Cups and Balls

[El Mystico]

Hi
I'm trying to track down a cups and balls sequence where the movement of a ball from cup to cup is achieved not through sleight of hand, but by a clever choreography in the movement of the cups...does this ring a bell with anyone? Thanks!

[Philippe Billot]

May be Aldo Colombini with his adaptation of the "Flustration move" with goblets ?

[MagicbyAlfred]

May be Aldo Colombini with his adaptation of the "Flustration move" with goblets ?

Aldo used the "Flustration move" in order to facilitate the penetration sequences in the beginning of his routine. He also employed the move again at the end of the routine to set up the flash vanish of a ball and it's reappearance under the center cup, but that required a skillful steal of the ball from the top of the center cup as he clanged the other two cups together. The routine can be seen here:

The routine is creative and off the beaten path of the typical Vernonesque C & B routines, as there is no talking or use of a wand. But while it was deceptive, he worked so fast, it was hard to follow and to assimilate the effects.
The routine can be seen here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9xWulUssHQ

Nonetheless, a great magician! A special, entertaining performer, with a charming personality, who created some exceptionally clever tricks and routines, I have long admired and really liked Aldo and his magic. He is greatly missed.

[katterfelt0]

There's a bit called the Galloping Post move where, for example, the three cups are stacked mouth down and there is a ball resting on top of the middle cup. In the act of moving the top cup to the table you steal the ball from the middle cup by dragging the top cup along the top of the second cup and, in the process, you load a ball under the (formerly) top cup.

[Richard Kaufman]

You can see Frank Garcia do the Galloping Post in any video of him doing Cups and Balls.

[Tarotist]

I watched the Aldo Columbino routine but somehow couldn't get excited about it. Of course I am not a layman so I do acknowledge that my opinion doesn't count. But then a magician who likes the routine has the same problem--he doesn't count either! I have always held the view that only the opinions of laymen count.

1. I didn't like the preliminary palaver at the beginning. That is a major fault of magicians, even famous ones. They chatter for ages before the trick even starts doing great damage to the axiom that action is louder than words.
2. Once the trick starts there is no palaver at all! This makes it harder to follow the effect besides being a bit boring,
3. As Alfred noted it is difficult to follow the effect. Charlie Miller once remarked that some cups and balls routines can be very confusing. I think this is one of them.
4. There are no large loads. And of course the large loads are always the strongest part of the trick. I will concede that I also have a routine using no large loads but I have a specific reason for that course of action. Besides I am a remarkable human being and as such normal rules do not apply to me.

Anyway I consider this to be a prime example of magic for magicians. I actually have the original Ganson description and loved the routine when I read it. Alas I was young and inexperienced at the time thinking all the fancy moves were wonderful. After seeing it now I realise it is just what old time magicians would call "conjuring for conjurers"

[MagicbyAlfred]

There's a bit called the Galloping Post move where, for example, the three cups are stacked mouth down and there is a ball resting on top of the middle cup. In the act of moving the top cup to the table you steal the ball from the middle cup by dragging the top cup along the top of the second cup and, in the process, you load a ball under the (formerly) top cup.

Yes, that's what I was attempting to describe in my prior post in regard to the sequence at the very end where a ball is resting atop the center cup and he steals it under one of the other cups in the act of clanging them together above the ball. Not the classic galloping post move, per se, but essentially in the same family.

[MagicbyAlfred]

Anyway I consider this to be a prime example of magic for magicians. I actually have the original Ganson description and loved the routine when I read it. Alas I was young and inexperienced at the time thinking all the fancy moves were wonderful. After seeing it now I realise it is just what old time magicians would call "conjuring for conjurers"

Exactly. Too long and too fast. But at least he tried to do something original and different, rather than a clone of Vernon's routine, like most of the routines I've seen performed, which are too long, too hard for laymen to follow, and accompanied by boring or dreary patter.

[Philippe Billot]

About Aldo Colombini: in fact, He did that he has said : he kills a classic.

It's more magic for magicians.

But if my memory serves me: he wins a close-up 2nd price with this routine in the FISM 1976.

So the judges judges him correctly: second, not the first!

[Tarotist]

That's the trouble with those competitions. The ones that win are the magic for magicians types. I would love to see a magic competition where ALL the judges were laymen. The only thing they had to judge was which one they liked the best. I bet magicians would be surprised and shocked by the decisions.

