Why do people think it's okay to upload magic DVDs?

[David Scollnik]

"The police can't shut it down because he's not breaking the law."

That's not quite the way I read it. The article seems to say that the local police have no jurisdiction, but the site is thought to be breaking federal laws and the federal authorities are preparing to act. Time will tell.

Update ... I see today's newspaper reports that the guy behind the website faces charges and is due before court later this week ... its not clear how this relates to the website exactly, except that the charges have to do with using telecommunications to harass:

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/ ... 62,00.html

[Tim Ellis]

No, this has been an issue for over a week here in Australia. Federal law hasn't been broken. They are "investigating ways to close down his site". If he had broken the law, the site would be shut down immediately. I believe they would love to charge him with "using telecommunications to harass", but he's not harassing anyone on the site, the anonymous users are. (A bit like the pirate sites who never actually upload any copyright content themselves).

This has provoked a lot of community outrage in Australia and, as a result, they are trying to change the laws. (Hey? Isn't that something Richard said on page 1 of this thread??? That in order to stop piracy the community needs to demand laws be changed??!!)

The charges the guy faces are to do with him assualting an ex-girlfriend. Unrelated to the website. Though it does say a lot about his character.


To quote today's story:


The self-described defender of free speech faces charges including unlawful imprisonment, stalking, threats to inflict injury, threats to damage property, threats to kill, criminal damage and using telecommunications to harass.

The alleged victim is believed to be Mr Pallant's ex-girlfriend, and the alleged offences occurred between late 2007 and early 2008.

"Half of Victoria is after me, they want to close down the site," Mr Pallant said yesterday. "I'm not the one making threatening comments, other people are."

Although Victoria Police says it is powerless to take action against Mr Pallant over his involvement in the website, federal police are believed to be investigating ways to close the site down.

[JHostler]

Notwithstanding information covered by contract and regulation (e.g., HIPPA & FERPA), there is no constitutional right - in the U.S., at least - to privacy or confidentiality. Public information (names, addresses, etc.) is public information. Libel is libel. So much of this boils down to common decency... of which pirates are completely UNWORTHY.

[Jim Maloney]

How about this as a solution.

Magic shops put their DVDs all sitting out on the counter.

People can help themselves and only leave money for the DVD if they are genuine buyers.

Who knows? That business model didn't seem to hurt Radiohead when they released "In Rainbows".

-Jim

[JHostler]

How about this as a solution.

Magic shops put their DVDs all sitting out on the counter.

People can help themselves and only leave money for the DVD if they are genuine buyers.

Who knows? That business model didn't seem to hurt Radiohead when they released "In Rainbows".

-Jim

Wanna hear how well that model works in our arena? PM me - I know from personal experience..!

[Jim Maloney]

Why not just post the info here? I'm sure I'm not the only one who would be interested.

-Jim

[JHostler]

Why not just post the info here? I'm sure I'm not the only one who would be interested.

-Jim

OK:

* Rauschenberg Effect e-book... page 6 pitched the virtual tip jar (Paypal)
* Approx. 500 downloads
* Four recipients responded w/ non-monetary quid pro quo (primarily their own e-books)
* Four recipients contributed cash - topping out at $45

Was the material unworthy? Beats me... but the reviews were fairly positive. In any case, had it not been a "labor of love," I'd be mighty upset!

[Richard Kaufman]

I think the lesson to be learned (if there are any, and this is only one of the possible lessons) is that people won't pay for something if they don't have to.

[JHostler]

True, to a point - and, fortunately, I embarked on the project with few illusions (pun intended). But I pity the poor soul who thinks the "Radiohead model" holds any financial promise in our field.

[Tim Ellis]

That business model didn't seem to hurt Radiohead?

"In October 2008, a report from Warner Chappell revealed that although most people paid nothing for the download, pre-release sales were more profitable than the total money from sales of Hail to the Thief (their previous album). The report also stated that the discbox sold 100,000 copies."

