Paul Fox and Jeff Buzzbee

[Steve Mills]

I hope this is the proper forum to ask but I'm sitting here hopping mad at JB over an Ebay auction. He hasn't had the courtesy to directly contact me, so I'm running on some speculation. A search of the web and other newsgroups shows approximately equal division between "jerk" and "lost it". I'm sure he's so busy writing refund checks to Arcane subscribers, like me, that he hasn't had time to respond.

Anyway, my auction had two booklets - the Daniel Cross Floating Seahorse routine and the Paul Fox Miracle gimmick. From what I can tell, he must be taking the position that no one can sell the Paul Fox booklet which was bought from him years ago.

Has anyone else run into this moron over this issue? It's been a long time since law school, but this is totally wrong. Unfortunately, eBay folds the tent when a "copyright" claim is made and just hoses the auction.

I also have a set of silver plated Paul Fox cups I planned to sell, which I bought from Danny Dew years ago, but I asume JB will complain there also. I'm not afraid of his bogus claims, but one is powerless with Ebay's policies and you lose your listing fee.

Anyone elso been jobbed (recently) by this guy?

Steve

[Guest]

I don't know the details, but others have had the same problems on e bay. Fortunately, everyone knows what Paul Fox cups look like. Just don't mention the Paul Fox name and you should be fine. Mention Danny Dew and put up a picture. BTW it would be interesting to have someone with a law background look into the legal agreement between Danny (universally recognized as one of the nicest guys to ever be involved in magic) and Jeff Busby - who enjoys a different reputation).

[Pete Biro]

I have a copy of a letter from Danny Dew's Lawyer (actually it was written to me) expalining the whole deal... sadly, Danny didn't want to sue Jeff, even tho the lawyer offered to do it pro-bono. According to the lawyer Jeff never fully paid for the Paul Fox material.

Jeff had a Paul Fox rising card that I was offering on ebay "knocked off" claiming I was in violation of his copyright. Huh?

Luckily the bidder contacted me and I made the sale anyway.

The buyer "happened to be a patent attorney" and he was going after ebay to get Busby's "blocking" removed.

Not sure of the outcome, but it is a cumbersome process to go through with ebay.

The key? Just don't use Paul Fox in your description. Maybe Dew Cups or Foxy cups? Anyway, sadly, this should never have happened.

Jeff BLEW a lucrative market by not finding someone to spin the cups, as he had possession of the finest set of patterns.

It isn't that hard to get cups made of a high quality. I have produced two different types of cups that are as well made (I don't do the work) as any ever made, as have other manufacturers.

Keeps smiling... :D

[Jim Riser]

For several auctions (about a year ago?) Busby was having ebay block all auctions for items that even vaguely looked like Paul Fox items. He had the wimps at ebay (and a lot of magic dealers) convinced that he owned the rights to all types of cups with curved tops. Since I was in the process of designing my own line of spun cups and had planned on introducing a few sets through ebay, I wrote them directly in advance of any sales. I explained that the designs were mine and that I had invested thousands of dollars in time and equipment to produce my cups. I told ebay that if they stopped any of my auctions due to empty Busby claims that I would take them to court - and WIN. No jury anywhere would side with Busby. He can not even prove that he fully paid for the Paul Fox "rights". I was and still am not interested in ever "discussing" this with ebay. The only way to put an end to it would be to take ebay to court - not discuss it. Ebay's wimpy policy needs changing and if it takes going to court to force this change, so be it. Ebay will end up paying court costs etc. anyway.

You certainly do not see Sears blocking all auctions of "Craftsman" tools! And they really do own the rights to the Craftsman name. It is pathetic. Ebay is as much to blame as little man Busby.

What we have is apparently a very pathetic unhappy individual who most likely destroyed the Danny Dew Paul Fox steel chucks when he tried to get the cups spun after taking things from Danny. By not going to a decent metal spinner (who might demand money on delivery), it appears that he went to an unskilled spinner who most likely ruined the chucks years ago. I heard recently that he claimed water damage against his landlord. One of the items supposedly ruined by water were the Danny Dew Chucks. I very seriously doubt this claim.

Pete mentioned calling your cups Danny Dew Cups or Foxy Cups when selling them on ebay. I've seen then shut down cups called triple bead cups or double bead cups. There was certainly no violation here. Ebay's policy needs changing.

