Why glossy pages?

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PickaCard
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Why glossy pages?

Postby PickaCard » October 23rd, 2021, 5:30 pm

As I sit here reading Mr. Jennings Takes it easy with my desk lamp reflecting off the pages into my eyes, I can't help but think about what Roberto Giobbi recently pointed out in a recent podcast with regards to his choice of non-glossy paper for his new book Sharing Secrets. Essentially, Giobbi observed how the glossy paper looks great but is not reader friendly as most people read at night with a desk light which reflects off the glossy pages and tires out the reader much sooner than the dull paper books.

Why have many authors or publishers made this choice? I have a much greater ease in reading The Berglass Effects than Mr. Jennings Takes it Easy as I don't have to angle my light to bounce off the wall instead of the written pages.

I hope future publications take Giobbi's very astute observation in mind when deciding the appropriate paper for their next magic book.

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Why glossy pages?

Postby Richard Kaufman » October 23rd, 2021, 6:55 pm

When you have photographs you need to print on glossy paper to reduce dot gain. Simple rule of publishing.
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Edward Pungot
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Re: Why glossy pages?

Postby Edward Pungot » October 23rd, 2021, 8:24 pm

I love reading at night and am also very sensitive to artificial bright lights as it is a bit of a strain on the eyes regardless of the finish of the paper. I found that wearing light/medium shade of sunglasses to do the trick. There are special LED soft white bulbs and fancy non-glare reading lights. But why bother? There are also those funky yellow tinted non-glare night glasses that people use for night driving, but I've never tried those since the light shades I found at the swap meet for a dollar works perfectly without being too dark.

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Re: Why glossy pages?

Postby Tarotist » October 23rd, 2021, 8:35 pm

I only read in the daytime so I rather like glossy pages. I would read the various Vernon books first with glossy paper then no longer glossy paper and then glossy paper once again. I remember when it was no longer glossy feeling very disappointed and great relief in seeing things glossy again.

Not that I practice what I preach of course. My own books are not printed on glossy paper. You will all have to put up with my glossy writing instead.

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Re: Why glossy pages?

Postby Tarotist » October 24th, 2021, 9:02 am

I was actually serious about the Vernon books. When they first came out and published by Harry Stanley there were glossy paper and somehow they gave the feeling of authority to the books. Someone like Vernon SHOULD have glossy paper! The rest of pedestrian magic people can indeed be non-glossy as befits their position in life.

I remember studying the Vernon books avidly when I was a kid. I would read them in school and the teachers thought I was studying something else. The glossy paper had something to do with my enthusiasm. Then somehow Supreme Magic took over the publications and made them non glossy and somehow it cheapened the books and made them dull and made my enthusiasm wane. Then L & L published the Vernon books again with glossy paper I was happy once again.

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Re: Why glossy pages?

Postby Edward Pungot » October 24th, 2021, 10:26 am

Later reprints of the Vernon books done by L&L were on non-glossy paper. For economical or for reasons addressed in the original post.

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Re: Why glossy pages?

Postby Richard Kaufman » October 24th, 2021, 12:33 pm

Edward Pungot wrote:Later reprints of the Vernon books done by L&L were on non-glossy paper. For economical or for reasons addressed in the original post.


I believe you are incorrect.
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Re: Why glossy pages?

Postby MagicbyAlfred » October 24th, 2021, 12:39 pm

I greatly prefer glossy, and I believe that most magicians who love books do, as well. In addition to what Richard pointed out about photographs, there is a certain gravitas to books with glossy pages, and they ooze quality.

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Re: Why glossy pages?

Postby Edward Pungot » October 24th, 2021, 1:56 pm

When they first were reprinted by L&L they were glossy. But later, much later, reprints were done on non-glossy. I recall perusing the shelves at Aladdin Books in Fullerton, CA and seeing the two options on both the Ganson and Minch tomes. The glossy earlier reprints fetching higher prices.

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Re: Why glossy pages?

