Cups and Balls

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.
MagicbyAlfred
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Re: Cups and Balls

Postby MagicbyAlfred » October 21st, 2022, 9:57 am

Dave Le Fevre wrote:Some time in the 1970s, my wife and I went to an open evening at The Magic Circle. The format was stage show, close-up, stage show. One of the stage acts was Terri Rogers, an absolutely hilarious vent performance.

One of the close-up routines was cups & balls, using three ordinary kitchen mugs. When the final loads appeared, my wife’s jaw hit the floor. I think that, to this day, were she asked what was the single most astounding magic performance she’s ever seen, she’d reply that cups & balls routine. The performer was engaging and entertaining, but it was the balls changing into three different fruit or vegetables that stunned her.


Love stories like that, Dave. As Vernon always advocated, "A good magic effect should easily be described in one sentence."

And as much as a stunner as the appearance of 3 different fruits/vegetables certainly is, the production of a fourth one delivers a devastating knockout blow. I cannot count how many times laymen have exclaimed to me, with incredulous, scrunched-up faces, words to the effect of, "'That's impossible, there are only three cups!" And loading the fourth load is no harder, and maybe even less detectible, than the first 3, because, if anything, the misdirection is strongest at that point, as they are so stunned at the prior revelations.

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Re: Cups and Balls

Postby El Mystico » October 21st, 2022, 11:09 am

Thank you everyone!
Dave; pity you can't remember who the close-up performer was!
As to length...did Vernon say that the great thing about cups and balls was that you could use it to demonstrate all the main effects in magic? He didn't say you had to...
But I do think that many C&B routines could be improved by pointing up the individual effects, with patter and changes of pace.

I think I was too enigmatic in my original request though!
He's the situation. In the middle of a routine, you lift a cup and move it backwards to show there is nothing beneath it... but in reality there is a ball, but you don't lift the cup high enough for the ball to appear when you move the cup back. After that, you have an 'empty' cup which can be moved anywhere.

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Re: Cups and Balls

Postby Dave Le Fevre » October 21st, 2022, 11:15 am

You make a good point. And there may have been a fourth item, or possibly even a second set of three new items.

It was almost fifty years ago, and the only two things that I remember of that evening were Terri Rogers' performance, and my wife's reaction to the appearance of those three items. My jaw dropped too, but my wife's jaw-drop reaction was huge.

I really enjoy that aspect of close-up magic. The performer isn't on TV. The performer isn't on a stage. The performer is only a metre from the spectators, yet the physically impossible happens. That was the cause of my wife's reaction - "but he's just in front of us, where on earth did those come from!!!" (or something like that).

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Re: Cups and Balls

Postby El Mystico » October 21st, 2022, 11:20 am

BarryAllen wrote:I remember first seeing Johnny Paul on UK television around 1979? A superb, engaging performer, that did the basics so brilliantly. His Close-up Cards Across in particular, stood out for me.


I too remember that! Paul Daniels' Show. His Cards Across was fantastic! I spent so long thinking about that and trying to reconstruct it (I was still a teenager). A few years later I heard Johnny had been booked for another Paul Daniels Show. I was living in London then and somehow managed to get into the audience. He did the Cards Across again, and I realised my reconstruction had been 'basically' right - but how brilliantly he did it! Such a lesson in misdirection. Somehow I got the chance to thank him afterwards (was I just a really obnoxious pushy kid?). That second Cards Across performance didn't make it onto the televised show.
He also had a wonderful line for a bar tender; 'The more you drink the better I get.'

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Re: Cups and Balls

Postby MagicbyAlfred » October 21st, 2022, 11:23 am

A display like El Mystico is describing is certainly useful in terms of setting up any number of ways for a ball to magically "appear" under the apparently "empty" cup. But I'm still a bit unclear as to the nature of his original question, as the only way I know to lift a cup and show nothing beneath is by drawing the pinky back to trap the ball against the side of the cup in the act of lifting the cup, which would seem to qualify as a move or sleight. (This pinky move can also be used as an added convincer before revealing the first large load, if desired).

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Re: Cups and Balls

Postby Dave Le Fevre » October 21st, 2022, 11:24 am

Apologies for any confusion, El Mystico. Our replies were being typed simultaneously. My reply was to Alfred's post.

The performer made a then-topical reference, pretending to levitate one of the mugs with his palm behind it, quite obviously with one finger through the handle, and he said something about Finn Jon. That made me laugh. Other than that, I have no memory of him.