"Warner Chappell concluded that the new release style was a financial success, but did not reveal whether Radiohead plan to release an album in a similar way in the future."

Read this article
http://www.nme.com/news/radiohead/40444
and you'll realise Warner Chappell's statement was hype.

"Warner Chappell and Radiohead's management were monitoring the average price daily, and was prepared to cancel the download facility if the average price became too low."

"The staggered online release of the album began at about 5:30 GMT on 10 October, but on 10 December 2007, the official digital download was no longer made available."

If it really worked for Radiohead, will they do it again for their next album?

Reports say they sold 100,000 discbox copies... and a total of 1.2million albums (that's 1.1 million digital downloads) how many more would they have sold if they hadn't offered it as a download as well?

No-one can say.

Now that was done in 2007 - why hasn't every other big name artist tried it since?

[M. Yandorf]

Don't forget live shows...
There is money to be made by selling CD's, but the real money is in the live shows.

I'm a professional musician and let me tell you the real money is in live shows. I'm happy to give away free CD's it's great promotion.

[Tim Ellis]

An interesting point:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Do_music_arti ... h_CD_sales

"Bands certainly make more money from concerts. Most major label contracts only pay a small fraction of each CD-- there are many, many reductions taken from the artist's royalties. So unless your CD sells millions of units, you're not going to make much. For live performances, however, the artist keeps most of the money.
Basically this can be extended to the debate about pirating digital music: it's not going to kill the artist, it's only killing the record companies.
Here's a great article on the subject:
http://www.musiclaw.info/contractbasics.html "


However, as a performing magician, you are always aware of your "shelf life". You can only keep performing for so long. It would be nice to think that you could earn a living from royalties of DVD sales once you retire (as many musicians and actors have in the past). But perhaps the pirates have put an end to our retirement plans...

[mrgoat]

I think the lesson to be learned (if there are any, and this is only one of the possible lessons) is that people won't pay for something if they don't have to.

Or, another way of looking at it, is that people refuse to pay for something they think is overpriced, not available in formats they want, and not easily downloadable so steal it. (Napster, kazaa etc).

They the industry changes everything. Releases individual tracks for 99 cents and makes it VERY VERY easy to buy.

Then legal digital sales go through the roof.

It's very very very easy now to steal mp3s. My mother could do it.

However, now it's also very very easy to legally buy mp3s with one click thanks to iTunes.

So, why on EARTH are so very many people stupidly PAYING for music when they could just as easily steal it I wonder?

[Tim Ellis]

So, why on EARTH are so very many people stupidly PAYING for music when they could just as easily steal it I wonder?

These are not the stupid people, they are the small percentage (compare legal vs illegal download numbers) who want to do the right thing.

They're the same people who take a newspaper and leave money in the jar, as opposed to those who just take the paper.

[000]

Taking the idea of an aggregator forward IANA will be accepting applications later this year for new TOP LEVEL DOMAIN NAMES.( eg .com ,.org .museum)
This time it could be by Company's or cities/communities/themes
Therefore no more magic.com here comes .magic or .heineken
All you need is a few bucks (estimated app fee of $185 000, an annual IANA fee of $25 000, mandated systems costs of $50 000 to $1million per annum) and the aggregator's domain is in position.

[JHostler]

They the industry changes everything. Releases individual tracks for 99 cents and makes it VERY VERY easy to buy.

Then legal digital sales go through the roof.

Digital sales rise, but physical sales decline more. Short memory, Damian.

Hey, Damian - If you believe so much in this model, put your money were your mouth is. Write a 100-page magic book, just like I did. Then give it away, just like I did, and watch the cash roll in. Until then, your counsel holds a fair market value of approx. $.00.

[mrgoat]

These are not the stupid people, they are the small percentage (compare legal vs illegal download numbers) who want to do the righ

Please explain how one can compare legal vs illegal downloads when there are no figures for illegal downloads.

Thanks.

