Twisting the Aces

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.
Guest

Re: Twisting the Aces

Postby Guest » December 22nd, 2001, 6:34 am

Hi All.

I remember clearly the first time I saw the Asher twist performed. It was so magically, and I was so badly fooled (I love that). I saw it live, and not performed by Lee Asher, but a danish world class close-up magician, named Joachim Solberg (remember him, Lee?). Joachim learned the method from Lee himself, and does the effect perfect!.
Now for myself, I can't do the move well enough, so I don't use it, but for those you can, it looks so great.

Best,
Daniel

Guest

Re: Twisting the Aces

Postby Guest » December 22nd, 2001, 11:05 am

Can we clarify what is at debate here?

Is it which routine is better?

Or if Asher's effect is "card juggling"?

Or perhaps if the move from the Twist is impractical?

~Jason

steve
Posts: 46
Joined: April 13th, 2009, 9:38 am

Re: Twisting the Aces

Postby steve » December 22nd, 2001, 5:02 pm

Entering this conversation very late, but I saw Paul perform the Asher Twist in person at a lecture. Having limited knowledge of cards, I can say I sat with my jaw dropped open. A guy behind me was doing it during a break and I had no clue what was going on. It was very magical to me, perhaps because I don't know much about cards.

Nice work Paul.

User avatar
Brad Jeffers
Posts: 974
Joined: April 11th, 2008, 5:52 pm
Location: Savannah, GA

Re: Twisting the Aces

Postby Brad Jeffers » January 7th, 2002, 4:29 pm

I just finished reading through this entire thread ... WHEW! I'm exausted! I have but a couple of points to add. First, referring to the Asher twist as card juggling is really unfair (as for Lee's diving-board double ... now that's card juggling!). Mr. Ross states (after repeatedly useing the term), that he did not coin the term himself, but overheard other's using it, after one of Lee's lectures. Prehaps they were alluding to other aspests of Lee's work, which certainly do fall under the heading of juggling, namely the above mentioned diving-board double (especially the behind the back version!) The other thing that I wanted to mention was in reference to Mr. MCCabe's comment "In Vernon's handling you count the aces from hand to hand. This is completely unnatural ... The natural way is to spread the cards" It is quite natural to count the cards from hand to hand. In this way you actually add a little suspense to the thing, which adds to the overall entertainment value. I personally like both versions of this effect. But (in answer to the original post), my favorite twisting effect is Derek Dingle's "We'll Twist". The color change always gets a great response!

Guest

Re: Twisting the Aces

Postby Guest » January 9th, 2002, 2:14 am

I dont understand people being angry for telling their opinions openly.

I love Vernons Twisting the aces. I know Vernon endend doing the last Elmsley count in the process of placing the cards in the espectator hands, as an aftertough. Being the last turnover climax in the spectator hands (not possible with the Asher move).

But for me, and I love the asher move also (but for another uses, because I think is very, very good). But, when you do Twisting the aces people will think you skillfully turned over the aces one by one, and if you do Asher move will be right, (AND YOU CANNOT PROVE THE OPOSSITE). For that reason I think Version way of doing the trick is better suited, because the real method is more hidden and ingenious.
What people sees is: you show cards face down ( elmsley count) a snap, people sees you do nothing and the ace is face up. This is the way people has to remember the effect.


I know Vernon version was based upon a gaffed paket trick popular in his time. Anyboy knows which trick ? Thanks.

bagelsandlox
Posts: 78
Joined: March 31st, 2008, 11:25 am

Re: Twisting the Aces

Postby bagelsandlox » November 9th, 2011, 5:14 pm

Anyone that ever sat at Vernon's feet knows exactly what eh'd say about The Asher Twist.

"It's not magic. You're just showing how clever you are".

This is the type of magic he hated.

User avatar
Steve Bryant
Posts: 1884
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Ballantine
Location: Bloomington IN
Contact:

Re: Twisting the Aces

Postby Steve Bryant » November 9th, 2011, 5:21 pm

I have always thought that notion was [censored]. I think Vernon would have traveled across country to see the man who could do it.