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Re: Cups and Balls

Postby erdnasephile » October 21st, 2022, 12:22 pm

MagicbyAlfred wrote:...Somewhere in the dark recesses of my mind I have a memory of John Mendoza having a version of the Cups and Balls that is under a minute in length! A couple penetrations, maybe a transposition or two, and BAM, 3 large balls are revealed. I can't remember which video I saw it on, but it's on one of the volumes of the "My Best" series DVDs and was called the "Flash Cups and Balls." I don't know if it's been published in print...


Alfred: The routine was published in "The Book of John" and was created by Barry Nelson, a former student of Mr. Mendoza's (who also happens to be a very nice guy--met him at a convention once.)

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Re: Cups and Balls

Postby Philippe Billot » October 21st, 2022, 12:27 pm

El Mystico wrote:He's the situation. In the middle of a routine, you lift a cup and move it backwards to show there is nothing beneath it... but in reality there is a ball, but you don't lift the cup high enough for the ball to appear when you move the cup back. After that, you have an 'empty' cup which can be moved anywhere.


I remember a version in which all the balls are tied to a thread so you can raise the cups and the balls rest inside the cups.

Unfortunatly, I don't remember who did it or where I read it.

Otherwise, you can raise the cup and, in the same time, grip the ball with your little finger. I read this in a book published in 1935

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Re: Cups and Balls

Postby Philippe Billot » October 21st, 2022, 12:52 pm

See also Ian Baxter in Pabular, vol. 2, no 12, August 1976, page 298, My Cup Flipped Over

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Re: Cups and Balls

Postby Philippe Billot » October 21st, 2022, 12:58 pm

For the thread, see HMM, vol. 9, no 10, March 1952, page 907.

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Re: Cups and Balls

Postby MagicbyAlfred » October 21st, 2022, 1:09 pm

Erdnasephile Wrote: "Alfred: The [Flash Cups and Balls] routine was published in "The Book of John" and was created by Barry Nelson, a former student of Mr. Mendoza's (who also happens to be a very nice guy--met him at a convention once.)"

Thanks for that reference, Erdnasephile. I had remembered that the routine wasn't John Mendoza's original creation, and that on the "My Best," Vol. __ DVD, he credited someone, but I couldn't remember whom.

He also performed both the Vernon routine, as well as his own routine for which he used a set of combo cups, on his My Best videos, the latter being exceptionally strong. Here it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP-w80R-6cg&t=3s

*I would note that John's style with this (and all his routines) is a very direct, narrative one (i.e. descriptive patter), but it somehow worked well for him in view of his dry, straight forward, matter-of-fact persona, and it does add clarity to the effects. He was a master at making sure the spectators perceived and clearly understood the effect. A special magician who is missed.

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Re: Cups and Balls

Postby Edward Pungot » October 21st, 2022, 1:28 pm

I haven’t seen it but I do know Guy Hollingworth has some work on the c&b on his Masterclass with Vanishing Inc.. I also read some commentary that there is another publication by him in the future. If that is the case, it would be an interesting study.

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Re: Cups and Balls

Postby Tarotist » October 21st, 2022, 1:40 pm

Here is a show business version

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkkIEC8gkHM

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Re: Cups and Balls

Postby BarryAllen » October 21st, 2022, 1:59 pm

In the late 1930's, Davenports brought out Tom Waterman's 'Cups & Corks'.

Three chrome cups and three corks were provided. However, the corks were each fitted with an angular piece of metal; pushed into the base. The protruding metal piece was flush with the bottom of the cork; then bent at a 90 degree angle, producing a kind of tab. There was a small gap between the rear edge of the cork and the tab itself. Crikey - that was difficult to explain and I hope it makes some degree of sense.

In operation, if the side of the cup was therefore slotted into the gap; in other words the bottom/open rim of the cup was between the side of the cork and the right angled small tab; then all it needed was slight thumb pressure upon the tab, to be able to lift the cup and show nothing underneath. Release the thumb pressure and the cork had miraculously reappeared once the cup was lifted.

Now this wasn't a stacking Cups & Balls routine per se - the Cups could nest but had no collar. However, the routine itself made appearances, vanishes and transformations extremely simple to achieve.

For the finale, a large cork was produced - basically a shell that sat inside one of the cups throughout.

I haven't seen anything similar over the years; so the modus operandi used doesn't appear to have set the world alight.

