Proper Use of the Pass

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mrgoat
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Re: Proper Use of the Pass

Postby mrgoat » July 15th, 2011, 2:22 am

Glenn Bishop wrote:I like to use it for a color change.

Cheers!


Yes, a turnover pass is a great color change. But I don't think that is what this thread is about.

In my opinion.

Magic Fred
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Re: Proper Use of the Pass

Postby Magic Fred » July 15th, 2011, 2:25 am

mrgoat wrote:
Glenn Bishop wrote:I like to use it for a color change.

Cheers!


Yes, a turnover pass is a great color change. But I don't think that is what this thread is about.

In my opinion.


A classic and riffle pass can also make for a pretty spiffy color change.

I wouldn't recommend the cover pass though.

Just his opinion (the guy sitting next to me of course, who else?)

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Re: Proper Use of the Pass

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 15th, 2011, 8:21 am

? table the joker; hold the pack face up; put joker on top face down; ask name of selection (do cover pass);lift away the joker to reveal the selection.

The more sneaky may want to have dupe or pseudo dupe under the selection. ;)

Proper? I guess anything but "hey watch me whip half the pack around while not seeming to move my fingers" could be considered proper in some context.
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Re: Proper Use of the Pass

Postby Magic Fred » July 15th, 2011, 8:34 am

Now I am even stronger in my conviction of not recommending a cover pass.

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Re: Proper Use of the Pass

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 15th, 2011, 10:17 am

Now that the approach has the MF stamp and whine of approval:

Using the type II pass one can: put the joker face down on the face up pack, pick up the pack and bring up to the vertical, slide the joker about halfway to the side to display its face, then bring down the deck and reveal the change of the face card using a sliding action of the joker over the face of the pack.

Thanks MF, you've inspired an application of the cover pass. For our credit/historians here's the item title:

Covered Card Change inspired by some MF.
Last edited by Jonathan Townsend on July 15th, 2011, 10:34 am, edited 0 times in total.
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Re: Proper Use of the Pass

Postby Richard Kaufman » July 15th, 2011, 10:19 am

You can do some fantastic tricks using a cover pass that can't be accomplished otherwise. A good invisible cover pass is also easier than attempting to do an invisible pass of any kind with no cover card.
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Re: Proper Use of the Pass

Postby Magic Fred » July 15th, 2011, 10:28 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:You can do some fantastic tricks using a cover pass that can't be accomplished otherwise. A good invisible cover pass is also easier than attempting to do an invisible pass of any kind with no cover card.


Agreed. But not as a color change.

Walton has a nice transposition trick using the cover pass.

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Re: Proper Use of the Pass

Postby Magic Fred » July 15th, 2011, 10:48 am

Jonathan Townsend wrote:Now that the approach has the MF stamp and whine of approval:

Using the type II pass one can: put the joker face down on the face up pack, pick up the pack and bring up to the vertical, slide the joker about halfway to the side to display its face, then bring down the deck and reveal the change of the face card using a sliding action of the joker over the face of the pack.

Thanks MF, you've inspired an application of the cover pass. For our credit/historians here's the item title:

Covered Card Change inspired by some MF.


Could this be a first? A magician shunning a deserved credit rather than claiming an undeserved one.

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Re: Proper Use of the Pass

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 15th, 2011, 11:08 am

May I buy you a coffee or a drink if we meet in person?

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Re: Proper Use of the Pass

Postby Magic Fred » July 15th, 2011, 12:07 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:May I buy you a coffee or a drink if we meet in person?


Me? Certainly. If you promise to drop that credit...

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Re: Proper Use of the Pass

Postby Glenn Bishop » July 15th, 2011, 12:31 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:If you want to see a direct effect that demonstrates how a Pass can be used for a magical effect (as opposed to a hidden control), just do what Houdini did: put the selected card face up on the center of the deck and do a Pass to bring it to the top. It took spectators' breathe away 100 years and and still does so today.

I agree - also can be used as a double lift - or a double placed face up into the center of the deck - bring the double to the top - turn it face down - and change the card - or put it in the center to bring a signed card to the top again in an ambitious card routine.

Cheers!

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Re: Proper Use of the Pass

Postby Glenn Bishop » July 15th, 2011, 12:38 pm

Glenn Bishop wrote:I like to use it for a color change.

Cheers!


mrgoat wrote:Yes, a turnover pass is a great color change. But I don't think that is what this thread is about.

In my opinion.

I was not talking about the turnover pass - however it also makes a great color change.

Magic Fred wrote:A classic and riffle pass can also make for a pretty spiffy color change.

I wouldn't recommend the cover pass though.

Just his opinion (the guy sitting next to me of course, who else?)

I think the sound of the riffle pass can add showmanship to a color change - to good effect.

Cheers!

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Re: Proper Use of the Pass

Postby Magic Fred » July 15th, 2011, 12:41 pm

Glenn Bishop wrote:
Glenn Bishop wrote:I like to use it for a color change.

Cheers!


mrgoat wrote:Yes, a turnover pass is a great color change. But I don't think that is what this thread is about.

In my opinion.

I was not talking about the turnover pass - however it also makes a great color change.

Magic Fred wrote:A classic and riffle pass can also make for a pretty spiffy color change.

I wouldn't recommend the cover pass though.

