Sword Card origins?

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Paco Nagata
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Sword Card origins?

Postby Paco Nagata » February 9th, 2022, 9:35 am

My friend Maigret asked that question in "The Magician's Forum." He got different opinions. So, I thought about asking the same question here in Genii Forum, with the hope of getting more information about it.

Genii MagicPedia says that the Card Stabbing effect was first explained in Testament de Jérome Sharp, page 172 by Henri Decremps (1785).
http://www.geniimagazine.com/wiki/index ... d_Stabbing
However, I think that Maigret wanted to know the origin of the Sword Card more specifically; cards stubbed by a sword.

Does anyone know where a card stabbed by a sword appeared for the first time in print? Creators?
Thanks in advance!
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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Sword Card origins?

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 9th, 2022, 11:10 am

"The Card Sword was performed as early as 1842 by Viennese magician Ludwig Döbler in London and c. 1853 by Robert-Houdin."
Was surprised to find that they are now being made of plastic by Chinese companies.
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Paco Nagata
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Re: Sword Card origins?

Postby Paco Nagata » February 9th, 2022, 12:07 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:"The Card Sword was performed as early as 1842 by Viennese magician Ludwig Döbler in London and c. 1853 by Robert-Houdin."

Great!
Thank you so much for this golden piece of information, Mr. Kaufman.
I'll transmit it (from you) to Maigret.
He will love to know that!
Richard Kaufman wrote:Was surprised to find that they are now being made of plastic by Chinese companies.

Ha, ha! Funny observation!
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Re: Sword Card origins?

Postby Jon Pendragon » February 11th, 2022, 12:42 am

There is also some evidence that it was created to accompany the Tossed Out Deck.

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Re: Sword Card origins?

Postby Philippe Billot » February 11th, 2022, 6:44 am

I think that "Card on Ceiling" (1654) predates for the Tossed Out Deck

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Re: Sword Card origins?

Postby Philippe Billot » February 11th, 2022, 7:03 am

Richard Kaufman wrote:"The Card Sword was performed as early as 1842 by Viennese magician Ludwig Döbler in London and c. 1853 by Robert-Houdin."
Was surprised to find that they are now being made of plastic by Chinese companies.


Have you a reference for Ludwig Döbler, please ?

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Re: Sword Card origins?

Postby Joe Lyons » February 11th, 2022, 8:07 am

According to this site it was described by Guyot in 1740 in Nouvelle Récréations Physiques et Mathématiques.

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Re: Sword Card origins?

Postby Philippe Billot » February 11th, 2022, 8:31 am

ATTENTION! There is a big mistake. Guyot's books begins in 1769. I don't remember who began to say or write 1740 but it's wrong.

If it's in MagicPedia you read this, I urgently need to fix.

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Re: Sword Card origins?

Postby Philippe Billot » February 11th, 2022, 8:32 am

No, it's correct in MagicPedia

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Re: Sword Card origins?

Postby Joe Lyons » February 11th, 2022, 8:43 am

Philippe Billot wrote:ATTENTION! There is a big mistake. Guyot's books begins in 1769. I don't remember who began to say or write 1740 but it's wrong.


1769 is the earliest edition I could find as well.

If it's in MagicPedia you read this, I urgently need to fix.


No, just on the site I linked to. Even if the date is incorrect, there is some information on the Sword Card you may find helpdul.

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Re: Sword Card origins?

Postby Paco Nagata » February 11th, 2022, 9:09 am

Joe Lyons wrote:According to this site it was described by Guyot in 1740 in Nouvelle Récréations Physiques et Mathématiques.

This piece of information is a gem!
Thank you so much, Joe!
I couldn't imagine how old are some (card) magic effects!
So then, as Philippe pointed out, 1769 may be the earliest reference in print, at the moment...
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Re: Sword Card origins?

