Video of Roth's Standup Copper/Silver Classic?

[GJohnson]

Hi All,

I'm interested to know if anyone can point me to a video performance of Roth's Standup Copper/Silver Classic routine from Coinmagic.

Thanks in advance.

[Anthony Vinson]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCxk373AA7I

Here you are. It's a great trick that I use all the time. Richard's description in Coin Magic is superb; I didn't see a video of the trick until years, maybe decades, after I started performing it.

Av

[GJohnson]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCxk373AA7I

Here you are. It's a great trick that I use all the time. Richard's description in Coin Magic is superb; I didn't see a video of the trick until years, maybe decades, after I started performing it.

Av

Thanks, that's a great video, however it's a seated performance of C/S.

I'm looking for the standing performance, because the coin displays are different, as is the final phase.

[Anthony Vinson]

Well, you can find it on Volume 1 of David Roth's Ultimate Coin Magic originally published by L&L. He performs the trick standing, using the Fred Kapps "in the spectator's hand" ending, then sits for the explanation and several alternative endings. Since I'm not sure exactly what you seek, I am hard pressed to recommend the video for that effect only, but if you are interested in Roth's work beyond Copper/Silver Classic, you certainly can't go wrong.

Best of luck with your search. Again, it's a great trick and one that I have performed for many years. It'' serve you well!

Av

[GJohnson]

Well, you can find it on Volume 1 of David Roth's Ultimate Coin Magic originally published by L&L.

Yes, that's the one.

I was hoping to find just a performance of the routine on the internet, but I don't think that's going to happen.

Thanks for your help.

[CraigOusterling]

This is my all time favorite c/s coin routine to do. I don't recall ever seeing this on video anywhere? It's very p2p change intensive. It's literally WHY I learned the p2p change taught for this routine.

[GJohnson]

This is my all time favorite c/s coin routine to do. I don't recall ever seeing this on video anywhere? It's very p2p change intensive. It's literally WHY I learned the p2p change taught for this routine.

Craig, do you own David Roth's Ultimate Coin Magic Vol.1? If so, you don’t recall seeing the Standing Copper/Silver routine?

I’ve been working on the p2p change for 9 months. Yup. 9 months. I’m only now getting to the point where coin talking is minimized, but I still haven’t eliminated it, and I definitely have not achieved sufficient naturalness. That’s what Roth did so well! I’m primarily using the method taught in Coinmagic.

[Jeffrey Cowan]

Roth's p2p technique was remarkable. I visited him at the FAO Schwarz counter on a visit to NYC in the fall of '86 or '87, and he gave me some pointers on the move (which I had been learning from his Tannen's video). Then he demonstrated the p2p change with two pairs of dice. Flawless, silent, inspiring -- and humbling.

[Anthony Vinson]

This is my all time favorite c/s coin routine to do. I don't recall ever seeing this on video anywhere? It's very p2p change intensive. It's literally WHY I learned the p2p change taught for this routine.

I’ve been working on the p2p change for 9 months. Yup. 9 months. I’m only now getting to the point where coin talking is minimized, but I still haven’t eliminated it, and I definitely have not achieved sufficient naturalness. That’s what Roth did so well! I’m primarily using the method taught in Coinmagic.

It took me awhile to master it. I don't recall how long, but it seemed interminable. Once I became comfortable with it I found lots of uses. Though there are still some occasional issues with talking, I am currently at about 90% reliability with dollar-size coins.

As I mentioned previously, Richard's description in Coin Magic is great. That's where I learned it, and without benefit of video. Persistence and practice will pay off. Keep at it and best of luck. Once you begin performing the routine, you'll be happy with the time invested learning the sleight.

[GJohnson]

I am currently at about 90% reliability with dollar-size coins.

As I mentioned previously, Richard's description in Coin Magic is great. That's where I learned it, and without benefit of video. Persistence and practice will pay off. Keep at it and best of luck. Once you begin performing the routine, you'll be happy with the time invested learning the sleight.

90% reliability with dollars is impressive. I'm about there with halves. I don't think my hands are large enough for p2p with dollars (I've tried).

The question I have with the description in Coinmagic is the palm up display with the hands angled inward. I'm not sure how this is supposed to look. How high are the hands? Are the hands tilted down so the spectators can better see the coins? This is why I'd like to see a performance of the routine.

If this is approaching unacceptable method reveal, feel free to send me a PM.

[Richard Kaufman]

The Palm Change was originally done with dice. It's an old gambler's switch. The first to do it with coins was Earl Presto Johnson. Roth's technique is far more difficult and requires a long second finger. There's no reason to do it that way. If you look in CoinMagic (my book) you'll see the technique I devised because Roth's was impossible for me. It turns out I reinvented what Kaps was doing, and what most other folks do. If you don't have a long second finger Roth's technique is near impossible.

And unless I'm mistaken, the stand up version of the routine is described in either CoinMagic or David Roth's Expert Coin Magic. I used to do it. In fact, I can still do it!

And what the hell is with this P2P nonsense title?

[Philippe Billot]

"The Palm Change was originally done with dice. It's an old gambler's switch"

And you can find it in Shoot the Works, page 42 by Ed Marlo, published in 1942.

