Mickey Silver's Coin Retention Vanish (Silver's Ultimate Vanish)

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.
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Re: Mickey Silver's Coin Retention Vanish (Silver's Ultimate Vanish)

Postby lsagmagic » February 20th, 2009, 1:10 pm

Mickey Silver is absolutely brilliant. If you don't know who he is, have never seen what he does with coins, Google his name and go to his website. There you will see a YouTube link. Take the time to see his routine. Absolutely amazing!
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Re: Mickey Silver's Coin Retention Vanish (Silver's Ultimate Vanish)

Postby Bill Wells » February 21st, 2009, 8:11 am

Mickey will be hanging out at the upcoming World Magic Seminar doing what Mickey does best ... coin magic anywhere and everywhere. He is a one man convention and completely open and accessable to anyone who speaks to him.
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Re: Mickey Silver's Coin Retention Vanish (Silver's Ultimate Vanish)

Postby retentionvision » August 24th, 2009, 4:11 pm

Hi guys, I have a website dedicated to the ROVV.

Check it out!

http://www.retentionofvision.com

Let me know what you think.

Thanks!

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Re: Mickey Silver's Coin Retention Vanish (Silver's Ultimate Vanish)

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 24th, 2009, 4:45 pm

retentionvision wrote:Hi guys, I have a website dedicated to the ROVV.

Check it out!

http://www.retentionofvision.com

Let me know what you think.

Thanks!


End of August, April is over six months away. A little early for such a prank - no?
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Reason: perspicacity for the mean

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Re: Mickey Silver's Coin Retention Vanish (Silver's Ultimate Vanish)

Postby Bill McFadden » August 24th, 2009, 4:50 pm

Okay, mate, but what has this to do with Mickey Silver? The rumpled bed background is a nice touch, though . . .

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Re: Mickey Silver's Coin Retention Vanish (Silver's Ultimate Vanish)

Postby Bill Wells » November 14th, 2009, 11:14 pm

*** Special Announcement ***

Mickey Silver will present a special lecture at the 2010 World Magic Seminar in Las Vegas next February 28 - March 3. He will lecture on his Retention Vanish (the SUV or Silver Ultimate Vanish). Mr. Silver will also lecture on a number of other items as well including his coin through glass door effect. A special gift momento will be given to each attendee. Mickey's lecture and close up performance will be accompanied by the release of his new DVD. Don't miss this special magic event!!

WMS Room rates at the Orleans are only $45 per night!!!
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Re: Mickey Silver's Coin Retention Vanish (Silver's Ultimate Vanish)

Postby Bill Wells » November 20th, 2009, 10:29 pm

Mickey will be giving the attendees at his lecture a special poker chip imprinted with Mickey Silver on one side and the World Magic Seminar on the other. This is the same type of chip that Mickey uses for practice.
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Re: Mickey Silver's Coin Retention Vanish (Silver's Ultimate Vanish)

Postby MagicOechsle » November 28th, 2009, 12:03 pm

Bill Wells wrote: *** Special Announcement ***

Mickey Silver will present a special lecture at the 2010 World Magic Seminar in Las Vegas next February 28 - March 3. He will lecture on his Retention Vanish (the SUV or Silver Ultimate Vanish).

How about the Blackpool magic convention? Although I live in Denmark, I was one of the lucky ones to receive a demo tape directly from Mickey Silver (thank you again for this, Mickey!) a few years ago.
There was no explanation on the tape but by watching it carefully I THINK I know what is going on. I haven't used the traditional ROV since - I only use (what I think is) the SUV.

If you attend the Blackpool convention, Mickey, I would love to discuss the SUV, coin or magic in general with you.
I definitely owe you a beer, coffee or a hug for changing my ROV forever!

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Re: Mickey Silver's Coin Retention Vanish (Silver's Ultimate Vanish)

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » March 8th, 2010, 9:52 am

How was the lecture?

