A bit more formal introduction.

[Admin At Bigfoot]

Many questions have been asked about www.bigfoot-prints.com I would like to introduce our company to all the members of the Genii Forum.

We have recently aquired the rights to many of the books Abbott's Magic Co. has published over it's many years in the magic community. We are in negotiation with several other company's to do the same. Our goal is to bring the magic community all the hard to find magic texts that we can (all in instant download form). This will include many which are not available and have not been for many years.

We are very much aware of the theft of magic material over the years and any book we offer will be with permission from the copyright holders. We do not intend to be known as another "Magic Takers". All of our staff have been in the magic profession in one way or another for many years.

We will be adding new titles and products all the time, if you are seeking some good magic for Halloween be sure to check out http://bigfoot-prints.com/pendulummagic.html

We are always happy to answer any questions you may have so feel free to send us an email.

[Richard Kaufman]

Who are you and who is on your staff?

[Jonathan Arturo]

I have purchased many of their products. All of them were great quality, and some very original material as well. The service I recieved from them was better than most companies I have done business with. I had a problem downloading one of the instant downloads (it was an issue on my end) within 20 minutes I got an email and they even talked me through how to fix it. I would recommend them for anyone looking for some great material.

[jason156]

I'm still waiting for you to answer Richard's questions.....

[Admin At Bigfoot]

Mr Arturo Thank you for your kind words. Mr. Kaufman we are a small group of individuals from the state of Michigan who have gotten together to form a small company in the attempt to do something we love doing. Most of us are not in what you might refer to as the in crowd, however, we do think we have something to add to the magic community.
Perhaps I will begin with introducing myself first. My name is David Kiel, I have been around the magic community for the better part of 30 years. It has not been my main source of income as I never went profesional. This does not mean I have never done profesional performances it just never became a full time career.
I spent many years traveling all over the country for my full time profession, performing whenever possible. I decided to branch out and try to bring the world some great magic. My one goal was to carry things no one else carried, find that niche. Through mutual friends I came across some talent that I thought the magic world could get into, but more on them later. This is how bigfoot came about. I will get into more detail when I have more time.

In the mean time if you have nothing better to do check us out
http://bigfoot-prints.com/

[Jonathan Townsend]

Pen through anything - the John Cornelius item?

[Admin At Bigfoot]

Jonathan We do not carry John's version, however we did get a small number of these pens. When they are gone we are going to discontinue this item from our list altogether. Perhaps we will carry his version of the effect at some time but right now I do not believe it will happen as so many people carry them.

I understand that the Cornelius pen has become a symbol for the magic community to stop the theft of ideas. This is one of the reasons we are going to discontinue this item from our stock. So I guess perhaps the pen is mightier than the sword.


For a few beginners who order them from us will get lucky and obtain them at a good price before they are gone, we would rather carry something of higher value to the magic community any how.

www.bigfoot-prints.com

[mrgoat]

Isn't selling knock-off stuff generally though of as bad?

[Admin At Bigfoot]

In most cases I would agree, case in point the cornelius pen, but if you look around you will find many cases of knock offs you use every day. If we did not there would only be a small hand full of business's around after all Mcdonalds is just a knock off of White castle. White castle was most surely a knock off of some diner who was a knock off of the guy who first flattened a meatball so it would cook faster . I am not condoning this in anyway but what I am saying is this; the world progress's sometimes for the good, often for the bad. In the event you are against something take no part in it, but don't discount everything because of that one thing.

We do build tools to keep our property from being stolen, you just try using Ronald Mcdonald as your mascot and see what happens. I would hope that Mr. Cornelius would try to defend his patent on his item as he could make more money from the direct rip offs than from selling the item itself.

www.bigfoot-prints.com

[mrgoat]

In most cases I would agree, case in point the cornelius pen, but if you look around you will find many cases of knock offs you use every day.

Oh cool. So because someone can't trademark a burger, it's cool to take money out of the wallet of Cornelius because everyone else does!