I figured that if Busby ever gave me any trouble, I'd flood the market with spun Paul Fox look-a-like cups. It is very easy to destroy his market and I have the means to produce the copies. I could go on and on about the many ways Busby has hurt himself with his own childish attitude; but he is not worth the electrons. He is just an extremely small bump in the road called life. Just ignore it and go on- or destroy the bump.
Jim

[Steve Mills]

Originally posted by Pete Biro:

Jeff had a Paul Fox rising card that I was offering on ebay "knocked off" claiming I was in violation of his copyright. Huh?

:D

Pete,

Do you know "what" he is actually claiming, since he hasn't got the guts to actually state his claim, but sits behind Ebay's lame process and does his deeds. I was selling a booklet that i bought from him (The Paul Fox Miracle Gimmick). I'm really perplexed how , even in his twisted mind, this is a violation.

I pulled the booklet out this morning and checked for any special liscensing agreements etc. Nothing unusual, just a standard copyright.

If every author pulled this crap, there would be no used book sales. I "guess" he is claiming that no one can use the words "Paul Fox". I dunno.

Bizarre stuff.

Steve

[Dustin Stinett]

I would think that eBay would tell Busby to take a flying leap. He is, after all, restraining their trade with this nonsense. Just the other day an eBay auction for a chrome set of Fox cups I was watching “vanished.” They were around the $600 mark the last time I looked before it disappeared. They cannot collect fees on items that don't sell. Mr. Riser's “wimp” comment seems much too kind.

Dustin

PS: Speaking of cups: Mr. Riser, your mini cups are an absolute gas to use! Thanks again!

[Richard Kaufman]

Jeff Busby is a lying son of a bitch, a crook, and a thief. We all know it. He owes hundreds of us money for stuff we paid for years ago.
Who in the world still buys from this jerk?

[Pete Biro]

I know of no one buying from him... but at one point, in conversation with him, he told me his biggest market was Europe and Japan.

[Terry]

Don't know if this idea has been tossed about, but why not try to identify those individuals who have been ripped off by Busby and then either filing a class action suit against him or having mail fraud charges filed against him?

Even if there is no money recovered, maybe a judgement to shut him down could be reached.

Just a thought.

[Jim Riser]

Terry;
How about those who have been ripped off getting together and notifying the INS. Perhaps we could get Busby deported as an "undesirable"? The current timing and political climate seem good for success with this plan.
Jim
:D

[Terry]

Jim, your plan sounds like the last resort if no money can be recovered. I'm sure no one would miss him. :D

[Jeffrey Cowan]

Guys: private litigation (as opposed to getting the government to prosecute charges for statutory violations) would be difficult and/or impractical for several reasons. First, many of the complaints against Busby likely are barred by the statute of limitations, which is the deadline one has to file a lawsuit so that people and the courts are not tied up with ancient/stale claims. In California, for example, one has 2 years to sue for breach of oral contract, four years to sue for breach of written contract, and three years from the discovery of fraud to sue for fraud.
Second, litigation is very expensive and time consuming -- and the stakes here probably do not warrant it on a purely economic basis. You would have a hard time finding a lawyer to take these kinds of claims on a contingency basis given the stakes. Third, a class action might be problematic because it requires that people have suffered the same harm; e.g., being exposed to the same toxic chemical or suffering losses trading the same manipulated stock. Fourth, even if you could get a large judgment against Busby, you don't know whether Busby has enough money to satisfy it, and you still have to find those assets in a form that are reachable. [Think OJ Simpson and the huge civil judgment against him. Much of it can't be collected because of how OJ structured his investments.] Who wants to spend thousands (if not tens of thousands) of dollars on a judgment that proves worthless because it's uncollectible for whatever reason?

Don't construe these comments as advice about any one's own specific claim; it's just "educational analysis" about the problems in general with suing over these kinds of disputes. Of course, anyone with a recent claim who is in Idaho while its small claims court is open might have other options. Bob Farmer might know of some local lawyers there who can give appropriate advice.

[Richard Kaufman]

Even if a lawyer could be found to accept the case on a contigency basis (which won't happen), someone would have to pay for all the court costs, such as deposing witnesses. It could easily cost $25,000 just for the court costs!
Busby is a very canny crook--he has moved about as far away as humanly possible from any pissed-off customer who might come looking for his money.

[John Pezzullo]

Are the following things still legal in the United States?

-placing a bounty on someone's head?
-organisng a 'posse'?
-tarring & feathering?

[Terry]

-placing a bounty on someone's head? /QUOTE]
Today, Bounty Hunters go after bond/loan defalt skippers and not censored magic dealers.