[El Mystico]

Thanks everyone. It's not the Colombini routine I had in mind. But I share your thoughts about it!

[MagicbyAlfred]

You can see Frank Garcia do the Galloping Post in any video of him doing Cups and Balls.

Unfortunately, this is still not an answer to El Mystico's question, but hey, any chance to discuss the C & B. For those who may be interested, in the variation of the Galloping Post move Aldo Colombini incorporated into his routine, and discussed above, a bit of research reveals that it is, in turn, a variation on Cellini's "Elevator Move," which was published in The Close-Up Magic of Frank Garcia, Vol. 1, and I believe, in Cellini's book, The Royal Touch. Or, perhaps what Aldo does can be more accurately described as a synthesis of the Galloping Post and Elevator moves.

The difference is that, after Cellini clangs the two end cups together over the center cup, which has a ball on top, he nests the two cups on top of the center one. When the top cup of the stack of three is then removed, the effect is that the ball has penetrated upwards from the top of the bottom (previously center) cup and is sitting on top of the cup immediately above it. Hence, the "elevator" move. In Aldo's variation, after the cups are clanged together, they are pulled away to the left and right, respectively, to show that the ball has vanished. Quite striking and visual. The "ball" is then shown to be underneath the center cup. I guess the effect could be described as either a vanish and reappearance, or as a penetration, and can be seen in the video, the link to which I provided in my previous post here.

[Jonathan Townsend]

That's the trouble with those competitions. The ones that win are the magic for magicians types. I would love to see a magic competition where ALL the judges were laymen. The only thing they had to judge was which one they liked the best. I bet magicians would be surprised and shocked by the decisions.

That's pretty much how I design routines.
And if the lay audience has an interesting description of what they think happened - effects (in terms of patter or props) too.
Magic is for them. For us it's a lot of work for what amounts to a joke the audience tells themselves.

[Philippe Billot]

"Unfortunately, this is still not an answer to El Mystico's question"

I think it's because it's a difficult question as I can't imagine what sort of choregraphy is used for "the movement of the cups"

But if you want a routine "out of the ordinary", I suggest you read Cups and Balls by Ed Marlo in Linking Ring, Vol. 45, no. 2, february 1965, page 86.

[Tarotist]

I have a strong suspicion that this silly little routine is as good as any. Unlike all the fancy ones under discussion this got nearly 4 million views!

https://www.tiktok.com/@lifescrazy25/vi ... Fwww.tikto

[Joe Mckay]

Maybe look up the ingenious choreography that Peter Kane uses in a sequence for the Cups and Balls? Tommy Wonder teaches this sequence in The Books of Wonder.

[Joe Mckay]

It is called A Three-Cup Load and is on page 98 of the second volume of The Books of Wonder.

Peter Kane was a wonderful creator. He is one of my all-time heroes.

[BarryAllen]

I have a strong suspicion that this silly little routine is as good as any. Unlike all the fancy ones under discussion this got nearly 4 million views!

https://www.tiktok.com/@lifescrazy25/vi ... Fwww.tikto

I'm not backing you up again for the sake of it but that is just about as direct as any Cups & Balls routines needs to be.

I forget which well-known Magician wrote the following - but to paraphrase him "many years ago, I was sitting at a convention with my wife, watching Dai Vernon perform his Cups & Balls routine. About 2 minutes in, I turned to her and asked - where do you think the ball is now"? She turned back to me and looking bored, said "who really cares".

The basic routine, particularly with the addition of their hand, resonates with people. Anyone who doubts that has never stood behind a shop counter as a young teenager, demming the trick and selling them by the shed load to foreign tourists.

[PressureFan]

I think it was Don Alan's wife who made the comment on the routine.

[Tarotist]

I think it was Don Alan's wife who made the comment on the routine.

To be fair to Vernon I read somewhere ( I think it was Harry Lorayne who said it) that magicians wives are not laymen. Mind you, I have a vague memory (and I may be wrong) that it was Charlie Miller's cups and balls routine that Don Alan's wife was lukewarm about.

[MagicbyAlfred]

I read quite a few of the multitude of comments following Mark's TikTok video of the C & B. The outpouring of appreciation and admiration is remarkable. Most telling is that the overwhelming majority of the comments were not about the trick, but Mark, himself -- glowing comments such as how much they love him, his presentation, his lines/comedy, and his voice. He has much to be proud of. People want to be entertained far more than they want to be fooled.