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Re: Mickey Silver's Coin Retention Vanish (Silver's Ultimate Vanish)

Postby mrgoat » March 8th, 2010, 10:53 am

If it was anything like the lecture at International a couple of years back, then he doesn't actually tip his method at all. Most infuriating hour. He just showed you one move, for 60 minutes. And didn't teach it to you.

Lovely man, I met him and chatted. But to call what I saw a lecture is a misnomer. He may of course not be repeating what I saw and indeed be tipping his move nowadays of course. Just saying what I saw. :)

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Re: Mickey Silver's Coin Retention Vanish (Silver's Ultimate Vanish)

Postby Jonathan Townsend » March 8th, 2010, 1:24 pm

I was almost tempted to take Bill at his word and get out there for the SUV revelation and tutorial as promised.

Though now - from reports by attendees...
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Re: Mickey Silver's Coin Retention Vanish (Silver's Ultimate Vanish)

Postby Steve Bryant » March 8th, 2010, 1:47 pm

I've still not read any reports by attendees. Did Mickey or did he not reveal the method for his (awesome) retention vanish?

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Re: Mickey Silver's Coin Retention Vanish (Silver's Ultimate Vanish)

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » March 15th, 2010, 11:56 am

I see...there's a huge thread on the topic at the magic cafe'.

The summary seems to be: he did not give any details on the technique for the SUV. He detailed another vanish, and he delivered powerful messages on the overall philosophy behind vanishing a coin. I am finding this very disappointing....

In the myriad of posts however I found this link - I think you might find it interesting...(regarding this topic)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBCyscFVhV8

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Re: Mickey Silver's Coin Retention Vanish (Silver's Ultimate Vanish)

Postby Joe Mckay » March 15th, 2010, 12:17 pm

Mickey Silver's coin vanish is beautiful. But - I agree with Michael Close who wrote that placing a coin from one hand into the other is a very strange and un-natural thing to do. It is an action which only ever takes place during a magic trick. There is no other reason to do it...

I don't think I have seen anyone other than Michael mention that before...

Joe

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Re: Mickey Silver's Coin Retention Vanish (Silver's Ultimate Vanish)

Postby Jonathan Townsend » March 15th, 2010, 12:28 pm

Joe Mckay wrote:...an action which only ever takes place during a magic trick. There is no other reason to do it...

I don't think I have seen anyone other than Michael mention that before...

Joe


There's been discussion of how to put several coins into ones hand one at a time - where the closing action becomes necessary when the pile of coins gets large enough that they start to spill.

only posted on that topic a half dozen times ... so perhaps some here missed it.

Another closely related topic is the nature of the transfer, finding a motivation for such a studied action so far removed from what one would normally do when circumstances dictate. Also been discussed a good half dozen times but again some here may have missed that and the exercise to find ones own natural transfer action.

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Re: Mickey Silver's Coin Retention Vanish (Silver's Ultimate Vanish)

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » March 15th, 2010, 2:03 pm

About the video I posted...now I can see small flashes near the edge of the table (at about 0:41), which makes me believe that he simply dropped the coins and then edited them out (but not thoroughly)....the retention move looks real, but at this point I doubt the overall validity of the video.

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Re: Mickey Silver's Coin Retention Vanish (Silver's Ultimate Vanish)

Postby Jonathan Townsend » March 15th, 2010, 5:34 pm

They are doing the retention and the sell pretty well. With two coins on the sell - nice. :) You can hear the coins hit on that last vanish. Not sure if they darkened a few glimmers to cover some edge flash.
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Re: Mickey Silver's Coin Retention Vanish (Silver's Ultimate Vanish)

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » March 15th, 2010, 5:51 pm

there is also a suspicious change in focus at 0:07

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Re: Mickey Silver's Coin Retention Vanish (Silver's Ultimate Vanish)

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » March 15th, 2010, 9:19 pm

Joe Mckay wrote:Mickey Silver's coin vanish is beautiful. But - I agree with Michael Close who wrote that placing a coin from one hand into the other is a very strange and un-natural thing to do. It is an action which only ever takes place during a magic trick. There is no other reason to do it...

