Card to wherever - the time in between

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.
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Card to wherever - the time in between

Postby Guest » September 6th, 2004, 3:32 am

Hi folks,

I've recently been playing around with a few variations of the card to wherever - card to wallet, card to mouth, card to pocket and so on - but I find my first inclination is always to build it up by having the spectator choose a number from 1 ~52, cut or shuffle the deck and then count down that number, revealing their card (oops, not your card? etc.).

While that alone is fine, I'd be interested to hear (or find references to) what others among you do to bridge the gap between the control/removal of the card and the revelation. Any thoughts?

Malcolm

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Re: Card to wherever - the time in between

Postby Pepka » September 6th, 2004, 5:03 am

A great bit for Card to wallet is having a reason to pull out your wallet other than revealing the card. For example, during amtitious card routine, use a move that leads the audience to believe that the audience is finished. Possibly the pop-up card, or card to pocket. Offer to do one more trick using a bill or business card from your wallet. Load as you remove the wallet and let it sit on the table. Then reveal the card. Many times, spectators will remember you wallet being on the talbe the whole time.
Pepka

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Re: Card to wherever - the time in between

Postby Frank Starsinic » September 8th, 2004, 11:42 am

One of the best card-to-whatever's I've seen was Michael Ammar's at his lecture.

It was Card-to-Fly. As in his zipper.

The time between the selection and the revelation was fantastic. Funny and entertaining.

Guest

Re: Card to wherever - the time in between

Postby Guest » September 8th, 2004, 1:15 pm

It may be a very funny trick but I am afraid it reflects the present trend towards crudity. Magic is supposed to be an art form and this type of thing degrades and harms the art of conjuring far more than any silly TV exposure show that people forget a week after it is aired.

I would never book any performer who presents this disgusting card revelation no matter how entertaining he was. Neither would I ever book any performer that I considered insulting and aggressive. Or who makes the SLIGHTEST suggestive remark. Or who uses even the slightest cuss word on stage. Or who blasphemes or uses racist remarks.

Just as well I am not in charge of booking acts for magic conventions. Nobody would ever get booked.

Guest

Re: Card to wherever - the time in between

Postby Guest » September 8th, 2004, 1:18 pm

After reviewing what I have said above I have just realised that I would make a wonderful moderator for the magic cafe. I wonder if they will be rushing to make a path to my door.

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Re: Card to wherever - the time in between

Postby Jonathan Townsend » September 8th, 2004, 3:02 pm

Originally posted by Malcolm Russell:
...do to bridge the gap between the control/removal of the card and the revelation...
From the audience perspective, that would be the routine.

Why did you have a card selected?
Why did you replace and lose the card?
Why did you try to find the card?
What does this mean to the volunteer who chose the card?
What does this mean to the audience?
What strategy does the performer use to find the card?
Why is the card elsewhere later?

A trick without a presentation sounds about as silly as those old I Love Lucy show situations. Remember where they led?

Lucy? You got some splaining to do. ;)
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: Card to wherever - the time in between

Postby Frank Starsinic » September 8th, 2004, 3:16 pm

Sammy,

It was no big thing, really!

I don't know what you're picturing but from my perspective, as performed, it was neither disgusting nor crude.

I'm sure Mr. Ammar has the sense not to do the same thing at a little girl's birthday party or at the Ladies' Church Club Social.

In a similar way, just because a movie is rated "PG" or "R" doesn't mean it is crude and disgusting and no longer worthy of being considered art. It's just out of place in a 3rd grade classroom.

We probably agree on this issue more than we do not considering I don't let my kids watch TV because 99% of it is far more disgusting and crude than Mr. Ammar's trick.

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Re: Card to wherever - the time in between

Postby Jonathan Townsend » September 8th, 2004, 3:21 pm

Originally posted by frank starsinic:
...is far more disgusting and crude than Mr. Ammar's trick.
Hey, some of us were thinking of having a card appear in something a female volunteer is likely to be carrying in her purse.