[Tarotist]

I learned very early on that entertainment is more important than the tricks and that you have to sell YOURSELF first before selling the trick.
I learned it from one of my first books on magic by Wilfrid Jonson which was written in the foreword in his card trick book. He said, "We would impress upon the reader that the first aim of the conjurer is to entertain. If he will remember that fact he will not go far wrong"

He also wrote this in another foreword to his book on more general magic, "First you should remember that the first aim of a conjurer is not PRIMARILY to deceive. That is his secondary object--his first being to ENTERTAIN" Those tiny tidbits of advice were more valuable to me that all the tricks in his books (good as they were) put together.

As for the cups and balls routine I did it has one advantage over all the other routines out there. It can actually be learned and mastered in five minutes! (The presentation might take a little longer of course)

[BarryAllen]

It may well have been Don Alan and Charlie Miller's routine. Whatever the case, it clearly went on a bit too long from her perspective.

Therein lies a problem in my honest opinion - MOST Cups & Balls routines just go on for far too long.

Eye-candy for Magicians at Conventions and (dreadful) Magic Competitions perhaps. However, in the Modern-day World, I honestly don't think that most of the classic C&B routines are fit for purpose.

Why do I say this?

Well, firstly in the UK, the places that you could perform these types of routines, are severely limited. At the vast majority of venues, there is nowhere to sit down; and extremely limited table space to work, even if you could.

Secondly, I really don't think given the forever decreasing attention spans of people today, that many performers could retain interest with a Cups & Balls routine for more than about 2 minutes - certainly not in the UK anyway.

Then we come onto the longer routines. To continually spin a wand,/drop transfer/gone, spin a wand/drop transfer/gone, etc. etc.........do you SERIOUSLY think guys that people are continually fooled by this part of a routine? You may get away with it the first time, with some people possibly a second time (at most) - but people aren't fools. If something isn't in one hand, it must obviously be in the other.

Even Ricky Jay, an absolutely superb, creative, sublime performer, I believe fell into this trap. The wand spin and the ball transfer just NEVER looked natural in my view - irrespective of whether it was Ricky, Dai Vernon, or any other masters of our art.

Lastly - the end production of fruit (or other object). WHY? What is the relevance of this apparent forever necessary climax, to the routine that has gone before?

Ask people after a show "what did the Magician do with those cups"? "Ohhhhh errrrr, he produced an orange". Wow. Well the rest of the routine clearly registered then - not.

Suffice to say that I adore the prop(s) and the basic effect(s) - BUT a simple, angle-proof, quick, hard-hitting routine such as Mark performed; whereby clarity of effect is key; is all that you really need in today's world to entertain folk.

No doubt many will disagree - but I honestly believe that if you consider the a long drawn out Cups & Balls routine is a commercial worker that meets today's demands, then the only people you are fooling, is yourselves

[Edward Pungot]

I remember seeing Jared Kopf perform the cups & balls…
On stage.
Pretty much the Vernon sequences.
And it was sublime.

[Tarotist]

Ironically it was Charlie Miller who said that cups and balls routines go on far too long! It seems that Don Alan's wife said the same about him! Still, I mustn't be cynical!

I do believe that large loads finale have a VERY strong effect and in most cases are what laymen remember after witnessing the trick. However, there are certain disadvantages too which have to be considered. One of course is the sheer inconvenience of carting the large loads around with you which I think is a bloody nuisance. However, a more serious disadvantage is something that only I, in my infinite genius, have noticed. Or at least I have never seen it mentioned. In order to get this great finish in many cases you have to, for technical reasons, resort to procedures which drag the trick out and confuse the general effect. In other words you have to weaken the balls part of things to get to the big finish of the large loads. I think if you are going to do the large loads then you need to be aware of this preceding confusion problem and work out a way around it. Perhaps cutting down on other moves or maybe finding another way of loading the big stuff with less preceding confusion and dilution of effect.

I do have various solutions to this and at one point contemplated writing a small book on the cups and balls with my variations but decided against it since I dislike writing technical information having to describe sleights and so on. It is actually a difficult thing to do and I have read some fine magic books where the authors fall down in this regard. I don't blame these authors because it is a difficult thing to do and not everyone has the knack for it. I can just about manage it myself but I really don't enjoy trying to explain which finger goes where and so on. I have always thought that Harry Lorayne is the best at this but it isn't easy..

