Pick off Pip (Dai Vernon’s Version)

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groovemaster
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Pick off Pip (Dai Vernon’s Version)

Postby groovemaster » March 18th, 2018, 7:07 am

Hello,
I’ve studied the description and photos in Lewis Ganson’s book “Dai Vernon Book of magic” (page 101). I try to get the hang of it but I’m struggling with the exact handling of the bottom card. Unfortunately there seems to be no footage on YouTube, at least nobody using the method like the professor. There are clips but these are classic palmed cards to me.
Can anybody help? Some footage of only the performance would help. Maybe somebody knows something?
Thanks in advance and cheers
Ralph


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Re: Pick off Pip (Dai Vernon’s Version)

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 18th, 2018, 11:20 am

Which sleight exactly are you having trouble with?
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Re: Pick off Pip (Dai Vernon’s Version)

Postby groovemaster » March 18th, 2018, 1:33 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Which sleight exactly are you having trouble with?

How (exactly) get to he bottom card to the top when clipped between right pinky and thumb from the point the left hands middle finger to pinky have entered the space between the two bottom card...the buckled one and the one flat at the bottom of the pack.
I have also trouble to add the card without noise but this is maybe I do it wrong.

Hope you get the point...


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Re: Pick off Pip (Dai Vernon’s Version)

Postby Leonard Hevia » March 18th, 2018, 9:02 pm

Ganson is clear in the explanation. At the point where the right hand is holding the deck with the buckled card, the left hand is shown empty palm up and the right hand deposits the deck onto the open left palm. The left 2nd, 3rd, and 4th, fingers slide between the deck and buckled card. The left 1st finger goes above and outside the buckled card and slides above the right pinky. You can see this exact moment in photo 15.

The left hand remains still cradling the deck as the right hand now lifts up with the buckled/palmed card above and a little to the right of the deck. The buckle in the card will allow it to pivot to the right a little so that the right hand can move straight up naturally as it would if it was not holding any card.

At this point, although Ganson does not imply it, the right hand should relax a bit to decrease the bend in the buckle since it is no longer required and complete the color change. I prefer to let gravity finish the job and allow the card to gently drop on the deck as my right moves to the left over it. The left fingertips will trap and settle the card. The more accurate the drop, the less the left fingertips need to adjust.

I believe Vernon devised this buckle method to eliminate the way the unnatural way the right behaves when executing the classic side steal color change. The right hand can fall into the trap of fidgeting and adjusting to get the bottom card out of the deck when doing the standard classic palm method.

As Dr. Daley pointed out, improving a move can create other problems and Vernon's solution makes the left side more angle sensitive.

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Re: Pick off Pip (Dai Vernon’s Version)

Postby erdnasephile » March 18th, 2018, 9:31 pm

Appreciate Leo's explanatory comments.

I realize this thread refers to Dai Vernon's technique, but I thought I'd mention that Geoff Latta's technique for the effect (described in wonderful detail by Stephen Minch in The NY Magic Symposium, Collection 4) is really excellent.

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Re: Pick off Pip (Dai Vernon’s Version)

Postby Leonard Hevia » March 18th, 2018, 9:54 pm

You're welcome Erdnasephile! After 40 years, my technique is combination of Vernon's move and Marlo' s Deliberate Side Steal. Instead of buckling the card so that the right can clear the left without suspicion, I prefer to move the left hand to the left 50% and the right hand to the right 50%. A suggestion I learned from Paul Cummins' Side Steal DVD.

This will get the palmed card clear of the deck, still clipped between the right pinky and thumb as in Vernon's technique--but not buckled. Hovering over the deck a tad and dropping the palmed card with a slight left and right wave of the hand over the face of the deck is a John Carney suggestion from Book of Secrets.

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Re: Pick off Pip (Dai Vernon’s Version)

Postby Denis Behr » March 19th, 2018, 3:13 am

I believe you can see Vernon execute this unusual steal on the Revelations video tapes. (Vernon offers a different, also unusual steal in Inner Secrets of Card Magic.)

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Re: Pick off Pip (Dai Vernon’s Version)

Postby Q. Kumber » March 19th, 2018, 4:33 am

Ganson mentions that having removed the pip, Vernon made a throwing motion as though throwing the pip away. What he didn't mention was that Vernon's eyes followed the 'pip' as it disappeared into nothingness, thus extending the magical moment.

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Re: Pick off Pip (Dai Vernon’s Version)

Postby Kent Blackmore » March 19th, 2018, 7:25 am

I've put up a short clip of the trick performed by the Professor, from a non-commercial video.
https://youtu.be/19D4Np3Cn4k

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Re: Pick off Pip (Dai Vernon’s Version)

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 19th, 2018, 10:47 am

That's great, thanks!
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Re: Pick off Pip (Dai Vernon’s Version)

Postby Bill Mullins » March 19th, 2018, 2:23 pm

Kent Blackmore wrote:I've put up a short clip of the trick performed by the Professor, from a non-commercial video.
https://youtu.be/19D4Np3Cn4k



What is the source of that video? And does it contain him demonstrating/teaching the Berg Knot?

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Re: Pick off Pip (Dai Vernon’s Version)

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 19th, 2018, 2:34 pm

It's a video shot a lecture. He probably did The Berg Knot at the lecture, because he was doing it in that series of lectures.
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Re: Pick off Pip (Dai Vernon’s Version)

Postby Q. Kumber » March 19th, 2018, 2:39 pm

Bill Mullins wrote:
Kent Blackmore wrote:I've put up a short clip of the trick performed by the Professor, from a non-commercial video.
https://youtu.be/19D4Np3Cn4k



What is the source of that video? And does it contain him demonstrating/teaching the Berg Knot?