I don't think I have seen anyone other than Michael mention that before...

Joe


This is a very good point...but, could it be that the reason why no one else has ever mentioned it is because ordinary people are still fooled by it? Bottom line is that no one other than a hardcore magician would think that putting a coin from one hand into another is not natural, certainly not before the first time the move is observed.

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Re: Mickey Silver's Coin Retention Vanish (Silver's Ultimate Vanish)

Postby Kent Gunn » March 16th, 2010, 1:04 pm

Transferring any object, be it ball, egg, chunk of rope or a coin, between hands is only unnatural when you haven't routined a motivation for that action into the routine. This is the case in many coin tricks.

When the required actions (like a hand-to-hand transfer) of a trick are absorbed into a logical sequence you get . . .

Magic.

Not trying to discount MC's opinions on magic. I'm one of the guys who just collects books anyway.

KG

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Re: Mickey Silver's Coin Retention Vanish (Silver's Ultimate Vanish)

Postby Jonathan Townsend » March 16th, 2010, 1:08 pm

... you get

perhaps something that looks less self indulgent and transparently designed/contrived.
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Re: Mickey Silver's Coin Retention Vanish (Silver's Ultimate Vanish)

Postby Joe Mckay » March 16th, 2010, 2:32 pm

Well - This is definitely an area that most coin tricks seem to overlook. Indeed - for most bare handed coin vanishes, I find it hard to see how you could justify a hand-to-hand coin transfer at all. I mean if you had real magic powers surely you would show the coin with one hand and then close the fingers of the same hand around the coin - and then open it to show it has vanished. Why mess with shuffling the coin from hand to hand? It is a little illogical. Also - often coin tricks become a game of 'follow the other hand'. After being fooled the first couple of times it is pretty easy to teach yourself to keep your eyes on the supposedly empty hand instead...

This is all pretty basic stuff - and I am a card guy and not a coin guy. So - I am probably out of my depths in this discussion. But - it is one of those glaring ommisions which is rarely mentioned or addressed. Card magic has a similar thing with the double-lift. Why do we turn the card which has just being displayed back onto the deck before dealing it onto the table? Well - there is no reason except that the method requires that we have to. Jim Swain wrote a column in GENII talking about this and mentioned that Dai Vernon mentioned a similar thing at a lecture he gave...

Joe

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Re: Mickey Silver's Coin Retention Vanish (Silver's Ultimate Vanish)

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 16th, 2010, 2:34 pm

Slydini didn't do hand-to-hand transfers. Neither "puts" nor "takes," that why the coins just seemed to melt away in his hands.
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Re: Mickey Silver's Coin Retention Vanish (Silver's Ultimate Vanish)

Postby Joe Mckay » March 16th, 2010, 2:38 pm

Fair point. Like I say I am no expert in this field. The Slydini approach is one of the major plus points for the use of lapping...

Joe

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Re: Mickey Silver's Coin Retention Vanish (Silver's Ultimate Vanish)

Postby Curtis Kam » March 16th, 2010, 3:56 pm

Nonsense. There's at least one false transfer smack dab in the middle of Slydini's One Coin routine, and one at the end, (at least, as it's described in "Encores") both are "puts". And who in normal life transfers rolled up paper napkins from one hand to the other, and then points at the hand supposedly holding the ball, but who hasn't seen Slydini's "Balls in Hat"?

Vernon knew something about naturalness, and his handling of the retention vanish ("A Coin Vanish" in Greater Magic) is a "put", and those who ask, "Why mess with shuffling the coin from hand to hand? It is a little illogical," should consider Vernon's serial lack of "logic" in his fabled "Coins and Glass". He does the retention vanish five times in a row. Somehow, it works.

Goshman's hand to hand transfer was legendary, "illogical" and the backbone of his act.