I sort of managed it in my Annotated Royal Road to Card Magic but it hit me while doing it how hard it was and how well Hugard and Braue managed it although it wasn't 100% perfect. But who gets 100% anyway?

[BarryAllen]

Thats another very good point Mark. Carrying around loads, such as potatoes, oranges and apples, etc. is yet another reason that I always steered clear of such a finale. I've seen a few magicians at club shows over the years, that look as if they need to book themselves in to see a Hernia Surgeon.

Moreover, I can count on two fingers of one hand the amount of Magicians that I've seen (live), who've managed to load a cup convincingly/faultlessly. One was Mark Raffles, loading live chicks. The other was Ken Brooke, loading a larger ball, whilst demming the Chop Cup.

I fully accept Edward that it's an effect whereby it possibly plays better on stage. Then again, when working on Stage (or in Cabaret) the timing of a routine is completely different anyway; compared to working within a Close-up environment. You also have completely different elements of misdirection (such as body movement) at your disposal; as opposed to when you are working at a venue with tightly packed tables; not to mention audience members literally a foot away, more closely 'burning your hands'.

[MagicbyAlfred]

I agree with those who have opined that most cups and balls routines drag on too long, and IMHO, this includes (sacrilege of sacrileges) the Vernon routine. Maybe it was suitable in a bygone era, when attention spans were longer (possibly), when it wasn't the sound-bite world of today, as Barry pointed out, and when magicians weren't competing with people's compulsion to get back to their phones. It can be analogized somewhat to telling a joke (which, truthfully, most people s _ _ k at) that drags on and on before mercifully getting to the punchline. The production of the three (I prefer four) pieces of fruit is the punchline, and usually all that people remember of the routine. Producing large balls is also strong, but not as strong as the fruit, based on laymen reaction over the years of trying both..

I don't think that producing fruit weakens the trick, or creates any logical conundrum worth being concerned about, but rather it strengthens it immeasurably. Indeed, it totally blows the minds of laymen, and to me, that's what counts. It is the sheer incongruity of these pieces of fruit coming from nowhere (and, of course, the size and different colors) that creates a tremendous surprise -- and surprise is the essence of a good magic trick. Maybe I'm just lucky, but the final loading sequence always came pretty natural to me.

Yes, the Cups and Balls is certainly impractical for walk-around (but I will never not do the chop cup or some one-cup routine at a table when strolling). Of course, Mark's version isn't impractical at all for table-side, and his ending with a production in the spectator's hand is quite strong. But for a smaller stand-up or parlor show, provided that visibility isn't an issue, the full-size Cups and Balls packs a tremendous wallop. A piece of fruit atop each cup, with the inexplicable fourth piece in front, makes for an incomparable display and is a thing of beauty. Most of the time, I use the Cups and Balls as my next-to-last trick for a show, using the beautiful cups I got from Brett Sherwood - signed Card on Ceiling always being my closer, when feasible.

[Tarotist]

Oh, my TikTok routine is just a pitch routine with tiny cups! It is not a routine I would do for a standard show. With the larger cups I do have a routine where I put aside the two cups I have been using and do a sort of chop cup routine (no magnets) and end up with two large sponge balls. I am then in a position to put the cups aside and go into a longer sponge ball sequence and of course that sequence is just as strong as three large loads.

I also have a routine which is along the normal lines of ending up with three large loads. However, I really don't want to cart around three pieces of fruit so I just end up with large sponge balls. However, I can then go into a sponge ball routine with them. So I can sort of get the best of both words that way.

One of my favourite routines is where I use no large loads at all. I end by ditching the cups and go into one in the hand and two in the pocket standard stuff and end with the balls disappearing.

[MagicbyAlfred]

Carl Anderson, a very fine restaurant magician from Hawaii, had a similar idea for using sponge balls as the final load in his two-cup routine, and then immediately following up with a fantastic sponge ball routine. In fact, he performs and teaches these very well-constructed and entertaining routines on his DVD, "The Table Hopping Cups and Balls.," which I picked up about 10 years ago. I have really enjoyed and highly recommend this DVD. Although I have been inspired by Carl, I have never performed his particular routines, preferring to create my own.

[Tarotist]

I vaguely remember a magician from Hawaii doing that and his first name was indeed Carl. However, I don't think his last name was Anderson. Still, I bet we are talking about the same guy.

[Richard Kaufman]

If you think the Cups and Balls is too long, you might enjoy reading Dr. Daley's routine from, I think, The Sphinx in the 1930s. Haha!

