A Diabolical Apparatus, But No Good Routine in 50 Years

[Guest]

As to what kind of chop cup. I prefer the Don Allen chop cup as made origanaly by Rings N' Things. But then again I would be because I make them.
In all honestly though I do prefer the shape and size of that one and the weight. Of the copper, brass or alum. I very much like the look of the brass. If working behind a bar I then use the alum. one because it matches the bar shakers.

[Richard Kaufman]

You guys are fixated on what kind of cup to use and are missing the point entirely.
The BEST routine with a Chop Cup is by Bill Zavis and appears in his book "Divers Deceits" published by Goodlife. It uses a paper coffee cup that is UNGIMMICKED. The magnet is inside the tip of his wand, which he handles casually throughout the routine. It's a killer. Along the same lines is someone else's version where the magnet is hidden in a finger ring.
IT'S NOT ABOUT THE CUP!

[El Mystico]

Having started the 'which cup' question I entirely agree with Richard, that the routine - and what you put into it - is paramount. but on the other hand, if Richard had seen the nasty chop cup I had originally, he'd understand why I'm keen to avoid the same mistake!

[Earle Oakes]

The Mikame Cylinders are a wonderful set of chop cups.
A small cylinder that nests within a larger one allows for many variations of the chop
principle that are unique to
this handsome set of wooden
cups.

[Guest]

Richard you are right about the cup. The Sam Berland routien used a glass and paper shell and no magnet, it was as strong as any magnet routien.

That being said I personaly feel if you are going to use a gaffed cup then it should do one of two things look profesional, ie. clean polished the balls not dirty( toss them in the washing machine once in a while)and / or natural to the surroundings. When I work behind a bar I use the don allen alum cup, when working an asian resturant or when I was in China I used the Norm Nielson bowl. When working table to table I will use the brass Don allen or the Sam berland routien with a water glass that has been on the table.

Speaking of bowls Larry Flint did a wonderful chop bowl routien that he had in his lecture notes back in the 80's, that never used a gaff.

Reesman

[Randy DiMarco]

There is also a version by Rink that uses a paper cup and the magnet in the wand that I think was published in one of the Art of Close Up books

[El Mystico]

Interesting - i see parallel between this and the 'flourish or not flourish' thread. Of course, a real magician would not flourish, or use a 'prop' like an aluminium cup. He probably wouldn't use cards either. But then, look at the most famous magicians of the century. Take Houdini. Does anyone think he was a 'real' magician? (Apart from Conan Doyle). Take the closest we have to a real magician - Geller. He doesn't use props. To me this suddenly begins to suggest that actually I'm not sure I do want to be seen as a 'real' magician. But then, I don't do flourishes. I'm getting a bit confused...

[Jeff Haas]

Geller is considered a psychic, not a magician. People consider what he does as either real or fradulent...but they don't think of him as an entertainer.

Magicians, by definition, are entertainers. The only kind of stuff you can do that will really make people think you have supernatural powers is mentalism, because it's plausible. Everything else we do is "some kind of trick" even if it's done by Ricky Jay.

I think attempting to convince people you've got supernatural powers with anything other than mentalism is perceived by your audience as ridiculous.

[John Pezzullo]

From a previous posting:

Speaking of bowls Larry Flint did a wonderful chop bowl routien that he had in his lecture notes back in the 80's, that never used a gaff.

I think it should read 'Howard Flint'.

[Guest]

John
You are correct. sorry and thanks for the clarification. Memory going.

[Guest]

Having used the Mini-chop cup in walkaround for years, I have this to say about the "logic" of the cup. In some routines in magic, I agree that the "illogicalness" (sorry Jon) of the prop tends to detract from the routine.
In the chop cup, however, it's what you do with it, I think, that matters most. If the routine is entertaining, I don't think the audience will care on bit if you are using a metal cup or a plastic cup. If you have an entertaining presentation, that is what they'll remember...it isn't about the cup, it's about "me", the performer.
I had been using that same Don Alan idea for years until seeing Martin Lewis do his "Cheap Cup", and then changed mine to include Martin's idea of showing them how con men cheat rather than "snagging" the customer themselves. I've obviously added my own silly little bits of business over time, like using eyeballs for final loads.
Just my opinion.
Rick