User avatar
Dustin Stinett
Posts: 6887
Joined: July 22nd, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Sometimes
Location: Southern California
Contact:

Re: Twisting the Aces

Postby Dustin Stinett » November 9th, 2011, 5:38 pm

Im not sure that I agree 100-percent with your assessment of what the Professor would say about the Asher Twist, but thats not what has me replying to you: Im curious to know if you realize that you are responding in a thread that is nearly a decade old.

(Reply to Bagels, not Steve)

Pete McCabe
Posts: 2328
Joined: January 18th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Simi Valley, CA

Re: Twisting the Aces

Postby Pete McCabe » November 9th, 2011, 6:28 pm

Many magicians have combined Vernon's original with Asher's handling, usually by performing both tricks in that order: starting with the more subtle version, and finishing with the flashier.

R. Paul Wilson has written (somewhere) very convincingly that the reverse order is better: start with Asher, end with Vernon.

Another six or seven years we should be ready to put this thread to bed.

rkosby
Posts: 79
Joined: March 13th, 2008, 3:28 am
Location: MD

Re: Twisting the Aces

Postby rkosby » November 9th, 2011, 7:22 pm

My favorite twisting routine is Daryl's Twisted Aces Redivivus from Secrets of a Puerto Rican Gambler. I like the finale. It's impromptu and reasonably easy.

bagelsandlox
Posts: 78
Joined: March 31st, 2008, 11:25 am

Re: Twisting the Aces

Postby bagelsandlox » November 9th, 2011, 11:59 pm

@Dustin Stinnet: do the dates of these threads matter? If birthday wishes were being given and the person was long dead, I could see you raising the point.

Dustin, do you only perform new magic in fear someone may say "do you realize that trick is over 200 hundred years old?"

User avatar
Dustin Stinett
Posts: 6887
Joined: July 22nd, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Sometimes
Location: Southern California
Contact:

Re: Twisting the Aces

Postby Dustin Stinett » November 10th, 2011, 1:11 am

Not at all. It takes some major digging to find a ten-year-old thread to resurrect (with some participants that are long gone from this site). I asked a simple question out of real curiosity because, quite often, some folks do not notice the date. I meant no offense.

Pete McCabe
Posts: 2328
Joined: January 18th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Simi Valley, CA

Re: Twisting the Aces

Postby Pete McCabe » November 10th, 2011, 3:32 am

Ray Kosby only posts every ten years anyway, so he didn't even notice.

bagelsandlox
Posts: 78
Joined: March 31st, 2008, 11:25 am

Re: Twisting the Aces

Postby bagelsandlox » November 10th, 2011, 8:17 am

@Dustin Stinnet: It takes some major digging to find a ten-year-old thread to resurrect?

You 'assume' quiet a bit. First off, a google search brought this up. Do you know anything about search engine and Google?

Second, you assume the goal was to "resurrect"? You must spend your time on conspiracy theory sites. Try not to read too much into a simple post about a magic trick.

There's a new, best selling, book on the Killing of President Lincoln. I guess if you were running the publishing office you would have passed on the project because it's such an old subject.

No wonder this site has such little activity as It's such a turn off to try and have a conversation.

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 8156
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: Twisting the Aces

Postby Jonathan Townsend » November 10th, 2011, 8:34 am

Steve Bryant wrote:I have always thought that notion was [censored]. I think Vernon would have traveled across country to see the man who could do it.


Unlike a center deal that works in card games - a display of skill, even if "artistic" (read stylized and self evident) IMHO was not so appealing. Did he hang out with jugglers and tell stories about their feats?

User avatar
Dustin Stinett
Posts: 6887
Joined: July 22nd, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Sometimes
Location: Southern California
Contact:

Re: Twisting the Aces

Postby Dustin Stinett » November 10th, 2011, 8:42 am

Turn off? Who's insulting who here? Lighten up bagelswhoever you are. (And just what did you enter into Google to find this specific thread? Never mind; that's a rhetorical question. I am, of course, assuming that you know what that means.)