In the real world yesterday, I transferred coins from one hand to the other at least five times. I bought two meals, had coffee with friends, and went to the drugstore. Each time, my change was returned to me, the coins on top of the bills. I don't happen to keep my money that way, I have a wallet for the bills in one pocket, and the change goes somewhere else. Would it have been "natural" for me to insist that cashiers place the bills in my right hand, but the change in my left, because real people don't transfer coins to the other side?

What to make of this? I suggest:

1. Naturalness isn't everything. It's a strategy, as are feints, exploiting the audience's assumptions, and false premises. There's no one tool that solves every problem. A good craftsman knows which to use.

2. If you absolutely, unerringly conform your actions, speech, and timing to the way "normal" people act in the "everyday" world, you will be awkward and boring in performance. The goal of naturalness is to make yourself blend into the crowd. Good idea for a card cheat or a ninja, but not the best plan for an entertainer. See Hugard's criticism of Erdnase, and Whit Hayden's work on this.

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Re: Mickey Silver's Coin Retention Vanish (Silver's Ultimate Vanish)

Postby Richard Kaufman » March 16th, 2010, 4:42 pm

Just shows you the power of the psychology of recollection. My recollection of Slydini's coin work (and that's all I was referring to, even though my post failed to make that clear--and I'm not a dimwit, Curtis, I'm well aware that "Paper Balls to Box" is filled with over-exaggerated false transfers) is that he didn't do any false transfers. That means he just did very good ones.
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Re: Mickey Silver's Coin Retention Vanish (Silver's Ultimate Vanish)

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » March 16th, 2010, 4:53 pm

Joe Mckay wrote:Well - This is definitely an area that most coin tricks seem to overlook. Indeed - for most bare handed coin vanishes, I find it hard to see how you could justify a hand-to-hand coin transfer at all. I mean if you had real magic powers surely you would show the coin with one hand and then close the fingers of the same hand around the coin - and then open it to show it has vanished. Why mess with shuffling the coin from hand to hand? It is a little illogical.


if you really had magic powers, why close your hand around the coin? just make it vanish - clearly if you close the fingers you are up to something. if you put it this way there are countless examples of moves that are a "bit illogical".

Again, you overdo the transfer/retention or you do it wrong (or too fast and it's not going to be magical. You do it the first time (right, in a routine etc.) and folks will be very fooled and surprised, but not for too long.

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Re: Mickey Silver's Coin Retention Vanish (Silver's Ultimate Vanish)

Postby Jonathan Townsend » March 16th, 2010, 7:13 pm

IMHO it's more about when one's actions appear both incongruent and contrived that folks are wont to presume the tricky stuff is happening. As long as that's your conscious choice in the matter and you've factored that into your work on both the method and presentation layers - not a problem.

One could argue that the covering (handkerchief, closed hand, box) is there so they can imagine something more impressive than what we are really doing as far as methods go - to have a place and time for the mystery.

There are items like the billiards and card productions which are done out in the open without cover. Using an IPV type aesthetic (no apparent motion where the magic happens) is far more difficult as they either are watching when it happens or are wont to take it as a challenge to be watching - unless you move that challenge to the background of your presentation.
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Re: Mickey Silver's Coin Retention Vanish (Silver's Ultimate Vanish)

Postby Carlo Morpurgo » March 16th, 2010, 10:21 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:IMHO it's more about when one's actions appear both incongruent and contrived that folks are wont to presume the tricky stuff is happening. As long as that's your conscious choice in the matter and you've factored that into your work on both the method and presentation layers - not a problem.


these two statements that you made are saying two different things.
I agree with the first, but not with the second - you can make a conscious choice yet a big mistake, whether it be because of misjudging the audience's perception, or simply because the moves just look too contrived.

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Re: Mickey Silver's Coin Retention Vanish (Silver's Ultimate Vanish)

Postby Jonathan Townsend » March 16th, 2010, 10:34 pm

I respect choices - even those which some audience feedback can quickly point out as suboptimal in context. Whether that feedback is used to direct a change of the method or presentation layer of a work seems a matter of taste.