Thanks for clarifying your stance on selling copies.

[Richard Kaufman]

At this point how much can you really expect anyone to do to stop magic dealers from selling copies of Glorpy, or Pat Page's Flash Cash, or the Cornelius Pen through Bill?

There are so many dealers selling so many copies for so many years, that no one is going to stop it. And this has been true for almost as long as there have been magic dealers. In the early 1900s, when professional magic dealers in the US were still in their first 50 years of existence (and there simply weren't that many), they were still immediately copying things like The Svengali Deck and Theodore DeLand's card tricks within months of their original release.

If you want to get serious about this, you would really have to close every magic shop in the United States to stop every copy of every trick from being sold.

I'm not condoning any of it, simply stating the facts.

[Admin At Bigfoot]

Thanks for clarifying your stance on selling copies.

[/quote]

Sorry mrgoat I did not realize I was making a stance of any kind. I do understand this is an age old debate that seems clear to so many. Our choice to discontinue the product would make our stance on this clear.
As for taking money from Johns wallet; it is unfortunate that great ideas are stolen (let me clarify once again we are not condoning this) it happens in every business, but the patent rights would allow him to collect more than he would have made from selling them. Some could argue that this is wrong too but when you have an idea which has a patent it does protect the patent holder. Just as a copyright protects the writer from direct copy theft. I am not an expert in johns finances so I do not know what he holds and does not so this idea is of course based on the fact that he is the patent holder.
Mr Kaufman has a point it can not be stopped the local shop in my town has stolen more ideas and sold them as his own, that is why I don't go there, this is how I fight theft!

[Bill Mullins]

So, to support John Cornelius, you are going to stop selling knockoffs of "Pen Through Anything".

Just not yet, though, you are waiting until you have [s]stolen a little more money[/s] sold a few more.

But after that, you will be honorable.

Good for you!!!

[Steve Hook]

David Kiel:

Based on your posts, I can now safely use the expression, "Now I've heard it all."

And based on your statement that you are going to proceed to sell the knockoffs of John Cornelius's pen, I can tell you, I wouldn't touch your magic business with a ten foot pole.

Continued success. Ha!

- Steve H

[Richard Kaufman]

So which magic dealers are you fellows going to buy from? Which magic dealer is not selling copies of other people's inventions? Why would you hold Mr. Kiel to a standard higher than that of any other magic dealer in the United States?

[Admin At Bigfoot]

Mr Hook, Mr Mullins, Thank you for the good luck wishes. The nice thing about open commerce is when some refuse to use your service there are so many that will.
As the administrator for Bigfoot I have to stay true to our investors, something that most do not take into account. The one thing I have noticed is how hard people fight to do the right thing. I applaud you for it, the really nice thing is you handle it exactly the way I suggested by not shopping with someone who's way of doing things do not match with your own beliefs. That is what the market of open commerce is all about.

I hope you don't think I am being sarcastic in any way, it is really not my intent. I do thank you for the good wishes.

www.bigfoot-prints.com

[Bill Mullins]

I don't buy that much new magic -- I mostly get books. But when I do buy new magic tricks, it won't be from a dealer who comes onto a forum and brags about how he is only knocking off a little.

I realize the problem is endemic to the industry. I just don't like Bigfoot's attitude -- he should show a little shame, instead of openly admitting he is selling knockoff material.

On the other hand, there are numerous works currently not in print that I'd love to get, and I hope Bigfoot will bring them out (for example -- Martin Nash's series of three books).

H&R Magic books, Bradbury Books, Denny & Lee, Andy Greget, and lecturers get most of the magic money that I spend.

[JordanB]

I agree with Richard, the problem is pervasive.

Cornelius is a magic genius. It's too bad that this open theft has become so commonplace.

Pressley Guitar got so sick after his Cigarette Thru Quarter and Copper, Brass, and Silver tricks were ripped off that he quit producing magic altogether. That's a real shame too, because I think he's still got some great material that no one will ever get to see.