-organisng a 'posse'?

Today, this is more of a gang related term.

-tarring & feathering?

Ahh, now there's a nice picture. Have to do it under cover because censored could have anyone arrested for assault(?) or sue them for embarrassment.

[Blair Marshall]

Note to Steve:
I was going to e-mail you this note, but you do not list an e-mail. I would like to know how you make out (made out) with the sale of your silver plate set of Fox (oops!!) cups. I have 3 sets (copper, chromed and silver plate) all interchangeable and in excellent condition. (Also totally interchangeable with Busy Bs' set) I have never seen a silver plate set up for sale. I also have another smaller silver plate set from the 50s' which were slighty smaller (more bullet shape then themos top) but supposedly Paul Fox also. Did anyone produce for Fox other than Danny Dew???

Would like to hear from you.

Blair Marshall
"ShaZzam!"
Http://www.shazzamshow.com

[Steve Bryant]

I was looking something up in some old Geniis last night and came across the ads for Paul Fox cups. Danny Dew marketed them for $15.00 a set. Magic Inc. also carried them at that price.

[Jim Riser]

Blair;
I have often wondered what happened to the Shazzam Show. I was fortunate enough to have caught John Daniel do it in the late 1960's. Excellent show then and it has obviously been added to since those earlier days.

Regarding some history on the Paul Fox Cups, please see:
http://www.jamesriser.com/Cups/PF_DDHistory.html

[Blair Marshall]

Steve: Did you ever sell you set???

Blair
"ShaZzam!"

[Michael Edwards]

Originally posted by Blair Marsahll:
I also have another smaller silver plate set from the 50s' which were slighty smaller (more bullet shape then themos top) but supposedly Paul Fox also. Did anyone produce for Fox other than Danny Dew???

That sounds like a Conrad Haden-made set.

[Steve Mills]

Update -

At my age, I should accept that bastards like Jeff Busby always seem to win! Remember, I was trying to sell the Paul Fox Miracle Gimmick in the auction that he trashed. I sent Busy FIVE emails and never received any reply. I seriously wanted to understand what the claim was. I know there was no legal basis, the son of a bitch is just an obstructionist.

I also have gone round and round with Ebay and if I'm will to sign my life away and submit myself to the jurisdiction of District Courts far away, the MAY let me repost. I declined.

Today I tried to reach him by phone and got some woman who, obviously, had received this call before. I was told to go to Ebay and read the copyright page. I pushed and pushed about what "exactly" was the claim. They know they have the upper hand, given Ebays terrible policies in these matters, and I got no where. I did get a rise out of her when I mentioned the rights acquired by "partial payment". She quickly told me that she know the whole story and that wasn't true. Must be his mother.

I also asked why they didn't, at least, have an "about me" page explaining their claims. It was taken down "for revision".

That's enough - thanks for listening fellers, its kinda therapeutic.

I still have the cups and am trying to figure out which bag goes with them. I have one that is bright red, one that is turquoise and one maroon. I believe it's the bright red one, but not sure.

[Richard Kaufman]

My set didn't have a bag, but Jeff Busby's does: that bag you spoke to was his wife Vicki.

[Pete Biro]

Vicki is more than difficult to try to talk to on the Ameche... for sure... My boss (who is also a mage) tried about six times to get on the waiting list for PF cups (from Busby) and she would neither quote a price, a time, how long the list was...NUTTIN...

Like Osama Bin Laden (who I believe has met his maker) it is best to try to not do any business with him and to be evasive by spelling Pawl Foxx or whatever code word you want on ebay or anywhere.

Ptoooooieeeeeeeee

:mad:

[Scott]

One heck of an interesting thread. I haven't been around magic long enough to know any history behind these 2, I only know the name "Paul Fox Cups". Can someone please explain (without blowing a gasket or having to take medication), what exactly is the deal?

1)What do they own that you can't sell?

2)What's so special about them?

3)Presuming they are nice, special cups, can't they be reproduced without infringement, since there are so many other cups out there? (I'm guessing at this point what the issue is)

4)What else are these guys involved in, so that I make sure I never buy anything from them?

Thank you

[Steve Mills]

Scott,

I strongly suggest that you look at Jim Riser's magnificent article cited above for some great cup history.

JB - Not much to say except he is a lying jack ass, incapable of human decency.

Nuff said....

PS I believe he is somewhere in Idaho, but not sure. Just as long as he is far away from me.....