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Re: Mickey Silver's Coin Retention Vanish (Silver's Ultimate Vanish)

Postby chetday » May 21st, 2011, 5:33 pm

Some wonderful videos of Mickey Silver practicing can be found on YouTube at http://www.youtube.com/user/SweenSpiciouS

I just spent half of today watching this man's remarkable magic. Wow!

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Re: Mickey Silver's Coin Retention Vanish (Silver's Ultimate Vanish)

Postby Daved » July 8th, 2011, 8:30 am

Hi!

From what I remember, attending one of the lectures of Mickey Silver, he explained "his" technique.
But this is not enough. To do it you must move like him, which would make you a perfect copy of him.

Having seen his work on the subject I must say I didn't care if he was transferring or not the coin from hand to hand, hand to mouth etc. It simply looked like real magic.
It was one of the few magicians who made me feel the magic like when I was a kid.

Regards,
Dave D.

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Re: Mickey Silver's Coin Retention Vanish (Silver's Ultima

Postby Dougini » August 26th, 2015, 9:29 pm

Hi again, guys!

Doug here. I started this topic back in Jan 2004. I am so glad I introduced you to Mickey Silver! Seeing the reactions y'all had really satisfies me. I know it wasn't just me. Mickey never did tip his work on the Silver Ultimate Vanish. He did share it with ONE person. And Vinny will NEVER reveal it. Is that a good thing?

Well, look at YouTube. Look at the tendency to expose anything and everything! There IS no respect for Magic any more. Now that I am BANNED from the Magic Cafe, I have no direct contact with Mickey. That saddens me. I hope he comes back here to say hi. I miss the little wizard!

Wow, I have been a member here longer than I thought...

Doug

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Re: Mickey Silver's Coin Magic Live

Postby Dougini » April 17th, 2016, 8:17 am

Hi guys! Doug here again. You may find this fascinating, if you are into coins. A unique perspective on Coins Across. I'll include cuts 2, 3 and 4 so you can see the range of talent here. Watch his eyes, Watch him shift his weight. Body language. Timing. Impeccable! There is only ONE Mickey Silver. His real name is Michael Sweeney. I am happy to call him a friend!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11VRDAxSiKU

Cut 2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ti0Mc0gGO_g

Cut 3:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMfpMAKhQbQ

Cut 4:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrY7xapZ9mE

Enjoy!

Doug

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Re: Mickey Silver's Coin Magic Live

Postby PhilYoung » April 17th, 2016, 3:10 pm

Dougini wrote:Hi guys! Doug here again. You may find this fascinating, if you are into coins. A unique perspective on Coins Across. I'll include cuts 2, 3 and 4 so you can see the range of talent here. Watch his eyes, Watch him shift his weight. Body language. Timing. Impeccable! There is only ONE Mickey Silver. His real name is Michael Sweeney. I am happy to call him a friend!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11VRDAxSiKU

Cut 2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ti0Mc0gGO_g

Cut 3:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMfpMAKhQbQ

Cut 4:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrY7xapZ9mE

Enjoy!

Doug


Doug, that was so painful to watch on many different levels. Mickey is a terrible performer. His crouching down the entire time, the stupid swooshing mouth s/fx, no clear verbal presentation and the senseless shifting of his body back and forth (I felt sea sick just watching for too long). If you admire him, you need to watch better coin guys than he. So he's got a good retention vanish, but the rest of his work is crap.

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Re: Mickey Silver's Coin Magic Live

Postby Steve Mills » April 17th, 2016, 6:00 pm

PhilYoung wrote:
Dougini wrote:Hi guys! Doug here again. You may find this fascinating, if you are into coins. A unique perspective on Coins Across. I'll include cuts 2, 3 and 4 so you can see the range of talent here. Watch his eyes, Watch him shift his weight. Body language. Timing. Impeccable! There is only ONE Mickey Silver. His real name is Michael Sweeney. I am happy to call him a friend!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11VRDAxSiKU

Cut 2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ti0Mc0gGO_g

Cut 3:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMfpMAKhQbQ

Cut 4:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrY7xapZ9mE

Enjoy!

