ERDNASE

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Richard Hatch
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » April 8th, 2011, 10:20 am

The upcoming (April 20th) Christopher auction has one of Dr. Jacob Daley's copies of Erdnase (apparently a rebound copy of the 1937 Drake edition) listed:
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/8964836
Curious (to me) that the silhouette of Daley is by Jeanne Vernon rather than Dai. I knew she was an artist, but didn't realize she shared that particular skill with her husband (I assume he taught her, as he did several others).

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » April 8th, 2011, 11:10 am

A number of paintings by Marshall D. Smith, Erdnase's illustrator.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » May 6th, 2011, 12:10 am

The Marriage Record of Milton Franklin Andrews. His mother's maiden name was Johnson and his in-laws family name was Whitcomb (may be useful for checking relationship with Dalrymple).

And THIS is Edwin Sumner Andrews' marriage license. I believe Richard Hatch has had a copy of this for years, but now it's online for anyone who wants.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » May 6th, 2011, 8:57 am

Congrats Bill, that'a a totally cool find.
Are there living relatives to help out with the family tree process?
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby JeffS » May 6th, 2011, 10:43 pm

Very cool, Bill. I do have a question about the Edwin Summer one though. Illinois has a marriage index that you can search here:
http://www.ilsos.gov/GenealogyMWeb/marrsrch.html and it lists Edwin S as marrying Elizabeth Crosby in 1883 and then an Edwin Summer Andrews marrying Dollie Seely. I had heard of the Seely surname as related to Erdnase but had never heard about this earlier marriage. If both marriages are Edwin Summer do we know what happened to Elizabeth? It is probably too much to hope for that she divorced him for gambling too much ....
So I read the riddle.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Hatch » May 6th, 2011, 11:04 pm

JeffS wrote:Very cool, Bill. I do have a question about the Edwin Summer one though. Illinois has a marriage index that you can search here:
http://www.ilsos.gov/GenealogyMWeb/marrsrch.html and it lists Edwin S as marrying Elizabeth Crosby in 1883 and then an Edwin Summer Andrews marrying Dollie Seely. I had heard of the Seely surname as related to Erdnase but had never heard about this earlier marriage. If both marriages are Edwin Summer do we know what happened to Elizabeth? It is probably too much to hope for that she divorced him for gambling too much ....


Elizabeth died on May 1, 1897, leaving Edwin a widower with two young children. He married Dollie a year later on July 6, 1898. I have a hard copy of the first and second marriage certificates (obtainable from the State of Illinois), but if a digital copy of the second becomes available online, please let me know (it is double sided. One side is reproduced in my original article on this topic in the December 1999 issue of MAGIC).

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jason England » May 14th, 2011, 1:38 am

I have recently been put in charge of a large number of editions of Erdnase that I'm trying to place in good homes.

No first editions or hardback Drake editions (sorry) here, but lots of other tough to find editions of the book, including at least one foreign edition. All are in good to excellent shape considering their ages.

If you're a collector of the various editions/printings of EATCT, please contact me at the email address below. Just replace the AT with the appropriate @ symbol.

Thanks.

Jason

jasonATjasonengland.com

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Joe Pecore » May 14th, 2011, 10:18 pm

Be sure to watch Kaufman's "More Genii Speaks" video in electronic version the June 2001 Genii for an interesting announcement about Erdnase. :)
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jason England » May 15th, 2011, 7:33 pm

I've never watched one of the "More Genii Speaks" videos. Where are they and how does one access them?

Jason

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby erdnasephile » May 15th, 2011, 7:36 pm

Jason:

Go on ask Alexander and access the latest issue of Genii magazine.

In Richard's Genii Speaks column, you will see an icon on the top of the page labeled "More Genii Speaks" (with a picture of Richard and an "eye" icon labeled "Watch") and click on it.

For example, see page 11 in the May 2011 issue--it's at the top of the page.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 15th, 2011, 7:42 pm

You have to be a subscriber in order to view the digital edition of Genii. If Jason is a subscriber, he has never sent us his email address and is not in the electronic database which allows subscribers to activate their iGenii accounts.