[Guest]

I had Busby shut down an auction of mine when I sold the Paul Fox Rising Cards. I got nowhere with Busby or with ebay, so I used ebay's "Buy it Now" function. I set a price I wanted, received a winning bid, and completed the auction before Busby knew about it.

That's one way you can get around him and the wimps at ebay. It worked like a charm for me. :)

[Pete Biro]

I did the same on ebay using Buy it Now and made the sale before they could pull it, even though Jeff tried to STOP the sale.

[martinka]

Another option is to consign your old Paul Fox items to the Martinka auction ( www.martinka.com ). Email magic@martinka.com for details.

It's too late for next week's sale (Where you'll find a Paul Fox Card Rise offered), but there will be another sale in September.

Ted

[David Alexander]

Jim Riser is a terrific guy. My old Danny Dew cups had been dropped many times when I was working in a restaurant with a tile floor and were slightly out of round. For an extremely nominal fee Jim "re-rounded" the cups and added a polish as a bonus. A good guy to do business with.
And on Jeff Busby - truly one of the "wretched of the Earth" and one of the sad cases in magic - one of the reasons Busby is able to do what he wants on eBay is his designation as an "EBay Power Seller." In eBay management's eyes that puts him a rung different from the rest of us who buy and sell on eBay.
Years ago (before eBay) I bought an expensive slate from him and received a poorly-made piece of junk that I knew wouldn't survive rehersal, let alone professional use. I sent it back for replacement and got it returned.
When I was up in Oakland I went to Busby's place and found a large biker-type who smelled bad who said Busby wasn't there. Eventually, Al Mann, whose item it was, replaced it for me.
It only took that experience never to deal with Busby again. His best trick is staying in business all these years. An amazing accomplishment.

[Blair Marshall]

Note to David: Did you ever perform in the clubs up here in Montreal. Seems I remember an
Alexander from CA who did? I have a cups question if you are.

Blair Marshall
"ShaZzam!"

[David Alexander]

Hello Blair,

Yes, probably me. In 1969 I worked Montreal with two different shows. I missed a huge hurricane down in Biloxi, Mississippi where I had worked a month or two before.
Herb Morrissey made some coin pails for me and still produces them, as I understand.

[Blair Marshall]

O.k so I am on the right track. That is about the time I started to become seriously interested in magic and spent Saturdays at Herbs'. I believe I met you there. I have one of Herbs' coin pails (Double droppers) but the question about the cups is, did Herb ever produce a set of large steel, chrome plated chick cups for you??? I have heard your name mentioned in conjunction with the set I have, and I believe Herb only had a few sets made by his spinner. Would like to hear if you know the story.

Thanks.

Blair Marshall
"ShaZzam!"

[David Alexander]

While I was working the Frakson act in Montreal at the time I was not the person Herb made the large chick cups for. Indeed, he didn't actually make my coin pail, but only the gimmicks I added to the sides of a real champagne bucket from a commercial winery...which is why mine looks authentic...because it is.

I had three buckets and Herb made gimmicks for all of them, attached by small bolts. Thirty plus years later they all still work just fine...but he didn't make any large chick cups for me. I've performed the Cups and Balls professionally thousands of times, but I've either used my Paul Fox cups or my Ross Bertram cups. While interested and know the technique, I've never performed with live chickens.

How has my name become attached to this? You have my curiosity aroused.

[Blair Marshall]

Only through faint and distant memories (and sometimes foggy too!). It seemed that your name had been mentioned, perhaps when discussing "special" work Herb did for some magicians. That is why I posed the question to you, to see if you knew more.

Thanks.

Blair Marshall
"ShaZzam!"
http://www.shazzamshow.com

[Guest]

Sorry to drag out this old thread, but I just wanted to add my experience to the "record" re: Jeff Busby terminating eBay auctions.

I went through the exact same experience that Steve Mills did (hey, my last name is Mills...?!), but I dare say my circumstance was even more absurd.

I was selling one of Allan Ackerman's A-1 videos that contains an effect called "Impromptu Paul Fox" which is described as a method for achieving the same effect without the marketed gimmick. ***BOOM*** Auction terminated.

I also pursued answers, made the same useless phone call to the Busby Asylum, and got ZERO response. Eventually I arranged with eBay to relist the auction with "Impromptu Paul Fox" removed from the listing. Sold fine.

eBay takes the easy way out in these matters as they have no interest in being liable for anything illegal. Definitely a "baby with the bathwater" situation.

Good luck with those Pall Phawkes auctions!

Bob Mills