[mrgoat]

They the industry changes everything. Releases individual tracks for 99 cents and makes it VERY VERY easy to buy.

Then legal digital sales go through the roof.

Digital sales rise, but physical sales decline more. Short memory, Damian.

Hey, Damian - If you believe so much in this model, put your money were your mouth is. Write a 100-page magic book, just like I did. Then give it away, just like I did, and watch the cash roll in. Until then, your counsel holds a fair market value of approx. $.00.

Where did I say you should give away your book John?

I'm really sorry not many people bought your book. Maybe they didn't think there was value in it, maybe they didn't like you, maybe you called them a little prick, maybe you didn't market it properly, maybe you missed out the point of giving away part of your content. So many variables it's impossible to judge your first foray into giving away content as a failure.

Did you engage the audience? Did you set up a blog or forum where people could chat about the tricks in your book? Did you do a podcast where you dem'd the routines? Did you offer any reason for them to pay? Did you ask them to pay repeatedly? Did you offer them something extra if they did pay? Did you get any PR for it in the trades or sites? Did you really plan out how to convert free downloaders into paying customers? Did you engage in a email marketing campaign to win them back?

Trent Reznor gave away half of his last album. He also gave away the individual unmixed tracks in Logic and Garageband formats so people could remix and muck about with them. He also cleverly sold very limited edition box sets with VERY limited numbers of his original artwork and other things a fan would want and be prepared to pay for. He made 750k in 3 days.

Many many authors are giving away their full book for free online and selling OUT of hard copies.

Read about the success authors have giving away their content here.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/booksbl ... okgiveaway

"In a culture that values material success so highly, can authors who give their work away for free be taken seriously?

The answer, it turns out, is yes - if such authors are already successful. The evidence comes from the sizeable number of eminent authors who are already releasing their work online: a movement that ranges from award-winning, internationally successful science fiction writers like Charles Stross, Jo Walton and Cory Doctorow, to literary lights such as Jonathan Lethem and the Nobel laureate Elfriede Jelinek.

Examples abound. Peter Watts's acclaimed novel Blindsight languished unread and unsold in bookstores until he released it online; he credits its subsequent success to the resulting publicity boost. Baen Books has made a entire library of free novels available on its website; their conclusion is "exposure in the Baen Free Library will generate more sales than it will lose." Cory Doctorow releases all of his books online on the same day they're published on paper, and intends to keep doing so for the rest of his career."

So clearly it does work. But it didn't work in your one, solitary case.

If I published books I would definately, in a heartbeat, make it available for free download. But I would do a lot of marketing to convert those free downloads into sales.

[JHostler]

Large-scale models for a small-scale industry with extremeley low "paid circulation." Brilliant!!!

[Richard Stokes]

I think the tethered goat has a point.
File-sharing downloads gives you access to all kinds of fascinating music and you'd be a fool not to take advantage of this technology.
For example, if you're a 'completist' Dylan fan, you can chase down his obscure bootleg recordings.
Bob's not gonna go broke over this. He doesn't need a second mansion in Scotland. (Indeed, there's a well-known anecdote that as an up and coming folk guitarist he once nicked several LPs from a friend's valuable record collection.)
Nowadays, we don't need to do this. We can indulge in a form of theftless scavenging.
Dangermouse even wants us to 'steal' his work. See for example The Grey Album, his reworking of the Beatles' White Album and Dark Night of the Soul, his collaboration with David Lynch. EMI have tried to block release of these music projects.
I really like the way Dangermouse takes riffs and instrumentals from the Beatles, then jolts us with his rap lyrics.
No-one's gonna shed tears for EMI. They leeched millions from the Beatle records.

Having said this, I would like to emphasize that I purchase my magic dvds the conventional way - by PayPal.

[mrgoat]

Gee, all that effort for a model Radiohead and others have ditched. I'm afraid you're behind the curve, Damian. And once again, you've applied large-scale models to an extremely small-scale industry. The more you talk, the less it seems you know. Keep going!!!

