction

Postby Brad Henderson » February 10th, 2012, 12:39 pm

Actually, the smell on release does not indicate that the effective contents are different, only that they smell different. It is my understanding that some producers of aerosol products put an additive into their mix to make the product foul to inhale/taste. This is done to prevent abusing the product to get high. The air used to clean computer keyboards is notably treated as such. If you ever put your fingers near your mouth after using a recently cleaned keyboard you have experienced it. This propellant/additive would not - I suspect - have anything to do with the actual chemical elements at work. So, I don't think a release from can smell test would prove anything.

Anthony Vinson
Posts: 284
Joined: July 10th, 2010, 12:34 pm
Location: Georgia

Re: Science Friction

Postby Anthony Vinson » February 10th, 2012, 12:54 pm

mrgoat wrote:Sounds like a gay product anyway.


Seriously?! I think you're confusing it with Grecian Formula. Or at least Science Slicktion... Okay, okay, if you're going to throw anything, make make it sponge balls!

Tom Gilbert
Posts: 788
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: NH
Contact:

Re: Science Friction

Postby Tom Gilbert » February 10th, 2012, 1:30 pm

I was trying to figure what part odor after application had to do with how the product worked.

Pete McCabe
Posts: 2324
Joined: January 18th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Simi Valley, CA

Re: Science Friction

Postby Pete McCabe » February 10th, 2012, 1:42 pm

TGR wrote:SF is virtually odourless when sprayed.


Steven Keyl wrote:As a user of SF I can attest that the smell of the product is intense which is why I have to spray it outside.


Apparently, even SF is not the same as SF. Someone should test PD against PD and report back to us.

TGR
Posts: 16
Joined: February 9th, 2012, 11:16 am
Location: Manchester England

Re: Science Friction

Postby TGR » February 10th, 2012, 2:10 pm

Hey... It looks like SF is pretty popular around here? Hmm... Interesting...
PS. If the smell is different it is due to the fact the ingredients are different (regardless of the reason) therefore by definition the product is different. That was the very simple point I was trying to make. Hey-ho! (as we say in England)

TGR
Posts: 16
Joined: February 9th, 2012, 11:16 am
Location: Manchester England

Re: Science Friction

Postby TGR » February 10th, 2012, 2:15 pm

Full disclosure:
I ran an aerosol filling business for 4 years. I do have some background and knowledge of the chemical industry. You would be amazed what gets filled into those cans! Or maybe you wouldn't...

Chris Aguilar
Posts: 1824
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Sacramento
Contact:

Re: Science Friction

Postby Chris Aguilar » February 10th, 2012, 2:27 pm

TGR wrote:Full disclosure:
I ran an aerosol filling business for 4 years. I do have some background and knowledge of the chemical industry. You would be amazed what gets filled into those cans! Or maybe you wouldn't...


Why did you edit out the following from your post?

TGR wrote:PS. If the smell is different it is due to the fact the ingredients are different (regardless of the reason) therefore by definition the product is different.


Even this non expert knows that an aerosol can have the same active ingredient, yet be scented differently.

I'm surprised that someone (someone anonymous, posting here at genii for the very first time) with your supposed expertise would infer that different smell indicates a different product. (especially when smell is not germane to how the product is used)

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 8146
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: Science Friction

Postby Jonathan Townsend » February 10th, 2012, 2:28 pm

Brad, about the sniffing stuff, it's like when two dogs meet, but the dogs are imaginary and the screen names might both be sock puppets. Online theater. Working its way to Punch and Judy or a pantomime perhaps?
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

Doomo
Posts: 359
Joined: March 13th, 2008, 3:23 pm
Contact:

Re: Science Friction

Postby Doomo » February 10th, 2012, 2:34 pm

TGR wrote:Bob,
You are on - I will take your bet all day long!
Just the smell alone is 10000% different!
SF is virtually odourless when sprayed. PD stinks to high heaven! How do we get an independent person to test both regarding the smell when initally sprayed? If you / we can do it - then I am more than up for it as I KNOW I am correct. The charity of my choice is Cancer Research. Yours?


Ok... I am NOT a participant in the use of either plastidip OR Science Friction.... HOWEVER, I do have to disagree with ya on one lil concern. I was literally across from the Card Shark booth all weekend at MagiFest. About ten feet from them in my booth. And you CAN smell the SF. BELIEVE me... Others at my booth commented on it as well... Like I said, I don't have a dog in the race. But in an enclosed space, you can smell the stuff... As to how it works, I have heard nothing but thumbs up.
RFA Productions yeah... It is cool stuff.

www.rfaproductions.com

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 8146
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: Science Friction

Postby Jonathan Townsend » February 10th, 2012, 3:17 pm

@RFA, once you can make things slide or stick, one can use light touch wallet loads almost like the magnetic card item to move cards around.

User avatar
Bob Cunningham
Posts: 365
Joined: May 25th, 2008, 4:11 pm
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: Science Friction

Postby Bob Cunningham » February 10th, 2012, 3:20 pm

Anthony Vinson wrote: ... test conditions are far too subjective as to be valid ... I say Science Friction, you say PlastiDip, let's call the whole thing off!


Anthony, I confess to be a bit more intense on this than the subject matter deserves. It is probably like that old quip about academia, "the reason the fights are so intense is that that stakes are so small!"

Having said that, I am a little bit obsessive and Jonathan Townsend has graciously agreed to be a judge in blind test. I believe he has no exposure to Plasti-Dip or Science Friction and has no "dog in this fight"

I am going to mail Jonathan several cards treated with Plasti-Dip, Science Friction and some untreated. I am not going to tell him exactly how many in each category (although there will be at least two in each category). I will be interested in his observations.

BTW, I do not care about the difference, if any, in the smell while applying the spray. I think Brad is spot on here. I do think it is relevant if there is a difference in smell after the spray has dried.

TGR
Posts: 16
Joined: February 9th, 2012, 11:16 am
Location: Manchester England

Re: Science Friction

Postby TGR » February 11th, 2012, 4:44 am

Bob,
You are correct: There is no difference of smell once they have dried out (DP needs a few hours before it becomes odourless - SF much less in my experience). It will be interesting in the findings Jonathon comes up with. Please make sure he gives them a good working over as usage over time can a make a difference to performance. Looking forward to the verdict!

TGR
Posts: 16
Joined: February 9th, 2012, 11:16 am
Location: Manchester England

Re: Science Friction

Postby TGR » February 12th, 2012, 6:31 am

Just picked this up from a thread on TMC discussing SF:

'Check David Regal's review of SF in Genii Magazine two or three months ago. He tested several similar sprays, including Plasti-Dip, and stated that none were the same as SF. But feel free to spray whatever you wish on your cards!'

I do not have a subscription to the Genii magazine however I guess some of you may?. It would be very interesting to hear why David Regal also says that SF and PD ARE different. Anybody read the review?


Return to “Light From the Lamp”