Just his opinion (the guy sitting next to me of course, who else?)

I think the sound of the riffle pass can add showmanship to a color change - to good effect.

Cheers!


Wait, whose opinion is this? I'm so confused now...

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Re: Proper Use of the Pass

Postby Glenn Bishop » July 15th, 2011, 12:58 pm

Magic Fred wrote:
Glenn Bishop wrote:
Glenn Bishop wrote:I like to use it for a color change.

Cheers!


mrgoat wrote:Yes, a turnover pass is a great color change. But I don't think that is what this thread is about.

In my opinion.

I was not talking about the turnover pass - however it also makes a great color change.

Magic Fred wrote:A classic and riffle pass can also make for a pretty spiffy color change.

I wouldn't recommend the cover pass though.

Just his opinion (the guy sitting next to me of course, who else?)

I think the sound of the riffle pass can add showmanship to a color change - to good effect.

Cheers!


Wait, whose opinion is this? I'm so confused now...

If I would be reading this thread right - perhaps yours.

Cheers!

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Re: Proper Use of the Pass

Postby Russell Davis » July 16th, 2011, 12:50 pm

One proper use of the Classic Pass is where it does a lot of heavy lifting and has no efficient substitute, as far as I know. That is 'Red and Black Aces' from The Amateur Magician's Handbook. The routine requires a fast good Pass (except once where you might use a slow bad one) during good audience direction. Final phase may benefit from a slow Invisible Turnover Pass or from face-up red and black aces for a visible transposition, a direct and magical effect (Houdini's???), as Richard wrote.

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Re: Proper Use of the Pass

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 16th, 2011, 12:59 pm

Russell, would that also be known as the "Cavorting Aces" published elsewhere, a trick on which Harvey Rosenthall recently posted some novel work.
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Re: Proper Use of the Pass

Postby David Acer » July 16th, 2011, 2:08 pm

As a B-story to this thread, I interviewed Ariel Frailich for an article that ran in the April, 2002 issue of Genii. Ariel became known in card-magic circles sometime around 1979 after attending F.F.F.F. and dazzling the cognoscenti with a truly invisible pass. It was the fulfillment of a life-long dream - to be "accepted in the inner circle" (as he put it). But that's just the beginning of the article. Ariel goes on to express the emptiness he felt when he got home from that convention, a kind of disillusionment with magic that prompted him to change his focus and, nearly 20 years later, resulted in his book, "Card Stories," which was largely about presentation. Not to say that engaging presentation can't co-exist with challenging technique, or that technique shouldn't be of interest in and of itself (I love seeing novel passes, color changes, controls, etc.), but Ariel's experience is interesting, and the interview is worth a look.
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Re: Proper Use of the Pass

Postby Russell Davis » July 16th, 2011, 3:00 pm

Jonathan,

I don't know but probably should, and would like to. Just know that Henry Hay in Handbook wrote that it was at least a century old at that time, 1950.

Presentation: For Red and Black Aces I have no presentation (which some people may consider IS a presentation) (which I may consider IS idiotic) but for Ambi Card the presentation is to talk about technique itself, mentioning an actual Derek Dingle 1970s TV performance of the Pass, then imagining a hypothetical but of course artistic Rene Lavand performance employing a 'one-handed Pass.' The truth in the presentation, a fast Pass, and the clean effect of a DL (as originally intended, I think) in the final phase, make a good team.
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Re: Proper Use of the Pass

Postby Jonathan Townsend » July 16th, 2011, 4:26 pm

Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: Proper Use of the Pass

Postby Russell Davis » July 17th, 2011, 11:44 pm

Thanks!

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Re: Proper Use of the Pass

Postby mrgoat » July 18th, 2011, 4:21 am

Glenn Bishop wrote:I agree - also can be used as a double lift -


Please can you explain how you can substitute a pass for a double lift?

Thanks.

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Re: Proper Use of the Pass

Postby mrgoat » July 18th, 2011, 5:12 am

I re-read what you put. You mean you put a double card in and pass that. So not using it "as" a double lift.

Carry on.

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Re: Proper Use of the Pass

Postby Daved » July 25th, 2011, 8:48 am

I remember attending a lecture where this phrase came out: "in my opinion the pass is not the most efficient way to bring a card to the top".

Considering that I had been using the pass very often for that purpose, it was something that shook me up.
But I realized that phrase was right. It's far more efficient to use a side steal. With the pass you are moving part of the pack to the top, with the side steal only the needed card.

Apart from that I still consider the pass an excellent "tool" to get a card to the top. Depending on the situation I use the most suitable one (many passes in books - SWE, riffle, dribble, jiggle, flourish and a pass, turnover etc. - I don't personally use the "classic" one).

Richard put down the example of making a card appear face up. The contrary can be done as well, resembling a complete vanish of the card.

I somehow think that the "proper use" is not in the purpose of the pass (you can use it for doing whatever you can accomplish with it) but in the correct time-execution of it.
I only do it when squaring the pack of cards. Not after. Maybe mine is only a distorted point of view :) but apart from that I don't see any other proper use.

Regards,
Dave

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Re: Proper Use of the Pass

Postby Seb » July 25th, 2011, 10:52 am

Hi,

I think that this thread has been very interesting and informativ, to someone who is working on the pass.


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