I know who Erdnase is, and when you get our September issue, all of you will know, too.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Steve Bryant » May 15th, 2011, 7:46 pm

Will any of us know this Saturday morning?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 15th, 2011, 7:58 pm

No.
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Roger M.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » May 16th, 2011, 12:27 am

So this isn't any part of the MCA presentations?

Wherever it comes from, I prefer to be my own judge of the evidence, as we've already been down this road once with Gardner/Busby/Whaley.
They had "indisputable" evidence as well.

Time (and the quality of the research) will tell.

I do eagerly await the various bits of proprietary Erdnase information coming out over the next little while, from the MCA and now from Genii.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 16th, 2011, 12:44 am

Not part of the MCA.

Of course each person will their own judge of the facts. There will always be those who dispute the evidence of any candidate. But this candidate's evidence is pretty strong ... really strong. Short of a signed contract with the printer, I don't think it's going to get any tighter.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Mike Vance » May 16th, 2011, 12:51 am

Richard, I picture you in the center of a feeding frenzy at MCA. Good luck!

Let's hope the MCA hasn't approved any enhanced interrogation techniques. :)

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » May 16th, 2011, 8:43 am

Much enjoying this latest cause for folks to go all "shivering with anticipation" over that book.

Best wishes for the rest of the buildup and reveal in September's issue.

_j

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby El Mystico » May 17th, 2011, 8:05 am

Do you guys know about Erdnase - the opera?

http://www.gavinbryars.com/work/inprogr ... as-erdnase

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » May 17th, 2011, 9:59 am

Most do, the work it's based on has been around for a while.

If you don't have it already, and want that "Erdnase vibe" on a Sunday morning while drinking your coffee, pick up Bryars "A Man in a Room, Gambling".

I listen to it quite often............my 13 year old daughter on the other hand........not so much.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » May 17th, 2011, 11:46 am

Bart Whaley tells us (in The Man Who Was Erdnase) that Mickey MacDougall came up with the term "mechanic's grip" in his 1939 book Gamblers Don't Gamble. Historical lexicographers (like those who edit the Oxford English Dictionary) always search for the first printed use of a word or phrase when researching. Gamblers Don't Gamble was published Feb 23 1939. But Life magazine, in their Feb 6 1939 issue, had an article about gambling and included a few pages of MacDougall demonstrating some sleights, and it used the phrase two weeks ahead of MacDougall's book (although it's pretty obvious that they got it from MacDougall). So, Life, not MacDougall, gets credit for the first use in print of the term (unless someone finds an earlier citation).

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » May 17th, 2011, 12:30 pm

Bill, was that in a quote or borrow from the text of the book or an interview ... ? *thinking that the filing for copyright and the manuscript text was long done before Life did their article*
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bill Mullins » May 17th, 2011, 11:35 pm

Jon If you re-examine my post, you will see that I cleverly provided a link to the Life article just so you can investigate questions like these. RTFA.

But to save you the trouble of doing the even the minimal effort required, Ill tell you that the copyright date of the book is the same as the publication date.

Lexicographers use dated written examples as a standard. The Life article came out before the book, so it wins. This doesnt mean that Life invented the term (as I pointed out above, its clear that they got it from MacDougall), just that they got into print first. It is an arbitrary standard, but has the virtue of being workable.

If you should find the manuscript, and it is dated before Feb 6, 1939, let me know and Ill give you the email address of the OED so you can report it.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » May 18th, 2011, 8:12 am

At home we used to get Life Magazine, a weekly - and that got me wondering about the dates in question being those of publication or copyright filing in the matter of precidence brought up.

The article also cites another magazine, Cosmopolitan as currently running more about cheating at the time - intersting - google brought up some from 1939 linked to Hearst - so there's more to find.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » May 20th, 2011, 12:41 am

'ya know..........considering the length of this thread, how long it's been running for, and some of the strong opinions held by some of the regular posters, I'm frankly amazed!