[Richard Kaufman]

Not only is it pervasive, it has always been pervasive.

And Cornelius's ideas didn't come out of the blue. His Pen Through Anything uses the essential mechanics developed for a Tenyo trick many years earlier, "The Wandering Hole," and he did not ask permission to produce essentially the same pen with a stronger magnet. Ditto for his wallet that lights up so you can read a prediction through it: this is Tenyo's "Mind Scanner" simply built into a more natural object--a wallet instead of a plastic box. Again, he did not ask permission from Tenyo to produce essentially the same gimmick in a slightly different way. Yes, his products are better. No, the ideas behind them are not his.

[Admin At Bigfoot]

I don't buy that much new magic -- I mostly get books. But when I do buy new magic tricks, it won't be from a dealer who comes onto a forum and brags about how he is only knocking off a little.

I realize the problem is endemic to the industry. I just don't like Bigfoot's attitude -- he should show a little shame, instead of openly admitting he is selling knockoff material.

On the other hand, there are numerous works currently not in print that I'd love to get, and I hope Bigfoot will bring them out (for example -- Martin Nash's series of three books).

H&R Magic books, Bradbury Books, Denny & Lee, Andy Greget, and lecturers get most of the magic money that I spend.

The thing about shame is that in the begining it did not start off as any attempt to steal from anyone. The truth is the only attitude i wish to convey is honesty. The truth is I could have said yep it is the Cornelius version then shot some rip off to you in the mail. However I have openly admitted it is not his version. The fact that we carry "a knock off" was suggested to us by a marketing guy to cater to those with smaller wallets. The idea is to be able to provide for as large of spectrum in the magic comunity.
If you want to hold it against all the creative people on our team by all rights you should and I would welcome it. But the fact is simple you will without doubt miss out on some great products we have coming soon. As well as some we think are fantastic that we carry right now.
The truth is I have investors who chock down hard cash who require us to liquidate these things, once gone we can remove them, if you would like to buy one at cost so we don't have to make a profit from them send me an eMail your help in speeding this along would be appreciated by so many I am sure.

[000]

This is a confusing business.........some people are upset that Bigfoot is selling a Cornelius item, which as RK pointed out, he himself copied without permission from the folks at Tenyo.

As for Bigfoot's investors I hope they are not reliant on selling a few Pens thru anything to stay afloat.

[Richard Kaufman]

There is nothing straightforward about credits or magic dealers. Welcome to the world of magic.

[absoulute]

The hipocrisy in this thread is unbelievable.

[NCMarsh]

So which magic dealers are you fellows going to buy from?

Denny Haney.

[Jonathan Townsend]

The hipocrisy in this thread is unbelievable.

Would you discuss what you see as hypocrisy in a way that would permit the rest of us to consider and perhaps even do 'better' in the future?

[Roger M.]

It's sometimes convenient to forget that what's being discussed in this thread are all "choices" that magicians have made.

By the strictest definition of the word "De-Facto", making and selling pirated effects is the standard.......but we arrived here by choice.

We can just as easily choose to not sell or purchase pirated effects, but the simple truth is that there is little or no will on the part of manufacturers, distributors, retailers, or consumers to change.

It's not complex at all, although it appears to make people feel better about it all by claiming that it's all "very complex".

People like to buy whatever they want to buy, whenever they want to buy it, and most definitely for a lower price that the original......in other words, a sizable enough majority of magicians like to buy pirated goods. It they didn't like to buy them, there wouldn't be anybody selling them.

Making it all "complex" is just trying to make it seem like it's not fixable.......when of course it is fixable (it's just a critical mass of magicians don't want to fix it).

[Admin At Bigfoot]

As for Bigfoot's investors I hope they are not reliant on selling a few Pens thru anything to stay afloat.