Postby Joe Lyons » February 11th, 2022, 9:30 am

I Ghiochi Numerici by Antonio Alberti 1747 , mentioned in Magic Christian's Non Plus Ultra Vol. II, is the earliest book mentioned with a card sword reference. My archaic Italian is a little rusty but I did find the word spada (sword) in an online copy of the text.

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Re: Sword Card origins?

Postby Philippe Billot » February 11th, 2022, 12:46 pm

Joe, is it possible to have the number page where the trick is described ?

Thank in advance.

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Re: Sword Card origins?

Postby Joe Lyons » February 11th, 2022, 1:39 pm

I found the reference to I Ghiochi Numerici in Non Plus Ultra Vol. II, page 312.

The word spada I saw in I Ghiochi Numerici, pages 292 and 296 - perhaps that's what Magic Christian is referring to.

Hope that helps, Philippe.

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Re: Sword Card origins?

Postby Philippe Billot » February 11th, 2022, 1:58 pm

Yes, this help me, Joe and I thank you very much.

There is the word "spada" page 292 and 296 in I Ghiochi Numerici but it has nothing to do with card sword. (It's about the plague!)

I was a little surprised because this book is the translation of Récréations mathématiques et physiques de Ozanam, edition 1723 in which Grandin added Tours de Gibecière and there is no card sword in it. Only Card in the egg.

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Re: Sword Card origins?

Postby Joe Lyons » February 11th, 2022, 2:14 pm

Philippe Billot wrote: (It's about the plague!)


Nice.

Now I'm curious as to what Magic Christian meant. From Non Plus Ultra Vol. II: "The feat of stabbing one or several selected cards from a deck was described in early magic books." (He references I Ghiochi Numerici with a footnote). He goes on to describe how the cards are spread face down on the floor and stabbed with a sword.

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Re: Sword Card origins?

Postby Philippe Billot » February 11th, 2022, 4:59 pm

Perhaps, he quotes the wrong book? Because it's possible that an italian book described a card sword in the middle of the XVIIe century

BUT, page 292, we have :
Questa polvere non si mette già sopra la piaga ma sopra un panno lino, o sopra una spada , in cui sieno gocciole di sangue o altra materia dessa piaga.

In english : This dust does not already get the plague but on a linen cloth, or on top a sword, in which there are drops of blood or other matter of the plague.

If I translate correctly... (with the help of G.....)

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Re: Sword Card origins?

Postby EdwinCorrie » February 12th, 2022, 8:10 pm

Guyot 1769: I read somewhere that the mistake about the date for Guyot comes from "Magic without Apparatus", the English translation of Gaultier's "La prestidigitation sans appareils". The English translation gives the date as 1740 - but Gaultier's original is actually wrong too because it gives 1749. In the online edition at BnF Gallica (page 12) the typeface makes the "9" look a lot like a "0", so it was probably miscopied for the translation. But even 1749 was the wrong date, so 1740 is doubly wrong!

I giochi numerici 1747 (the spelling seems to have changed between different editions): Alberti says in the introduction that he borrowed from various earlier sources, including Vol. 4 of Ozanam (1723), which makes up part 3 of "I giochi numerici". The references to swords are not in the Ozanam section, and Philippe is right that they are from a completely different context (about a magic powder).

Magic Christian's other reference to old books describing the card sword is Wiegleb's "Die natürliche Magie", which came after Guyot, so it looks like Guyot 1769 is the earliest reference.

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Re: Sword Card origins?

Postby Philippe Billot » February 13th, 2022, 3:11 am

Thanks Edwin.

You're right, it's Gaultier himself (or the printer?) who makes the mistake about the date.

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Re: Sword Card origins?

Postby Paco Nagata » February 14th, 2022, 3:25 am

Thank you very much, Edwin!
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Re: Sword Card origins?

Postby Tarotist » February 14th, 2022, 7:09 am

In all the decades I have been doing magic I have only seen one person perform the card sword. His name was Alfred Gabrial. He did it very well and I always thought it was a good trick. Very spectacular but I hate things going all over the floor since you have to pick them up again at some point. I bet that is the reason you don't see the trick very often.


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