Postby Richard Kaufman » October 24th, 2021, 8:57 pm

I have never seen any L&L printings of these that are not on glossy paper. L&L also lost the right to all the Supreme books at some point.
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Q. Kumber
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Re: Why glossy pages?

Postby Q. Kumber » October 25th, 2021, 3:30 am

The giant compilation of the Stanley Vernon books published by L&L is on non-glossy paper.

Also the copyright of those books returned to Excalibur (the name used by Barry Laymond who owned Supreme at the time) in either 2014 or 2016. I suspect that when Supreme started having financial problems in the early 90's, Laymond leased the rights to L&L for a set period of years. All those Vernon books have the expiry year printed on the copyright page.

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Re: Why glossy pages?

Postby Edward Pungot » October 25th, 2021, 10:28 am

I just pulled out my L&L copy of Vernon's Ultimate Card Secrets. It's printed on non-glossy paper. I held off buying Ultimate Secrets when L&L had them available because I had already owned the red book version put out by Harry Stanley in England. I did purchase L&L's reprints of Vernon's Book of Magic and the Trilogy earlier on and those are printed on heavier glossy paper. So I just assumed when I did finally get around to purchasing a matching copy of Ultimate Secrets to compliment the two I already had, that the non-glossy versions were at the tail-end of the subsequent reprints, perhaps maybe just prior to the compendium volume that was eventually put out by L&L that was also on non-glossy.

BTW: My first edition red bound Stanley Unique Magic Studio copy of Ultimate Secrets is on non-glossy as well.

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Re: Why glossy pages?

Postby Richard Kaufman » October 25th, 2021, 11:59 am

Surprising about the non-glossy paper. That's a pity. The Harry Stanley version of Ultimate Card Secrets was always on non-glossy paper which is one reason the photos looked like hell.

British law is that the copyrights revert to the original holders when a company goes bankrupt. Thus it is possible that all the books might be owned by the heirs of Ganson and Vernon. They are all available as ebooks on Lybrary.com
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PressureFan
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Re: Why glossy pages?

Postby PressureFan » October 25th, 2021, 12:14 pm

Glossy ebooks?

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Q. Kumber
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Re: Why glossy pages?

Postby Q. Kumber » October 25th, 2021, 12:45 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:

British law is that the copyrights revert to the original holders when a company goes bankrupt.


I am not sure if that is true (but it might be). It was the explanation given by Martin Breese for digitising The Gen. When Martin digitised The Magigram, I asked him how he got the copyright. He said that he hadn't but would be putting some money aside from each sale, should a copyright holder emerge.

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Re: Why glossy pages?

Postby Chris Aguilar » October 25th, 2021, 1:08 pm

Love glossy pages.

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Eoin O'hare
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Re: Why glossy pages?

Postby Eoin O'hare » October 25th, 2021, 2:12 pm

Stars of Magic, I think it was the Robbin's reprint, is a perfect example of why you should NOT print on non glossy paper. I gave up on it and bought an original printing.
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erdnasephile
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Re: Why glossy pages?

Postby erdnasephile » October 25th, 2021, 2:30 pm

Part of the reason I snapped up the early L & L Vernon reprints was that I have always disliked the cheaper paper stock and glued bindings used in the Supreme editions. They are like night and day when compared side by side.

I seldom read with a desk lamp, so I love high quality glossy paper. It's hard to imagine the most beautiful book I own (Tenyoism) without it.

I also favor those wonderful liquid-coated dust jackets (which seem out of favor in some quarters), gold stamping, beautiful endpapers, sturdy notched slipcovers, and those ribbon markers. Not a fan of deckle edges or perfect binding. YMMV, of course.

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Re: Why glossy pages?

Postby Tarotist » October 25th, 2021, 2:30 pm

As a result of this thread I just checked my book collection. I am quite alarmed to find that 90% of my books are non glossy and I haven't even noticed it up till now. I bet it is the same for everyone else here. It looks as if we are all going to have to put up with non glossy whether we like it or not. I suppose one consolation is that probably keeps the costs of the books down.