So nothing interested you in the guardian link about all the authors giving away their books for free? Surprising...

Why can't one learn from other content producers exactly? Do you really think it's not worth looking at how others are making a fortune via digital legal downloads?

TV, film, music, software, adult, etc all are trying to do what you want to do. Maximise profits, minimise theft.

Interesting, if shortsighted, POV.

Radiohead:

Days after announcing the album's completion, Radiohead released In Rainbows as a digital download that customers could order for whatever price they saw fit. Upon its retail release, In Rainbows entered the UK Album Chart and the U.S. Billboard 200 at number one; by October 2008, it had sold more than three million copies worldwide in both digital and physical formats. The album earned widespread critical acclaim, and was ranked as one of the best albums of 2007 by several publications. In 2009, the record won two Grammy Awards for Best Alternative Music Album and Best Special Limited Edition Package.

...

The week of its retail release, In Rainbows peaked at number one on the UK Album Chart,[66] with first week sales of 44,602 copies.[67] The album entered the Billboard 200 at number 156 due to street date violations, but reached number one on the chart the following week. The record sold 122,000 copies in the United States in its first week of official release, according to SoundScan.[68] In October 2008, the band's publisher Warner Chappell Music Publishing revealed that the album had sold three million copies (including digital and physical format sales) since the album's physical release in January.[69] The vinyl edition of In Rainbows was the top selling vinyl album of 2008.[70]

No, nothing to learn there, clearly.

[Dustin Stinett]

I've had it with this pissing match between John Hostler and MrGoat (Damian). I can't even tell which side of the argument either of you fall on anymore. As far as I can tell, you're arguing just for the sake of it. Please stop this childish BS.

Dustin

[Richard Kaufman]

Yes, please cease and desist. I don't want to have to lock this thread since there's a valuable discussion somewhere in here.

[JHostler]

I've had it with this pissing match between John Hostler and MrGoat (Damian). I can't even tell which side of the argument either of you fall on anymore. As far as I can tell, you're arguing just for the sake of it. Please stop this childish BS.

Dustin

My position is simple, and I'm not arguing for its own sake. The economics surrounding the magic market are unique. This market is small, and doesn't necessarily lend itself to the strategies employed by major media to combat (or coexist with) piracy. IMO, it makes sense to 1) go after the pirates themselves - with absolutely no mercy, 2) "seed" electronic media so that specific customers can be linked to pirated material, and/or 3) market collectible editions - signed, numbered, etc. These are relatively practical, immediately applicable solutions - all offered during the course of this discussion.

[Richard Kaufman]

John, I agree with you: the magic world is so small that normal business plans do not function within it. And we are suffering more from internet piracy because of that. But it's obvious that you and Damien just have to agree to disagree because you've both had your say and neither has succeeded in convincing the other.

[Jonathan Townsend]

Copyright has its own legal protections.

Not sure vigilantism is going to seem too sensible to john q public when they see tricks and secrets in their bookstores and ask what's the fuss.

Still waiting for others to ask if cskate is short for (C)heap(SKATE).

Not sure gossip is such a sensible commodity as an investment in the internet age. The time value of gossip drops exponentially and the speed of light is what it is.

I like the mentor and direct contact with writers process. Maybe that's our best hope?

[000]

RK, your ( respected) decision to lay down your pen:
May I ask to what extent you ascribe the decision?

To the pirate b&stards
The recession
The (ever) diminishing market for quality magic publications

[M. Yandorf]

there are no figures for illegal downloads.

Here you go:

From the BBC:
"An estimated 1.67m people download illegal film or TV files, compared with 570,000 last year, the British Video Association's survey found"

"The loss to the UK video industry was calculated as 45m in 2003 DVD sales."

Plenty of numbers and dates here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/3692999.stm

[CraigMitchell]

Everyone agrees the problem is there ...