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 8156
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: Twisting the Aces

Postby Jonathan Townsend » November 10th, 2011, 8:48 am

Want of logos - FAIL at pathos.

Why the attempt to flail a non-horse?

Is Stephen King's latest, 11/23/63 on the best seller list yet? It's about the Kennedy event.

I'm still keeping a watch for an idea or theme that would take the trick into the "worth performing" and out of the "clever me" wastelands.

El Harvey Oswald
Posts: 314
Joined: June 21st, 2011, 11:37 pm

Re: Twisting the Aces

Postby El Harvey Oswald » November 10th, 2011, 2:51 pm

what is the incidence of lay people finding the reverse spread in Asher "unnatural"? tending to zero, i'd say.

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 8156
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: Twisting the Aces

Postby Jonathan Townsend » November 10th, 2011, 3:20 pm

El Harvey Oswald wrote:what is the incidence of lay people finding the reverse spread in Asher "unnatural"? tending to zero, i'd say.


Are you asking about the basic display spread?

rkosby
Posts: 79
Joined: March 13th, 2008, 3:28 am
Location: MD

Re: Twisting the Aces

Postby rkosby » November 11th, 2011, 8:55 pm

I didn't have that much trouble finding the thread. It showed up in my RSS.

See you in 10 years.

Edward Pungot
Posts: 521
Joined: May 18th, 2011, 1:55 am

Re: Twisting the Aces

Postby Edward Pungot » November 14th, 2011, 1:23 pm

WOW: It's Ray Kosby!

A1exM
Posts: 104
Joined: September 12th, 2008, 2:16 pm

Re: Twisting the Aces

Postby A1exM » November 14th, 2011, 6:01 pm

Who??

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 8156
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: Twisting the Aces

Postby Jonathan Townsend » November 14th, 2011, 6:03 pm

Let's see if Beetlejuice also has an RSS feed. :)

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 8156
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: Twisting the Aces

Postby Jonathan Townsend » November 14th, 2011, 6:11 pm

Anonymous wrote:Those who havent seen Lee do the twist or someone who has learned to do it right have no grounds to comment. Ive seen Lee do it hundreds of times and watched the spectators reaction they go crazy. They love it and ask to see it again and again. I belive the Professor whoul have too! it looks magical!


Right? Spelling? Some poser posting as Anonymous acting like a churl - I wish that were less common.

Since when has the reaction of a room full of semi-jaded magicians been an indicator of what a room full of attentive and skeptical layman would find both magical and impressive as opposed to stylized juggling? Since the handling is the method and it is also distinctive to that one item in performance it seems to me more of a good puzzle (how could one reverse a card that while handling the cards like that?) than a natural, motivated or character based consistent manner of handling the cards.

I too find the Asher Twist impressive - yet it does not "feel" like magic is happening. There is neither accounting for the magic nor a clear sense of "this could just as well happen while the cards are on the table" IMHO.

Ian Kendall
Posts: 2444
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Edinburgh
Contact:

Re: Twisting the Aces

Postby Ian Kendall » November 14th, 2011, 6:43 pm

Some poser posting as Anonymous acting like a churl


Jon - that post was from ten years ago, before the Forum upgrade that wiped the user database. Many old posts are listed as Anonymous, but had names at the time.

rkosby
Posts: 79
Joined: March 13th, 2008, 3:28 am
Location: MD

Re: Twisting the Aces

Postby rkosby » November 15th, 2011, 1:38 am

My how time flies.

Roy Walton's Impact from The Devils Playthings (reprinted in the Complete Walton Vol 1), could be used as a finale for Vernon's routine.

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 8156
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: Twisting the Aces

Postby Jonathan Townsend » November 15th, 2011, 10:06 am

Four envelopes added to the cards that came from a pack? That seems the same kind of thinking as doing a dove production at the end of the Asher Twist done at chest level; extra props -> extra effect + impact.

Pete McCabe
Posts: 2328
Joined: January 18th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Simi Valley, CA

Re: Twisting the Aces

Postby Pete McCabe » November 15th, 2011, 11:19 am

The best finale for Twisting the Aces is to have the last card turn over while the four aces are in the cardcase being held by the spectator. I know Darwin Ortiz wrote about this, although I don't recall if it was his idea originally.