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Why glossy pages?

Postby Richard Kaufman » October 25th, 2021, 2:44 pm

Most of the books I've published are not on glossy paper because they are mostly illustrated with drawings rather than photos.
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erdnasephile
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Re: Why glossy pages?

Postby erdnasephile » October 25th, 2021, 3:14 pm

RK: Two questions on publishing books please:
1. Out of all of the fancy stuff you can add to a book when publishing it, which are the most costly?
2. Where does one go to learn how to design books? I've seen courses advertised on line, but is such a thing included in formal courses of study at university? (i.e., something akin to industrial design?).
Thanks!

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Re: Why glossy pages?

Postby Richard Kaufman » October 25th, 2021, 6:55 pm

Slipcase is the most costly.
I have no idea where you learn how to design books today. But your question is a large one. There are many different design aspects to a book.
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Ian Kendall
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Re: Why glossy pages?

Postby Ian Kendall » October 26th, 2021, 8:00 am

I have a feeling that book layout is learned through trial and effort. If you look at the early layouts of prolific authors, there is a marked difference as time goes on (the bound editions of Magic Menu are a good example of this).

I sent a PDF of my last book to Andi for tips, and he was able to point out several glitches with a cursory look through.

Many DTP packages have templates that you can use as a starting point, and then tweak here and there until you have something that looks nice :) (I would recommend Affinity Publisher for something that is relatively easy to use, and inexpensive).

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Re: Why glossy pages?

Postby Leo Garet » October 29th, 2021, 1:37 pm

Tarotist wrote:I remember studying the Vernon books avidly when I was a kid. I would read them in school and the teachers thought I was studying something else. The glossy paper had something to do with my enthusiasm. Then somehow Supreme Magic took over the publications and made them non glossy and somehow it cheapened the books and made them dull and made my enthusiasm wane. Then L & L published the Vernon books again with glossy paper I was happy once again.


"somehow Supreme Magic took over the publications...."

Harry Stanley retired and sold everything to Edwin Hooper. All the Supreme books were poorly/cheaply produced, not just the Vernon efforts.

"Dai Vernon's Ultimate Secrets Of Card Magic," published by Stanley towards the end of Unique, was not fit to be in the same room as the earlier books. Production-wise, that is.

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Re: Why glossy pages?

Postby Tarotist » October 29th, 2021, 2:31 pm

I can't be sure but I suspect that when Harry Clarke died that was when the quality of Stanley's books declined. Harry Clarke was the one who printed all of Unique Magic Studios books. I think I vaguely remember Harry Stanley had a small room where he did his own printing for a while.

I do remember Harry saying to me all sorts of rude things about Edwin of Supreme Magic so I am amused that he sold everything to them when he retired. I suppose business is business!

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Re: Why glossy pages?

Postby Leo Garet » October 30th, 2021, 12:07 pm

Tarotist wrote:I can't be sure but I suspect that when Harry Clarke died that was when the quality of Stanley's books declined. Harry Clarke was the one who printed all of Unique Magic Studios books. I think I vaguely remember Harry Stanley had a small room where he did his own printing for a while.

I do remember Harry saying to me all sorts of rude things about Edwin of Supreme Magic so I am amused that he sold everything to them when he retired. I suppose business is business!

I think you're right about Harry Clarke. He often copped a mention in Stanley's column in "The Gen".

Now you mention it, I think the "Ultimate Secrets" was a home effort effort from the "small room".

Edwin and Harry Stanley didn't like each other, but as you say business is business and it was something towards Harry's retirement pot.

The only time I met Harry Stanley was in the early 80s at a convention in Cambridge, organised by The Pentacle Club. He had a stand and wasn't selling posters. They were beautiful prints, but too rich for my blood. Probably somebody bought a couple, but he seemed to have as many at the end of the day as he did at the start.

I don't recall if Eddie Dawes was there, but if he was he would have likely grabbed a few.