Richard has basically said "Erdnase has been found", I posted commenting on his statement.........and then we totally changed subjects and carried on as if it was nothing new worth discussing!!

Are there really no comments on RK's statement of this pending announcement/article?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Brad Henderson » May 20th, 2011, 1:48 am

Wasn't karr about to make an announcement about his guy. Maybe this is it.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Magic Fred » May 20th, 2011, 1:58 am

Perhaps we have finally reached our fill when it comes to hype in magic (as if!) ... I suppose most are waiting to see if Mr. K. actually has anything of substance before getting excited about it.

Me, I'm guessing it's going to be some kind of satirical piece.

I'll keep an open mind though. If Mr. K. actually can prove the identity of the author beyond any reasonable doubt, then maybe he'd make a good candidate for an inaugural "Nobel Prize" of magic, or some such.

Then again, maybe not. It seems to matter very little to most.

Wouldn't you rather see someone actually do the moves from the book?

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » May 20th, 2011, 8:04 am

MF - agreed about seeing the material described in that book done in such a way as to be both deceptive and effective.

IMHO the magic market is, by and large, about hype for hobbyist and armchair expositionists so what's a little more hype as entertainment for this summer along with Hollywood's latest at the cinema and perhaps Charles Stross's latest on the bookshelf?

The notion of a magic based Nobel type prize... founded by someone who invented and deployed a hugely destructive force that will haunt humanity for generations (dynamite in Nobel's case) so perhaps we should call it the "Valentino"?? The "expose it so they will have to invent new and better stuff" meme that reduces mystery to trivia and lifetimes of work in performance to amusing semifiction for readers?

The question of why some in our craft would wish to treat a "non-father" figure person as if they could be a father figure ... is IMHO well worth the work to explore.

Is there corollary to "self fulfilling prophesy" about things that could never be and so are safe to pursue?

We found "Waldo" - so why not "Erdnase" as well?
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Geno Munari » May 20th, 2011, 9:38 am

Roger M is correct. Looking back into the massive submissions and replies on ERDNASE in this forum, it seemes like we all went in "silence of the lambs".

I am eagerly awaiting to ponder the material that Richard is sandbagging. It should provoke even more conversation.

Interesting though, that I certainly believe that he can't be the only Christopher Columbus on this voyage. His crew has kept it close to the vest.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Roger M. » May 20th, 2011, 10:04 am

I agree with Geno.......somebody, or a few "somebodies" are keeping this news a very well secured secret.

Normally, there'd be at least some buzz out there, and with the Magic Collectors weekend taking place, I'd have suspected even more chatter!

Jon, perhaps you're in the wrong thread. This thread is about Erdnase the man.
If you don't want to be part of the simple joy that this Mr. Erdnase "discovery process" brings to some folks.......(myself included, be it hype or reality), then this is the wrong thread for you.

The "Let's Keep it Honest" award goes to Magic Fred for reminding us all that Steve Freeman still hasn't made a DVD :)

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » May 20th, 2011, 10:13 am

Silence of the Lambs Geno?

Christopher Columbus was on his way to India.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jonathan Townsend » May 20th, 2011, 10:19 am

Roger, "erdnase" is a string of characters - perhaps a reflection of "andrews" in some sense - but to impute humanity upon such is a form of magic I have yet to study.

As to authorship of the text of the book with that character string in place of a person's name - open minded here and looking forward to reading what Richard has to offer on the subject comes the September issue.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Richard Kaufman » May 20th, 2011, 11:17 am

The piece on Erdnase will not be satirical. It's research-based reporting.

As I wrote somewhere else, the only single piece of evidence that would be conclusive is a contract between the candidate and the printer of Expert at the Card Table. Letters wouldn't be conclusive since anyone could have claimed to be the author and written to his friends about it.

The identity of S.W. Erdnase can only be ascertained through circumstantial evidence, but no candidate has ever been put forth that a genuinely convincing case could be made for.

Until now.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Jim Maloney » May 20th, 2011, 11:20 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:Letters wouldn't be conclusive since anyone could have claimed to be the author and written to his friends about it.