You can go 'there' if you want... I was thinking of a compact, or a lipstick thingie... but that other option really ranks up there as risqu.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: Card to wherever - the time in between

Postby Pepka » September 8th, 2004, 7:48 pm

I disagree with Sammy 100%. It is a card trick. Not someone exposing himself. I think of all the marvelous performers who fall into Sammy's category of doing this "disgusting" type of material. Mac King, Tom Mullica, Mike Ammar, Doc Eason, Bob Sheets, David Copperfield; the list goes on and on. These are some of the finest performers in the world. And I for one would be thrilled to be listed in that group; even if it is because I tell dirty jokes and pull a card from my zipper.
Pepka

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Re: Card to wherever - the time in between

Postby Glenn Farrington » September 9th, 2004, 1:12 am

Now you've gone and done it Pepka. Sammy's not ever going to hire you for anything!
Comedy's Easy...Dying Sucks.

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Re: Card to wherever - the time in between

Postby Guest » September 9th, 2004, 2:17 am

I most certainly would not. Mind you nobody ever hires me to appear at conventions either. I don't think they would dare.

There is no excuse for this disgraceful kind of "magic" It cheapens the art and should never ever be contemplated. Magic has always been a wholesome entertainment suitable for the entire family and this type of thing is utterly degrading and disgusting. Any performer that indulges in it should be ashamed of themselves.

John Calvert once wrote a letter to a magic magazine (was it Genii or Magic) that young magicians often get their start in churches and they should remember this as they progress. Good taste and decorum should always be present in any performance.

As Victor Farelli once stated "Anyone can raise a vulgar laugh"

If the performers you mention are really some of "the best in the world" all I can say is that the world is in a sorry state.

I have seen 5 of them perform and apart from Mac King and David Copperfield I consider them all to be quite dreadful. I will not name the person I have not seen since I am known for my tact and diplomacy. On the principle that a firing squad has someone in it with a blank bullet I will let the other performers feel that they might be the one who is still an innocent party.

I wasn't aware that Copperfield panders to the lower classes on occasion. If this is truly the case I must say that he has gone down in my estimation and I suggest that he takes up knitting. I never did like his false smile anyway.
A British lady friend of mine said he was "all teeth and moody" Moody is a slang expression for false.

I have seen the Mac King show and I think it is quite excellent if you like that type of thing. It is probably the best value in Vegas shows and is very slick indeed.
He does that awful fly thing and I do not approve.
Still he is presenting himself as a comedian rather than a magician so I can just about bear it.
He is a superb performer but I wouldn't book him for a convention either.

Magic has quite gone down the drain in recent years. Someone should flush it down the toilet that it already seems to be in.

I am leaving this den of vulgarity now to visit a much more high class forum named alt.magic.

Good day.

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Re: Card to wherever - the time in between

Postby mrgoat » September 9th, 2004, 5:57 am

You are Mark Lewis and I hereby claim my five pounds.

Give Ray my love over in alt.magic, bless him.

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Re: Card to wherever - the time in between

Postby Jonathan Townsend » September 9th, 2004, 6:28 am

Originally posted by Sammy Haydn:
...As Victor Farelli once stated "Anyone can raise a vulgar laugh"...
As of 1990, and the MTV cartoon Beavis and Butthead the standard for vulgar in our culture changed.

Our demographics for normal, approved, acceptable and appropriate have fragmented. We have male bashing on commercials, and cartoons depicting children being frank about uncomfortable issues, i.e. South Park.

We also have several children's shows depicting adventures of children who dress in uniforms or spandex costumes, join paramilitary organizations, and go out to have interactions with adults dressed in uniforms, spandex costumes or latex costumes. In these shows the children have no families. In these shows the notions of right and wrong are as specious as the dialog. Power rangers or kiddie porn? Pokmon or child prostitution?

Let's use reality and entertainment as presented as our context instead of the supposed noble morality of a time before most of use were born. Not that the time of Victorian England was any better or worse than today mind you... it's just that we no longer suffer from the delusion that skin color differences imply species differences. Likewise the zeitgeists of manifest destiny and inevitable future are no longer our most galvanizing beliefs.

What then is vulgar? Perhaps we can take a step toward owning the messages we send by comparing our content against its cultural background. What specifically do we wish to convey as message and what do we choose as medium?