[Guest]

After posting this, I just remembered something. I just bought a copy of Ron Wilson's book (great book, Richard..one of my new favorites) and the more I think about it, the more I feel I'll probably use his idea of gimmicking a small paper cup. I think that would remove the possible suspicion of the audience allowing me more room to entertain them without them concentrating on whether there's "something about that cup".
Rick

[Steve Bryant]

Ron used to do it with a paper cup from Coffee Dan's, an LA establishment. Introducing the cup got a big laugh AND convinced the audience it was innocent.

[Guest]

I dislike strange props like cups and balls, but Ive tried miniature chop cup, ( Ganson routine from " The Ganson book") calling it a giant thimble for showing gamblers pea and cup cheating, people accepts it. But for Hoping table is too much cumbersome for me.
But I think the best chop cup version for close up is Ron Wilson from his book.(RonWilson , the uncanny scot" one of the best investments for a working pro. The final load of full glass is very, very well tougth, and the rotine has variety of effects, the problem its not tougth for table hoping performing conditions).

I think Don allan routine its too simplistic in method, its easy for a layman to fathom a solution very near to the real one.

But for stage I prefer Paul Daniels version, because its more related to cup and balls routine in concept & visuality.

Nowadays I reverted to not performing cups & balls like effects, but maybe I change opinion, because Hofzinser routine with two cups its too good for not using it in drawing room environment.

[Guest]

I believe the chop cup can be brilliantly used the combo cups and balls. The gimmick is further hidden amongst the two standard cups and, when put into a slick routine allows for many more effects that cups and balls and chop cup allow.

However, I have seen some pretty good single chop cup ball routines. I like to use two hacky sacks as the final load. They look like big versions of the two small knitted balls.

[Guest]

Mike Ammar did a can of beans Chop routine on one of the Vernon tapes where his final load was the fact that when the spectator lifted the cup to see if the ball came back to the can, they find an unopened can of beans!

I'm not sure if Mr. Ammar came up with that routine but that is innovation!

Has anyone seen the new Pringles can chop set?

[Matthew Field]

The can of beans routine Ammar did is Paul Harris's "Beanie Weenie." It is not a chop cup routine, but does have a sponge ball repeatedly making its appearance under the can which is then shown to be unopened.

Matt Field

[Bill Duncan]

I'd recommend againstusing sponge balls for the solid cone/sealed can cup and ball effect. If the ball can be compressed flat it sort of kills the mystery of how it could have been under a solid can.

I seem to recall that when Ammar taught his version (the Encore III lecture tour) he said that Harris said that the Beenie Weenie thing started as a way to do Shigeo Takagi's (solid) cone and ball routine with a common object.

Can anyone confirm that? I can't find a print reference.

[Earle Oakes]

Bill Duncan,
Shigeo Takagi's routine used a solid wooden cup(very much like a Mikame cup) and it did predate Paul Harris' Beenie Weenie. He later had a later model that was a solid cup
that broke apart and a final load of a large ball was produced from inside the cup.
I have both cups and used to do the routine many years ago.
The routine is in Richard's book on Mr. Tagagi's Magic[email]null[/email]

[Suresh]

In December 2001, Charlie Chang wrote:

I will also feature two effects in a forthcoming book that use the chop cup in a very different manner (no balls or final loads).

Have these effects been published, and if so, where?

Thanks,

[Jonathan Townsend]

Do we have any background for Charlie?

Agreed that the prop is more versitile than just the standard cup and ball routine. Two obvious uses are as billet switch and for a variant of Jay Sankey's Paperclipped. Both use a paperclip. ;)

Also looking forward to Charlie's thoughts on the props usage.

Jon

[George Olson]

Well, Pete, don't be modest! Your cocktail shaker routine with the Joe Porper "Cup" is outstanding. The ending takes
the concept to a new level. When you did it on our dining room table it was just wonderful.

Thanks

GO

...now if I could just afford one....

[Mark Collier]

I got the impression that Charlie Chang is R. Paul Wilson.