I learnt the Berg Knot from the Vernon description in Pallbearer's. However I didn't like having to drape the silk over my arm, as that did not fit in with the routine I had in mind. After much experimenting I worked out a way where you apparently are holding only the diagonal ends the whole time. It's quite possible what I worked out may have been what Martin Gardner tried to describe.

Incidentally, I don't see any point in doing any kind of fake knot on its own - that's just a puzzle.

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Re: Pick off Pip (Dai Vernon’s Version)

Postby Pete McCabe » March 19th, 2018, 2:40 pm

It's a bit hard to see, but here Vernon doesn't use the throwing motion. Instead he puts the removed pip on the table and flicks it away with his middle finger.

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Pick off Pip (Dai Vernon’s Version)

Postby groovemaster » March 19th, 2018, 3:27 pm

Thank you all for your excellent advices!
It helped a lot, especially Leonard’s detail here:
Leonard Hevia wrote:At this point, although Ganson does not imply it, the right hand should relax a bit to decrease the bend in the buckle since it is no longer required and complete the color change.


Also Kent’s Link is very helpful. Exactly what I was looking for.
Now I‘m at the right track I think.
Again thank you all gentlemen! Appreciate it.
Cheers


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Re: Pick off Pip (Dai Vernon’s Version)

Postby groovemaster » March 19th, 2018, 3:29 pm

Denis Behr wrote:I believe you can see Vernon execute this unusual steal on the Revelations video tapes. (Vernon offers a different, also unusual steal in Inner Secrets of Card Magic.)

Denis, sounds to me like very interesting stuff. Can you help me with a hint where to get those (living very near Munich)?


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Re: Pick off Pip (Dai Vernon’s Version)

Postby erdnasephile » March 19th, 2018, 3:40 pm

Groovemaster:

If you go to llepub.com, you can search for the Dai Vernon Revelations instant downloads. Once you browse through the volumes of this set to find what you want (each volume listing has a table of contents), you can get an instant download of the video you want.

Good luck!

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Re: Pick off Pip (Dai Vernon’s Version)

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 19th, 2018, 4:29 pm

Vernon taught me The Berg Knot. It was confusing and counter-intuitive to learn, but I did it. However through lack of practice I lost it. I have not found any instructions that adequately describe what he taught me.
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Re: Pick off Pip (Dai Vernon’s Version)

Postby Pete McCabe » March 19th, 2018, 6:04 pm

I learned the Berg knot from the description in Encyclopedia of Impromptu Magic. It was not difficult to learn. You might want to try there.

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Re: Pick off Pip (Dai Vernon’s Version)

Postby Steve Bryant » March 19th, 2018, 7:52 pm

The bit with flicking the pip is described in detail in Michael Perovich's The Vernon Companion.

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Re: Pick off Pip (Dai Vernon’s Version)

Postby Q. Kumber » March 19th, 2018, 8:11 pm

Steve Bryant wrote:The bit with flicking the pip is described in detail in Michael Perovich's The Vernon Companion.


Thank you Steve. I'd forgotten where I read it.

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Re: Pick off Pip (Dai Vernon’s Version)

Postby performer » March 19th, 2018, 8:24 pm

Maybe it was an age thing but I don't think Vernon did the move very smoothly in that video. But in any event you don't have to use the method he published anyway. You can do all sorts of colour changes and pull the pip off. And more angle proof too. Come to think of it virtually any colour change you can use that idea. In fact I think Leipzig himself pulled the pip off from the five of spades making it the four of spades. And he used his own colour change which oddly enough looks a bit like the change in the video.

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Re: Pick off Pip (Dai Vernon’s Version)

Postby Kent Blackmore » March 20th, 2018, 2:29 am

The video was a lecture, I don't think I have the right to reproduce the whole thing though this little clip is fine. The Berg Knot wasn't taught here. Vernon was performing in the morning - not his preferred time!

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Re: RE: Re: Pick off Pip (Dai Vernon’s Version)

Postby groovemaster » March 20th, 2018, 3:32 am

erdnasephile wrote:Groovemaster:

If you go to llepub.com,...
... you can get an instant download of the video you want.
Good luck!


Excellent! Thank you!

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Re: Pick off Pip (Dai Vernon’s Version)

Postby MagicbyAlfred » March 20th, 2018, 5:46 am

performer wrote:Maybe it was an age thing but I don't think Vernon did the move very smoothly in that video. But in any event you don't have to use the method he published anyway. You can do all sorts of colour changes and pull the pip off. And more angle proof too. Come to think of it virtually any colour change you can use that idea. In fact I think Leipzig himself pulled the pip off from the five of spades making it the four of spades. And he used his own colour change which oddly enough looks a bit like the change in the video.


To my eye, at least in that video, there is a discernible "move" that diminishes, or even eliminates, the illusion. It's like there are two clearly visible and distinct actions with his right hand, instead of one smooth, natural, flowing action of picking off the pip. First, with no motivation for it, his right hand taps the deck with his fingers extending straight outward, with the hand becoming momentarily flat as a pancake. This telegraphs the depositing of a card onto the deck. This is then followed by a second and separate action, i.e. the simulated picking-off of the pip.

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Re: Pick off Pip (Dai Vernon’s Version)

Postby El Mystico » March 20th, 2018, 6:25 am

I think the handling in More Inner Secrets is cleaner.

On the Berg Knot: there are two handlings I use. The one in Pallbearers and the one in Gardner’s Encyclopedia. I find them both practical.

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Re: Pick off Pip (Dai Vernon’s Version)

Postby Leonard Hevia » March 20th, 2018, 11:00 pm

Kent Blackmore wrote:Vernon was performing in the morning - not his preferred time!


Eugene Burger used to remark that magic should be performed after sunset. I like that.


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