Magician's ignore this idea, because it uses the same method as the original. But just give it a try sometime.

Doc Dixon
Posts: 216
Joined: April 16th, 2008, 1:45 pm

Re: Twisting the Aces

Postby Doc Dixon » November 15th, 2011, 11:48 am

Re: a finale, there's a routine where a selected card is added into the routine. The ace of spades (the last ace) turns out to be the selection and the ace of spades is reversed in the deck. Can't remember where I read it (though I've performed it for years) but it's either Lorayne's or Aronson's.

DD

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 8156
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: Twisting the Aces

Postby Jonathan Townsend » November 15th, 2011, 12:16 pm

DD, I've seen that in conjunction with the "Hofzinser Problem". IMHO it clutters a fine trick with a selection and a "clever" revelation after a puzzling moment where the selection (you have all the spades in a block so they take one at the start, right?) is found among the "indicator cards". Again IMHO. Once you get folks engaged in the indicator cards flipping over you probably get them with the surprise of the card among the aces. Still seems a forced combination of the Biddle trick.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

Doc Dixon
Posts: 216
Joined: April 16th, 2008, 1:45 pm

Re: Twisting the Aces

Postby Doc Dixon » November 15th, 2011, 12:29 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:DD, I've seen that in conjunction with the "Hofzinser Problem". IMHO it clutters a fine trick with a selection and a "clever" revelation after a puzzling moment where the selection (you have all the spades in a block so they take one at the start, right?) is found among the "indicator cards". Again IMHO. Once you get folks engaged in the indicator cards flipping over you probably get them with the surprise of the card among the aces. Still seems a forced combination of the Biddle trick.


I can only tell you that hasn't been my experience in performance. Basically a card is selected and lost in the deck with a "we'll get to that later" conspiratorial wink. (If you don't have one of these they can be bought online.)

Then the aces are introduced and the twisting the aces begins. The fourth ace doesn't turn over after two attempts. The deck is spread and the fourth ace is face up there. Then the aces are spread to show a face down card and it's the selection. I've never had any indication from laymen that it was cluttered, confusing or anything like that.

It's similar in feeling to Andrew Wimhurst's ending for Open Travelers. (Sorry, but I can't remember which of his books that is in.)

Best,

DD

Jonathan Townsend
Posts: 8156
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: Westchester, NY
Contact:

Re: Twisting the Aces

Postby Jonathan Townsend » November 15th, 2011, 8:37 pm

@DD - Agreed that from a comic perspective it's a callback and can do well to keep an act moving. May as well have a dozen cards selected, signed and reveal them in places that way through an act. Similarly for the Hitchcock Aces, Cards Up Sleeve, Open Travelers, The Visitor...

IMHO there's something "cool" about getting an audience to deal with a routine on its own terms - in the Twisting routine you have cards turning over once, then after a display the next one, and after a count (this is where you can table or put the cards on a volunteer's hand) that one turns into the third one - and for a finale the magic happens while they hold the cards inside the case.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

bagelsandlox
Posts: 78
Joined: March 31st, 2008, 11:25 am

Re: Twisting the Aces

Postby bagelsandlox » February 15th, 2012, 9:42 am

Time to bring this thread back to life so that young Dustin Stinett has something to chat about.

stanh
Posts: 3
Joined: November 5th, 2012, 10:46 am

Re: Twisting the Aces

Postby stanh » December 12th, 2012, 3:57 am

Check out shin lim's routine I perform it all the time it's knacky but worth the practise watch it here skip to 29:16 http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri= ... qRATeMXTuA it's so visual and gets amazing reactions

Stan

stanh
Posts: 3
Joined: November 5th, 2012, 10:46 am

Re: Twisting the Aces

Postby stanh » December 12th, 2012, 4:09 am

It depends on you and your style pick whichever routine you want to perform and like most I like Shin's but that's just me. I can see many of you perform the classic vernon and that's fine because it suits you.


Return to “Close-Up Magic”