There were three conventions in Cambridge around this time. The line-ups were impressive. Alex Elmsley lectured at one, David Berglas at another. Robert Walker was there one year. He did close-up card stuff. I think he was in the US Forces at the time, somewhere nearby. "Tricks From The Tree" was his book, I think. I could be confusing myself here, though. I often do.

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Re: Why glossy pages?

Postby Richard Kaufman » October 30th, 2021, 12:13 pm

Yes, Leo, it's Tricks from the Tree.
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Re: Why glossy pages?

Postby Leo Garet » October 30th, 2021, 12:24 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Yes, Leo, it's Tricks from the Tree.

Thanks!

It's reassuring to know that some things I remember actually happened.

:)

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Re: Why glossy pages?

Postby Tarotist » October 30th, 2021, 9:07 pm

I was actually in Harry's studio not long after Harry heard that Harry Clarke died. In fact he was the one who told me about it. He seemed quite shocked by it.

My most vivid memory of Harry was when a young magician came into his magic studio and started to browse through the various Vernon books that Harry had published. Harry in sales mood said, "There will never be books like that again. I was the first one who brought Vernon over to this country you know. " Alas the young man foolishly replied, "They say Vernon is showing his age now when he performs"

That was the wrong thing to say to Harry! He was furious and responded, "Young man, you are showing YOUR age when you say something like that. Vernon has done more for magic than you will ever do in your entire life!" He then proceeded to berate the errant youth so much that the poor soul made a very rapid departure from the shop, naturally without buying anything! Harry then turned to me saying, "I can't stand people like that!"

Another time I remember the famous Eddie Joseph in the studio. He must have been visiting from India. Some other customer got bawled out by Harry for something or other and scarpered from the shop very quickly. Harry turned to us saying, "I can't stand amateur magicians!" and then went off into a back room. Eddie turned to me and quietly said, "Harry doesn't seem to realise that it is the amateur magicians who are the biggest customers and buy far, far more than the professionals do!" He was right of course............

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Re: Why glossy pages?

Postby Leo Garet » November 1st, 2021, 11:50 am

Eddie Joseph published more than several items courtesy of Max Andrews and for some time had a terrific photo-illustrated column in “Max Andrews Magic Magazine”. Glossy paper. It was called “Sleights, Moves and Subterfuges”. Eddie Joseph did at least one lecture at Andrews's Vampire's Studio on Archer Street.

Max Andrews went out of business and Harry Stanley began releasing Eddie Joseph material, much of it as per Max Andrews.

Then Stanley passed his stuff to Supreme. And they continued the Eddie Joseph material. It’s been around.

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Re: Why glossy pages?

Postby Tarotist » November 1st, 2021, 1:01 pm

I think Eddie Joseph more or less wrote the very first book on stage pickpocketing although I may be wrong. Quite a good book actually.

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Re: Why glossy pages?

Postby Leo Garet » November 3rd, 2021, 8:18 am

I bought that: “How To Pick Pockets”. Five shillings.

My schoolboy naivety deceived me into thinking there was a secret . I’ve never learned to pick pockets.

In the same format and the same price was “How Gamblers Win”. Once again my schoolboy naivety deceived me into thinking there was a secret . I’ve never learned how gamblers win. Other than by cheating. But I did enjoy the book. Some interesting stacks and stuff.

As I recall there was a “big book” of Eddie Joseph material at one stage, but whether that was Unique, then Supreme, or Supreme only is lost in the mists of my memory.

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Re: Why glossy pages?

Postby Q. Kumber » November 3rd, 2021, 10:32 am

Leo Garet wrote: As I recall there was a “big book” of Eddie Joseph material at one stage, but whether that was Unique, then Supreme, or Supreme only is lost in the mists of my memory.


Indeed there was, The Art of Eddie Joseph by Hugh Miller. Harry Stanley pub 1968
https://www.martinsmagic.com/allmagic/b ... ie-joseph/


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