[GJohnson]

I originally referenced Coinmagic in my first post. The Standing Copper/Silver routine is on page 46.

Kaps' palm change technique is only found in Fred Kaps Purse book. Is that correct?

[Richard Kaufman]

I have not read the Kaps Purse book, but depending upon the author the description might not be accurate. I only know that I was told that the technique I developed (because the Roth technique was impossible for me) was essentially the same as what Kaps did.

[GJohnson]

FYI...
Fred Kaps Purse

[Frank Yuen]

I am currently at about 90% reliability with dollar-size coins.

The question I have with the description in Coinmagic is the palm up display with the hands angled inward. I'm not sure how this is supposed to look. How high are the hands? Are the hands tilted down so the spectators can better see the coins? This is why I'd like to see a performance of the routine.

If this is approaching unacceptable method reveal, feel free to send me a PM.

Are you referring to illustration 166? If so. the routine is performed with the forearms parallel (maybe angled slightly downward) to the floor. The spectators are looking down at the coins.

[GJohnson]

Are you referring to illustration 166? If so. the routine is performed with the forearms parallel (maybe angled slightly downward) to the floor. The spectators are looking down at the coins.

That's new information.

I'm having difficulty envisioning seated spectators looking down at coins in the hands of a standing performer unless the magician's hands and forearms are tilted down at a significant angle.

You can see why I asked about a video performance.

[Anthony Vinson]

Are you referring to illustration 166? If so. the routine is performed with the forearms parallel (maybe angled slightly downward) to the floor. The spectators are looking down at the coins.

That's new information.

I'm having difficulty envisioning seated spectators looking down at coins in the hands of a standing performer unless the magician's hands and forearms are tilted down at a significant angle.

You can see why I asked about a video performance.

Frank is correct. Whenever I have performed for seated spectators while standing, I simply "bend down" into their space so they might easily follow the changes. That said, I almost always perform this while standing for spectators that are as well. Also, I do not use the "guess which hand" line, instead opting to make it a brief treatise on teleportation. I begin with Clarke's third law: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. YMMV.

[GJohnson]

I almost always perform this while standing for spectators that are as well.

Standup Copper/Silver.

Sometimes it's all in the title.

It all makes sense now.

Thanks.

[Richard Kaufman]

Correct: you do the stand up version for standing spectators, and the seated version for seated spectators.
I was able to read a copy of the Fred Kaps technique for the Palm Change and it is, indeed, what I reinvented and what is published in CoinMagic.

[GJohnson]

Thank you for both clarifications, Richard.

[Ian Kendall]

One wee snippet of advice on the palm to palm transfer; you have to drop the palmed coin >before< you start moving the coin at fingertips. If you try to speed up the move by doing the two moves at the same time, you'll talk every time.

This is one of those moves where 'slow is smooth, smooth is fast' comes into play.

[GJohnson]

Hello Ian,

Yes, that's the way I rehearse the Palm Change.

I have recently realized slower is okay, and may actually enhance the effect. What I'm endeavoring to accomplish is a natural move. After all, closing a coin (or an object) into one's fist does not take long, and is an action we are all familiar with in our everyday lives.

Thank you for your tips.

[Richard Kaufman]

There is no reason to do the Palm Change quickly. I should make a video.

[GJohnson]

There is no reason to do the Palm Change quickly. I should make a video.

If you ever decide to make a video, I’d sure be appreciative!

[erdnasephile]

John Carney has a really nice handling of the Palm Change in his "The Master Sessions" DVD set. The teaching is top notch and he also provides an excellent natural motivation for the move.

[GJohnson]

Kainoa Harbottle has a very nice Palm Change tutorial in his Coins 101 series on reelmagicmagazine.com.

He teaches the Kaps/Kaufman technique (as far as I can tell from reading Coinmagic…Richard may have something to say here), but I can’t recall to whom he attributes the sleight.

[Ian Kendall]

I have a lesson on the move in Basic Coin Magic 2.0

[Ian Kendall]

"There is no reason to do the Palm Change quickly."

Exactly, but sometimes people coming to coin magic, particularly from cards, often try to make things faster than they need to be, usually through fear of getting caught mid move.

[Tom Gilbert]

Kainoa's Palm to Palm changes are explained in his Coins 101 Copper/Silver chapter. Some good information and he also shows a good change using finger palm. He mentioned the Palm to Palm change might be the hardest move in coin magic.

[Anthony Vinson]

I almost always perform this while standing for spectators that are as well.

Standup Copper/Silver.

Sometimes it's all in the title.

It all makes sense now.

Thanks.

LOL. Just tryin' to help. If I mistakenly waxed obvious in my enthusiasm, please forgive me. Being human is hell.

[GJohnson]

Standup Copper/Silver.

Sometimes it's all in the title.

It all makes sense now.

Thanks.

LOL. Just tryin' to help. If I mistakenly waxed obvious in my enthusiasm, please forgive me. Being human is hell.

Not at all!

My comment was entirely self deprecating.

Honestly, I never considered the routine is for the situation where both magician and spectators are standing. You all lifted the veil.