It is not really a quantity isue at all...
When someone invest capital into a business and notices that they do not recieve a return on the investment they tend to be unhappy. This is more so when you remove it from a site and give this item no chance at growth. Regardless if it is one pen or many.
Investors are only concerned with the money they garner from the dealings. More importantly they see any waste as a bad thing. So trying to be on both sides of things we do the best we can with what we have to work with....As I have said before things are not always black and white.

www.bigfoot-prints.com

[Tim Ellis]

Unfortunately the suggestion that Cornelius (and, I assume, other inventors) protect their effects from being copied with patents is unrealistic.

Even in the non-magic world where an item sells in the millions it is often an expensive and fruitless proposition to legally challenge the rip-off manufacturers. If you spend enough money to get them to court they will often just declare bankruptcy to avoid paying any costs then re-open as a "new" business making rip-offs and the whole process begins again.

For the magic arena, where a successful product sells thousands, the profit is already minimal so rather than spending everything you make (and more) on patents and legal protection all we can do is to try to encourage people within our community to "do the right thing".

Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.

[Richard Kaufman]

And who watches the Watchmen?

[Bill McFadden]

Actually, RK, it was "Who's Watching the Watchers", Labelle, 1976.

[Richard Kaufman]

But Bill, I was referring to the "Watchmen" as in graphic novel by Alan Moore.

[Jonathan Townsend]

Hrmm... then I guess the answer wound up black and white and red all over?

Anyone imagine Moore coming back to that guy with the ketchup stain and his hands on the diary?

[000]

Roger M, if the matter is not complex at all, are you saying
that Cornelius was the 'rightful' inventor of Pen thru anything?

[Tim Ellis]

I've heard this debate played out re: John C before.

People will argue that it's hypocritical to defend John's 'Pen Thru Anything' against rip-offs when he "ripped it off" from Tenyo's Wandering Hole.

Others say Cornelius was inspired by Kennedy's 'Cigarette thru Quarter' and got permission from John to use adapt the method.

The issue is - Is Cornelius' Pen Thru Anything, with all of it's presentational subtleties and handling ideas, different enough from either of the preceding effects?

And, if it is, you need to apply the same rule to the various 'Pen Thru Anythings' that followed.

The issue of rip-offs is certainly difficult, with many grey areas, but there are also a lot of examples of very blatant rip-offs.

See here http://magicfakers.blogspot.com/

And see here for interesting info about the pens: http://magicref.tripod.com/magref/artpen.htm

[000]

A great site Tim, and quite extensive on Pen thru anything. Thank you.

[Richard Kaufman]

If you were the guy from Tenyo who invented "Wandering Hole," in which a pen divided in two and held together by a magnet penetrates a piece of plastic, you might be less inclined to be so forgiving.

[Richard Kaufman]

Actually, let me rephrase that, he's Japanese so he would probably say, "Okay."

[NCMarsh]

From Tim's Blog:

Here is the story direct from John himself:


"The Tenyo Wandering Hole was a piece of plastic with a moveable hole. Sure it included a pen with magnets but I doubt you could do the pen through anything with that pen. If you could, Tenyo had about ten years to put the trick out.The inspiration for the pen through anything came from John Kennedy's cigarette through coin.Before I marketed the pen through anything I asked John Kennedy if this would bother him. He told me it would not bother him at all, because it was two different effects using two different objects."

[Richard Kaufman]

I understand what John wrote, but the fact is that it was a very widely marketed item, not even remotely obscure. He definitely improved it by putting very strong magnets in it, but Pen Through Anything is an improvement of the pen from Wandering Hole--that's what it is. And if it was the only Tenyo item it might be easy to dismiss, but it's not, since the folks at Tenyo were pretty unhappy to see John use their trick Mind Scanner as the basis for another item as well.

[Jonathan Townsend]

Glad to read we are getting to a question about selling engineering improvements of someone's product without permission.

For a TV show, making a bill gaff for the Wandering Hole trick might be cute. Also a chance to explore having the hole wind up in a different place.

So who might one ask about making up such an item? Or credit to make sure its provenance is kept intact?