I propose that the performing venue and its attendant audience should be taken on its own terms. What works for a political fundraiser might not be effective for a rave. Lots more room for good decisions IMHO.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: Card to wherever - the time in between

Postby John LeBlanc » September 9th, 2004, 7:09 am

Originally posted by Jonathan Townsend:

What then is vulgar? Perhaps we can take a step toward owning the messages we send by comparing our content against its cultural background. What specifically do we wish to convey as message and what do we choose as medium?
If, by owning, you mean acknowledging, I'm squarely in your corner. Some of the funniest routines involve what you and I might call "speaking in quotes" which is specifically a mechanism by which we can say something and attribute it to someone else. (No election jokes, please.)

I've long said that kidshow magicians aren't competing with one another, they are competing with Dora the Explorer, Bob the Builder, and Blues Clues. This follows the point I think you were suggesting -- having some perspective that at least vaguely reflects contemporaneous culture.


Originally posted by Jonathan Townsend:
I propose that the performing venue and its attendant audience should be taken on its own terms. What works for a political fundraiser might not be effective for a rave. Lots more room for good decisions IMHO.
It's sort of baffling that statement needs to be made, but the fact is it does. I have seen several shows that could be dropped into nearly any venue without change and still play. But that surely is the exception these days. You'd think that concept would be obvious.

John LeBlanc

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Re: Card to wherever - the time in between

Postby Glenn Bishop » September 9th, 2004, 7:20 am

Originally posted by frank starsinic:
One of the best card-to-whatever's I've seen was Michael Ammar's at his lecture.

It was Card-to-Fly. As in his zipper.

The time between the selection and the revelation was fantastic. Funny and entertaining.
Card to fly - used to be done in the New York Lounge by Heba Haba Al and the other bar magicians. I think Frank Everheart used to also do it.

In these magic Bars no one under 21 used to get in. It is an adult effect for an adult audience. Most often a drinking crowd.

I don't think it is bad to do it for the right audience. It like - you should not do the needle trick in a kid show...

It comes down to choosing the right performance material for the right audience...

Guest

Re: Card to wherever - the time in between

Postby Guest » September 9th, 2004, 7:51 am

I am not impressed by the fact that low class performers working in low class venues to low class people indulge in this sort of low class "entertainment"

It is gutter entertainment and nobody doing it is worthy of being called an artist. It may be acceptable to certain types of people under the justification that you have to fit the act to the venue. However this is a very selfish point of view. It does the art of magic no service to be dragged into the gutter with filthy comedians, seamy striptease artists and other unworthy types of people.

We are the bearers of the standards of an honest and venerable art and we stand upon the shoulders of those who have gone before. It behooves us to reflect good taste and not pander to the vulgar instincts of vulgar people.

I am quite disappointed at Jonathon talking posh and intellectual to justify filth just because it is now socially acceptable to be filthy. I find Jonathon to be very intelligent and thoughtful even though half the time I do not understand what he is trying to say.

So far the only thing I have disagreed with Jonathon about is his approval of this awful Lewis personage that people keep referring to. No doubt a common svengali pitchman is the sort of person who advocates vulgarity the way everyone else does. Anyone who is moderator on a weed growing forum for buskers is no doubt just as vulgar a person as the other street beggars that occupy the place.

However on this matter I must say that I am surprised that Jonathon thinks that just because everyone else nowadays feels that vulgarity is acceptable then that makes it OK. I don't think Jonathon would go over well as a vulgar performer anyway. He talks too posh.

I think perhaps Victorian morality should be brought back and made compulsory. We would then be able to watch classy performances once again and bring the venerable art of magic back from the gutter that it is now in.

We have standards to bear. We should bear them instead of making them unbearable.

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Re: Card to wherever - the time in between

Postby Brian Morton » September 9th, 2004, 8:12 am

Sammy Haydn wrote:
Magic has always been a wholesome entertainment suitable for the entire family and this type of thing is utterly degrading and disgusting.
So, let me look back through the history books ... hm, there was Bosco, who used to fire a bird out of a blunderbuss and catch it on the point of a sword. That kinda blows the "always" out of the water.

Houdini used to strip naked before doing escapes. Not exactly "Victorian."

Like you mentioned, Mac King does Card from Fly. He does an afternoon "family" show in Vegas.