In summary - there seems to be 2 schools of thought:

1 - toughen sanctions & enforcement
2 - come up with other creative solutions

I personally don't believe the problem is going away - so are there any additional answers to #2 ?

[mrgoat]

there are no figures for illegal downloads.

Here you go:

From the BBC:
"An estimated 1.67m people download illegal film or TV files, compared with 570,000 last year, the British Video Association's survey found"

"The loss to the UK video industry was calculated as 45m in 2003 DVD sales."

Plenty of numbers and dates here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/3692999.stm

You really need to think about the source of those figures. Ben Goldacre, the excellent author of Bad Science, did and look what he found!

"What is the origin of this conservative figure? I hunted down the full Ciber documents, found the references section, and followed the web link, which led to a 2004 press release from a private legal firm called Rouse who specialise in intellectual property law. This press release was not about the 10bn figure. It was, in fact, a one-page document, which simply welcomed the government setting up an intellectual property theft strategy. In a short section headed "background", among five other points, it says: "Rights owners have estimated that last year alone counterfeiting and piracy cost the UK economy 10bn and 4,000 jobs." An industry estimate, as an aside, in a press release. Genius."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... -downloads

Yup. Another TOTAL GUESS!

There are no figures for piracy.

[mrgoat]

But it's obvious that you and Damien just have to agree to disagree because you've both had your say and neither has succeeded in convincing the other.

Done.

[Tim Ellis]

"What is the origin of this conservative figure?"

So Ben Goldacre is estimating (guessing) it's much bigger is he?

I guess that makes sense.

Is there anyone in here who thinks there are MORE legal downloads than pirated ones?

[Jonathan Townsend]

If you are running Windows, Linux, BeOS and most enduser software you have likely been getting and will continue to get plenty MORE legal downloads than there are pirate magic items to be found by those who seek such things.

The entire "download" thing is pretty much driven by software updates, patches, coding examples, documents posted for review...

IMHO this is more likely a reaction to our "you pay for the secret" policy in the magic market. I'd be more interested in exploring what would come of removing that factor in the social equation. Would there be MANY more returns on items found unsuitable? What would change?

[David Alexander]

Figures for illegal downloads...

I looked at a popular P2P site and saw a column labeled "Torrent File Downloads" beside each available torrent. Presumably that is the number of downloads of that particular torrent.

Doing a search for "magic" I culled the following figures in just a couple of minutes:

Dan and Dave - Cartier - 1183

Andrew Gerard - Energy Bill - 790

Oz Pearlman - Stripper - 1052

Andy Nyman - Short Punchy and Mental - 148

Wayne Houchin - Art of Magic DVD rip - 3085

And it goes on.

What we don't know is how many actually went out and bought the DVD or book or whatever after "sampling" it. My guess is a tiny fraction.

I also do not have figures on the demographic who downloaded the torrents. Possibly, the majority are kids, but there's no way to tell. So, do downloads go primarily to a demographic that won't buy legally in the first place because they don't have the money or is it done by amateurs who would otherwise buy legally if they couldn't get the material for free?

Lots of questions...few answers.

[SteveP]

With some P2P software, I know you can do this with LimeWire, you can browse the shared files on another users computer. I haven't looked at any of that in several years, but I remember that it was shocking to see hundreds and in many cases thousands of files people were sharing. Magic was only a small part of what these guys had. Aside from the expected porn, there were many ebooks about picking up women, hypnosis, making money on the internet, hacking - all the popular favorites. There's no way these guys can read, watch and absorb all of this information on a variety of subjects. They get their thrill in the acquisition.

I would make an educated guess that most of these guys are teenagers, who only have a passing interest in magic. Sure you're going to find some adults in there, as well as some magicians looking to get something for nothing, but I still stand firm in my opinion that the decline in sales is from too many products being released to a very small market and not from piracy. Add into the mix forums that allow you to sell, ebay, private sales and it's not a big leap to see why everyone is sitting on inventory.