Doug


Doug, that was so painful to watch on many different levels. Mickey is a terrible performer. His crouching down the entire time, the stupid swooshing mouth s/fx, no clear verbal presentation and the senseless shifting of his body back and forth (I felt sea sick just watching for too long). If you admire him, you need to watch better coin guys than he. So he's got a good retention vanish, but the rest of his work is crap.


Seems overly harsh. Is something else going on here?
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Re: Mickey Silver's Coin Retention Vanish (Silver's Ultimate Vanish)

Postby Jonathan Townsend » April 18th, 2016, 7:29 am

Carlo Morpurgo wrote:
Jonathan Townsend wrote:IMHO it's more about when one's actions appear both incongruent and contrived that folks are wont to presume the tricky stuff is happening. As long as that's your conscious choice in the matter and you've factored that into your work on both the method and presentation layers - not a problem.


these two statements that you made are saying two different things.
I agree with the first, but not with the second - you can make a conscious choice yet a big mistake, whether it be because of misjudging the audience's perception, or simply because the moves just look too contrived.


Yes, they are two ideas. The first is that being incongruent will be noticed and elicit appropriate feedback. Repeating that procedure in performance without evolving the process from feedback is also a mistake but we don't dwell on that so much. The second idea is about using that audience imagined "how you are doing it" to advantage in designing methods or presentation.
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Re: Mickey Silver's Coin Magic Live

Postby Dougini » April 18th, 2016, 12:55 pm

PhilYoung wrote:Doug, that was so painful to watch on many different levels. Mickey is a terrible performer.


That opinion is shared by many. His style is unique. It fits HIM. He seems to get raves in Vegas. He draws crowds. The feedback afterward is positive. No one seems to notice:

His crouching down the entire time,
the swooshing mouth s/fx
no clear verbal presentation
and the shifting of his body back and forth

But, I would never adopt that style! And no one should emulate him. But this world has many types of people. I look for the good in all. I try anyway...

PhilYoung wrote:(I felt sea sick just watching for too long). If you admire him, you need to watch better coin guys than he. So he's got a good retention vanish, but the rest of his work is crap.


I do admire him. Also Michael Rubinstein and David Roth. Phil's opinion seems harsh, but see, MANY people feel that way! But many DON'T. Not sure what the ratio is, but I like a LOT of different magic and performing styles. Thanks Phil!

Doug

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Re: Mickey Silver's Coin Retention Vanish (Silver's Ultimate Vanish)

Postby PhilYoung » April 18th, 2016, 3:20 pm

Just voicing my opinion, and if it's harsh, so be it. Are we to be sycophants just because he made a name for himself with a retention pass and not give our opinions regarding his overall performance? Nothing else going on Steve — never met Mickey, no personal vendetta; I just find his performing style atrocious. It's as if he's never had any training/foundation/criticism in terms of performing. Doug, you said,

"No one seems to notice:"

His crouching down the entire time,
the swooshing mouth s/fx
no clear verbal presentation
and the shifting of his body back and forth"


I did, and I'm sure others do too.

And, I can't imagine why Mickey is fooling himself that he thinks pushing a coin into his eye (and ears) fools ANYONE! If he had a false glass eye and took it out, placed it on the table, then did his retention into his eye, then that would make sense. It would majorly gross people out and still might not fool anyone, and I digress, but I hope all understand my point.

True, there are many performing styles in magic, I just happen to think his is inferior, and I can't see any good in any of it. And if I ever met Mickey, I would probably ask who his mentors/teachers were and voice the same opinions that I made here.

Brad Henderson
Posts: 4008
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: austin, tx

Re: Mickey Silver's Coin Retention Vanish (Silver's Ultimate Vanish)

Postby Brad Henderson » April 18th, 2016, 9:34 pm

is he still around? working?


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