Boy, magic and it's history would be kind of dull without a little variety....

brian :cool:

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Re: Card to wherever - the time in between

Postby Jonathan Townsend » September 9th, 2004, 8:21 am

Originally posted by Sammy Haydn:
... I am quite disappointed at Jonathon talking posh and intellectual to justify filth just because it is now socially acceptable to be filthy...

I think perhaps Victorian morality should be brought back and made compulsory. We would then be able to watch classy performances once again and bring the venerable art of magic back from the gutter that it is now in.
I apologize for arguing in a way that appears to justify filth. Just because filth is pouring upon us does not mean we need to wallow in it or to offer such to others.

As to how we carry ourselves... such is indeed a challenge.

Of the Victorian era, there is much to learn. Here are a few links to pertinent pages:

http://www.erasofelegance.com/victorian.html

http://www.fashion-era.com/victorian_recreations.htm

Just so you know, I use 1899 era Veiled Victoria Half crowns and my favorite novels of a few years back were Gibson & Sterling's The Difference Engine and Moore's League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Of course you already know I cite Lewis Carol's Alice stories in my current project.

That noted, the questions of what to communicate and how to communicate and how we wish to be perceived by our audiences are open. In many cases a match/mismatch between content, context and character can serve the performer. I recommend making such choices both consciously and deliberately. A genteel performer both dressed and speaking posh at a low class venue might offer much amusement for the character being so far from its context. Likewise a performer who chooses to look and act gutter might have much leeway at a posh venue so long as the audience gets to see a sly wink of understanding, so they can enjoy the humor.

Perhaps if I could make a living at this sort of thing I could have a calling card "Philosopher of Conjuring" and then join what G. K. Chesterton dubbed the Club of Queer Trades, open only to those who invent their professions.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: Card to wherever - the time in between

Postby Gerald Deutsch » September 9th, 2004, 1:06 pm

Some years ago I was involved with an income tax audit for a client and I had a good working relationship with the Revenue Agent. There was one issue we disagreed on and so we broke to go to lunch.

Before he sat down, I dropped a card on his seat.

After a drink, I took out a deck of cards and forced the duplicate of the card he was sitting on and let him replace the card and shuffle the deck.

I told him I'm not very good at this stuff and asked him what was the value of his card. When he told me I removed all four of that value (putting his second from the bottom of the packet. I put the packet face up on top of the deck and showed him the four cards performing the Biddle move (bringing his card to the top of the deck) and then using the Elmsley count I counted the three cards as four and gave him the packet.

I asked him if I Could get his card to leave the packet and have him be sitting on it would he give in to me. He said "yes".

Case closed.

Guest

Re: Card to wherever - the time in between

Postby Guest » September 9th, 2004, 1:53 pm

Similar to Gerald's approach, I like working with a duplicate card. When going out to one of the Italian Restaurant's in NYC that serve huge platters family style, I'll flip a card under a plate as the waiter is putting it down. After folks have finished up eating, while plates are still on the table, I'll force a card and then palm it out. When it appears immediately aftwards under the large serving plate (complete with sauce stains), always gets a terrific response. As the set up is done 90 minutes prior to the trick, very difficult for them to backtrack to how I could have gotten the card there...

Guest

Re: Card to wherever - the time in between

Postby Guest » September 9th, 2004, 4:02 pm

Mac King does Card from Fly. I ahve never seen him do this but I have seen Mac do the Fig Newton from fly many times and it was always in good taste even though the location wasn't. Are we taking ourselves too seriously?

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Re: Card to wherever - the time in between

Postby Richard Kaufman » September 9th, 2004, 6:16 pm

Mac King's routine involves removing both a card and Fig Newton from his fly repeatedly--just saw him do it last weekend at TAOM in Houston.
I certainly wouldn't consider it "filth."
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Re: Card to wherever - the time in between

Postby Pepka » September 9th, 2004, 7:35 pm

I really don't think Mac bills himself as a comedian instead of a magician. A comedian stands there and tells jokes and maybe uses a few props to illustrate his point. Sammy, his show is billed as "The Mac King comedy magic show."

Guest

Re: Card to wherever - the time in between

Postby Guest » September 9th, 2004, 10:55 pm

The Card in Fly plot is the creation of Sid Fleischman, who invented it before WWII. (See The Charlatan's Handbook for details.)