[Jonathan Townsend]

The thrill of acquisition. I smell an insight in that phrase. From Geocacheing to trivial pursuit - the fussing over noncommercial ends as meaningful distraction. Like having a complete collection of beanie babies or all those game cards? Perhaps we are counting chickens that don't want to cross the road in the first place. Maybe there's a demographic that treats our literature like any other form of mass market content and looks at it like a scavenger hunt?

Folks might be overlooking the larger trend in socializing activities for the target market. More to loud clubs and online gaming - neither of which are the best venues for 'old school' conjuring. The market for this 'old school' work is likely saturated by the same group as was with us back in the 1970s - the baby boomers. Baby boomers know about jackets, cocktails, the expected nervous giggle when a pack of cards is produced, Dick Van Dyke, The Flintstones etc.

Today - the "new school" is about online gaming as socialization. Communication is not via parties but texting.

The baby boom is over. And there's two generations of potential customers out there who don't remember "big blue", "ma bell" or what "LSMFT" was. They don't need a few tricks to carry around to the parties they are expected to attend every month or to amuse the extended family at gatherings. They grew up with Madonna and are not going to be impressed by a Pinto Showgirl. Most are not drinkers so the cups and balls and chop cup are meaningless. Even the notion of asking their girlfriend/wife to knit sweaters for their balls is beyond pass, beyond ironic and so far beneath the fun they had at the piercing pagoda in the local mall that it's just not gonna work.

What do you want to offer folks that would bring them into the "old school"? What can you give them as far as meaning and support to go along with the "secrets" that you wish them to purchase?

And kindly don't bother about "membership in an honorable tradition" among those who spend careers stealing from each other, publicly exposing each others tricks, selling each other's tricks and fretting over nostalgia. They can smell hypocrisy from as far away as we can smell irony. These are the kids we used to call latchkey kids and we have two generations of them now - as market or "pirates".

[David Scollnik]

"I looked at a popular P2P site and saw a column labeled "Torrent File Downloads" beside each available torrent. Presumably that is the number of downloads of that particular torrent."

It would be a huge mistake to equate number of downloads to the number of people who have actually downloaded and looked at let alone used the material.

Many people download and share practically everything under the sun as a 'public service' (at least in their own eyes), but they never look at the material themselves. And on certain forms of P2P sites people will download and file share files they have no interest in, in order to earn download credit so that they can download something they really want.

[Jonathan Townsend]

Have a look at the linked item. it's pertinant.

http://xrumer-palladium.blogspot.com/20 ... rumer.html

Department of "wake up!!!" call or what? Is this where we are?

[Dave V]

Even worse, I found one "member" on one of my forums that wasn't human at all. It was an autosubmitter that would "read" the thread and post a computer generated response that hopefully would pass for human dialog. The goal was to get as many replies on as many sites as possible with the intent of steering customers to their site by way of sig lines, user profile links and carefully phrased invitations. They say it's not technically "SPAM" because the computer generated "participation" was different than blasting a cookie cutter message to everyone.

In short, it takes this Palladium program to an even higher level. You don't even have to write any messages, it even does this for you.

Eventually we won't even have to participate at all. Computers will do all the thinking for us and tell us what it wants us to know. Scary, huh?

Come to think of it, some of the messages I see on this thread look like they might have come from such a program. Maybe we're already arguing with machines, not real people.

[SteveP]

The goal was to get as many replies on as many sites as possible with the intent of steering customers to their site by way of sig lines, user profile links and carefully phrased invitations.

While this is really off-topic, one of the big reasons this is going on is to help sites with link popularity and black hat SEO techniques. The more sites that link to your site, the more popular your site can be with certain key phrases. That's why it's important for forum moderators and bloggers to make sure those comments are deleted.

Back on topic - part of the damaging aspects of the software Jonathan pointed is that now some of these guys can post links to downloads, torrents, etc FASTER. One post and you're up and running on 30 sites. Crazy!