True. Unless there were letters written prior to publication giving details that would have only been known to the author at the time.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Geno Munari » May 20th, 2011, 11:51 am

The printer probably had many contracts with other customers. Are there any of these contracts available to compare the paragraphs, clauses and of course signatures, to the alledged Erdnase contract?

The paper should also be similar as well as natural errors found in printer's type. Printer's type is subject to defects just from the constant pressure and impression count. The paper grain of other contracts could also be compared.


Are there any errors in the contract's proof? Are the same errors on the same fonts that are published in the Erdnase first edition? These errors are like fingerprints. Also, there may be fingerprints still on the contract.

Clearly this will be dicernable if alowed to examine the actual contract, rather than a digital impression. A new modern dating method could pinpoint the exact year of the paper manufacture. Does the paper have watermarks that indicated wherein the stock was manufactured? One can then go and check the records of paper manufacturers.


And one more thing, in the US Copyright office we know that the copyright application was signed by a member of the printing company. Does the handwriting match?


And there are many more forensic and invetigative questions to be applied. I hope Richard et al are ready for this.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Magic Fred » May 20th, 2011, 11:54 am

"Jon, perhaps you're in the wrong thread. This thread is about Erdnase the man...."

Well to be fair, the thread was started to discuss the contents of the book and recommended approaches to its study...

Has it now become the official "Who the **** was Erdnase" thread? If so, I'll gladly butt out because I really couldn't give a ****.

;)

In all seriousness though, I hope Mr. K's candidate can be identified as a card player. It would take some seriously weighty evidence to disabuse me of the notion that our suspect had first had experience of that about which he writes.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby John Lovick » May 20th, 2011, 12:12 pm

Geno,

Richard did not say he has the Erdnase contract. He said a contract would be the only conclusive evidence.

He said he has convincing evidence, but not conclusive evidence. Therefore, I think we can safely assume there is no contract to submit to forensic study.
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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Bob Coyne » May 20th, 2011, 4:12 pm

This is really exciting to hear! I can't wait to read the article.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Mike Vance » May 20th, 2011, 4:43 pm

Magic Fred wrote:Well to be fair, the thread was started to discuss the contents of the book and recommended approaches to its study...

Has it now become the official "Who the **** was Erdnase" thread? If so, I'll gladly butt out because I really couldn't give a ****.


To be fair, knowing who the man is may change the way the text is interpreted.

Also, the mystery of Erdnase is hard not to talk about. This is a group of people who like to know secrets, and this is a pretty big one. I can't wait for the article either.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Magic Fred » May 20th, 2011, 5:15 pm

Mike Vance wrote:
Magic Fred wrote:Well to be fair, the thread was started to discuss the contents of the book and recommended approaches to its study...

Has it now become the official "Who the **** was Erdnase" thread? If so, I'll gladly butt out because I really couldn't give a ****.


To be fair, knowing who the man is may change the way the text is interpreted.

Also, the mystery of Erdnase is hard not to talk about. This is a group of people who like to know secrets, and this is a pretty big one. I can't wait for the article either.


Well you kind of took me out of context by excluding my subsequent comments... but that's ok. Personally, it wouldn't change a thing for me were I to discover who the author was. The work stands on its own merits.

But yes, of course it's interesting. For me, only mildly so as I'm much more interested in the contents of the book. Others are more interested in the identity of the author.

It reminds me of Hitchins remarking that it matters little to him if Socrates actually existed or not, as the principles and conversations attributed to him stand on their own, and wouldn't need to be reinterpreted were we to suddenly discover that the works were actually written by a mentally unstable criminal or something.

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Re: ERDNASE

Postby Mike Vance » May 20th, 2011, 8:18 pm

Fred,

Didn't mean to take you out of context. Just trying to make a point. No offense intended.

I agree that the book is very important. It should be studied and learned, as should a number of other books.

However, I'm equally captivated by the mystery; I love a good mystery. I don't know that finding out Erdnase's identity will allow us to completely reinterpret his book, but it should allow some additional context for those that love reading the book.


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