[Edward Pungot]

Carl Andrews

But the connection to Carl Anderson brings up some magic lyrics to a song from the 80s.

[MagicbyAlfred]

Carl Andrews

But the connection to Carl Anderson brings up some magic lyrics to a song from the 80s.

Ah yes, Carl Andrews. that's it. Thanks for setting the record straight, Edward. Serves me right for attempting to post when half asleep. Mark was right on all 4 counts too. His first name is Carl, he is from Hawaii, his last name is not Anderson, and we were talking about the same guy.

[BarryAllen]

I remember first seeing Johnny Paul on UK television around 1979? A superb, engaging performer, that did the basics so brilliantly. His Close-up Cards Across in particular, stood out for me.

Then I remembered seeing his Cups & Balls routine on the Paul Daniels Magic Show (which I've now found to share):
https://youtu.be/h92zBAEdPP8

This to my mind, is an ideal example of a Cups & Balls routine that just goes on for far too long. There's actually a couple of occasions when I haven't got the first idea of what's supposed to have just happened - and the delayed audience response at times, suggests I'm not alone.

Notwithstanding the fact that with all that unnecessary banging and crashing of the cups on the counter throughout, it's a pity he didn't produce a packet of Paracetamol at the end to go along with the lemon!

[Edward Pungot]

Supernormal stimulus
The magic word for today.
I think it encapsulates the allure and enduring power that the cups and balls has had on magicians. Maybe even more so for it’s practitioners than for the lay audience.
It’s an ambitious and challenging production.
(and just about everything else in between)

[Philippe Billot]

If you think the Cups and Balls is too long, you might enjoy reading Dr. Daley's routine from, I think, The Sphinx in the 1930s. Haha!

Isn't it rather in The Jinx no. 37, August 1938? (but I can make a mistake...)

[Tarotist]

Yes. I actually remember seeing Johnny Paul do the cups and balls on television. It was indeed somewhat confusing. Mind you I have seen other videos of him and he was indeed a superb performer. I remember Ken Brooke used to rave about him.

Anyway I just watched it again. It is six minutes long! WAY too long! Interesting that he only produces one large load rather than the usual three. He obviously doesn't like carting around the big loads either!

[MagicbyAlfred]

Supernormal stimulus
The magic word for today.
I think it encapsulates the allure and enduring power that the cups and balls has had on magicians. Maybe even more so for it’s practitioners than for the lay audience...

Yes, magicians do love the cups and balls, but so do laymen when it is artfully done.

Somewhere in the dark recesses of my mind I have a memory of John Mendoza having a version of the Cups and Balls that is under a minute in length! A couple penetrations, maybe a transposition or two, and BAM, 3 large balls are revealed. I can't remember which video I saw it on, but it's on one of the volumes of the "My Best" series DVDs and was called the "Flash Cups and Balls." I don't know if it's been published in print. But it struck me as being TOO short. While the typical C & B routine is far too long, one can also go too far over to the other end of the spectrum. There's a happy medium, and there needs to be some build-up; otherwise there will not be maximum impact to the revelation of the large loads. Too quick is kind of like premature ____ation.

*For those with unclean minds, I was referring to premature REVelation.

[Tarotist]

My little pitch routine with the cups is only one minute and 18 seconds long! Of course that is just a basic routine for selling purposes. I think three minutes is about right. Perhaps 4 minutes if you are a really good entertainer. Longer than that is pushing it.

Incidentally talking about videos I was delighted to get this email out of the blue this morning. It is really nice to be appreciated by laymen.

"I just wanted to say thank you for putting up your videos on YouTube. My son Henry is learning card magic and he and I have had hours of entertainment watching your tricks. You have a fantastic rapport with your audience and such amazingly nimble hands! I wish we lived closer to you as we would certainly hire you for a party or come visit otherwise.

You have several new fans here in California ! "

[Dave Le Fevre]

Some time in the 1970s, my wife and I went to an open evening at The Magic Circle. The format was stage show, close-up, stage show. One of the stage acts was Terri Rogers, an absolutely hilarious vent performance.

One of the close-up routines was cups & balls, using three ordinary kitchen mugs. When the final loads appeared, my wife’s jaw hit the floor. I think that, to this day, were she asked what was the single most astounding magic performance she’s ever seen, she’d reply that cups & balls routine. The performer was engaging and entertaining, but it was the balls changing into three different fruit or vegetables that stunned her.