The trick antedates the popularity of zippers, and originally required you to prep by covertly opening your fly-buttons in advance.

The audience for this trick was assumed to be all-male, whether in a bar, smoker, or magic shop.

As for the question about what to do between losing the card in the deck, and its reappearance, if it's Card on Forehead, I hand the deck out to be shuffled.

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Re: Card to wherever - the time in between

Postby Richard Kaufman » September 10th, 2004, 7:58 am

Sammy Hadyn was Mark Lewis (duh--it seems like I was the last person to figure that out), and he is GONE GONE GONE.
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Re: Card to wherever - the time in between

Postby Richard Hatch » September 10th, 2004, 8:26 am

Richard, according to your announcement yesterday, your post above should be immediately deleted!

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Re: Card to wherever - the time in between

Postby Jim Maloney_dup1 » September 10th, 2004, 9:43 am

Originally posted by Richard Hatch:
Richard, according to your announcement yesterday, your post above should be immediately deleted!
Heck, even the announcement should be deleted. I reported that post shortly after it was made. ;)

-Jim

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Re: Card to wherever - the time in between

Postby Glenn Bishop » September 10th, 2004, 11:41 am

Originally posted by Sammy Haydn:
I am not impressed by the fact that low class performers working in low class venues to low class people indulge in this sort of low class "entertainment"

It is gutter entertainment and nobody doing it is worthy of being called an artist. It may be acceptable to certain types of people under the justification that you have to fit the act to the venue. However this is a very selfish point of view. It does the art of magic no service to be dragged into the gutter with filthy comedians, seamy striptease artists and other unworthy types of people.
Well said... But magicians have been doing effects like this for a long time and the reason that they do it is because it makes money.

It makes money because there IS and audience for it and will pay money to see it.

The New York Lounge had bar magic and bar humor. No one under 21 was let in. One of the feature magicians ther was Heba Haba Al. One of the great bar magicians of his day.

Much of the material was sexy, blue, adult material. Not everyones cup of tea but it had an audience in Chicago and the New York Lounge was in business for years.

I do not sell to that market and that is not a market that I want to make my name in. But it is a market that magicians and other entertainers make money off of. And have been doing so for years.

I do not perform the card in the fly. But I have seen Heba Haba Al do it. And when he did it it was in a bar in front of a group of adults that were laughing and having a great time.

Nick the owner was having a good time to because his cash regester was ringing and selling drinks.

I most likely would not choose to do this effect but I enjoyed watching Heba do it... In front of the right audience.

Guest

Re: Card to wherever - the time in between

Postby Guest » September 13th, 2004, 8:26 am

And for my next trick I will ask a question about lawn furniture in order to generate a heated debate over Masonic imagery in equine statues 1540~1653.

Seriously, the above posts have been interesting and I think can be summarised as below:

1. by loading the card in the wallet at the supposed end of the trick, it can be reintroduced shortly afterwards. I like that, Pepka. It's got me thinking.

2. Pre-loading a card on a chair or under an un-reachable object (eg family platter) and forcing a dupe is another interesting option. Almost limitless potential.

3. The deck can be handed to the audience for shuffling, especially when doing card to forehead.

4. I had better not mention my canary-to-codpiece routine.

Any other suggestions for card-to-wallet? Others not involving dupes? Misdirection ideas? Approaches, methods, references, vague ideas, inspirations, any other thoughts?

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Re: Card to wherever - the time in between

Postby Glenn Bishop » September 15th, 2004, 7:31 pm

I remember years and years ago I wouked out a crd to wallet effect and was doing it for practice in my Fathers Magic shop. Most of the magicians I did it for liked it because it had several moves.

I showed it to Terry Vecky. At the time Terry was performing at the New York Lounge... He said it was had to many moves and I was over proving that four face down cards were on the table (the selections) so I could prove the point that the cards were put into the deck after the wallet was taken out and put on the table.

He said - Your working to hard - you can palm a card and put it on your forhead and not get caught - Just palm the cards and load them into the wallet.

So I took his advice that night when I went to work at Houdini's Pub... And the audience reaction was much better...


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