Before hitting submit, I did a quick search to see if there were any photos. Guess what!

https://www.martinsmagic.com/allmagic/c ... mon-magic/
Last edited by BarryAllen on October 21st, 2022, 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cups and Balls

Postby Richard Kaufman » October 21st, 2022, 2:03 pm

Fascinating, but the gimmick in the photos does not look like what you've described.
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Re: Cups and Balls

Postby BarryAllen » October 21st, 2022, 2:24 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Fascinating, but the gimmick in the photos does not look like what you've described.

It's difficult to explain Richard.

Let me have another go.

Imagine starting with a small flat strip of metal - maybe just over an inch in length.

You would bend up both ends, by a quarter of an inch, at 90 degree angles.

You therefore have a piece of metal, this shape [

One end (pointed?) was pushed into the base of the cork (it was inserted towards the outer circumference of the cork, not dead centre).

The flat piece of metal would be flush with the table top.

The other end, at a right angle, would therefore be adjacent to the (rear) side of the cork - with the necessary gap required so that a cup, when required, could be placed not entirely over the cork but within the gap.

In other words, when the cork was in the in set/loaded position, the edge of the cup was actually sitting between the edge of the cork (internally) and the metal tab - external to the cup, ready for thumb pressure.

I hope that makes sense!

I had a set of these which my Father gave to me many, many years ago. For the life of me I don't know where they went. No way would I have sold them.

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Re: Cups and Balls

Postby BarryAllen » October 21st, 2022, 2:29 pm

Good grief........why didn't I look here first.

A picture paints a thousand words!

https://www.davenportcollection.co.uk/i ... id=1&pid=1

Yep - there were indeed 4 corks, not 3 as I originally said.

Also, the tabs in the picture look somewhat longer than those that I remember?

Actually, these wouldn't be too difficult to make today. However, I'm not sure if they would be very useful for close-up work.

I wonder if your colleagues at Tenyo could develop this idea? :roll:

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Re: Cups and Balls

Postby Jonathan Townsend » October 21st, 2022, 4:04 pm

Philippe Billot wrote:I remember a version in which all the balls are tied to a thread so you can raise the cups and the balls rest inside the cups.
Paper cups, thread, small sponge balls ... wishful thinking. ;)
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: Cups and Balls

Postby Jonathan Townsend » October 21st, 2022, 4:06 pm

Thinking coffee creamer containers ( apparently full and sealed ;) ) instead of corks.
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Re: Cups and Balls

Postby BarryAllen » October 21st, 2022, 4:38 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Thinking coffee creamer containers ( apparently full and sealed ;) ) instead of corks.

With disposable/poly cups?

Think you're onto something here mate! ;)

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Re: Cups and Balls

Postby Dave Le Fevre » October 21st, 2022, 4:40 pm

BarryAllen wrote:https://www.davenportcollection.co.uk/item/demon-cups-corks/#&gid=1&pid=1
That matches the mental image that your description had conjured up

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Re: Cups and Balls

Postby BarryAllen » October 21st, 2022, 7:06 pm

Dave Le Fevre wrote:
BarryAllen wrote:https://www.davenportcollection.co.uk/item/demon-cups-corks/#&gid=1&pid=1
That matches the mental image that your description had conjured up

Cheers Dave.

That was the hardest that I've worked all week mate! ;)

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Re: Cups and Balls

Postby MagicbyAlfred » October 22nd, 2022, 8:46 am

On the topic of the length of the routine. If the magician is able to keep the spectators engaged and entertained by the presentation all the way through, then a routine that exceeds even, say, four minutes cannot be fairly characterized as "too long." David Regal's version of the classic is the best I've ever seen (I'm not saying, categorically, that it's thee best, just, subjectively, the best that I personally have seen). It is a combination of the plot, the patter, the timing and misdirection, and above all, David's charisma and stellar creativity, that makes the 4 plus minutes of this routine breeze by with never a dull moment.

If you can watch his presentation without being thoroughly captivated and delighted right up to the phenomenal (triple) climax, I would be very, very surprised. When I first saw this video about a year or so ago, I was truly humbled. All I could think about was how lame my own routine was by comparison, and I have been working on trying to make it something far more creative, captivating, and unique ever since. Still a long way to go...

Here is David performing his masterpiece at the Castle over a decade ago. If you haven't seen this (and even if you have) believe me, you're in for a treat. (Note that the routine starts at the very beginning of the video, so you may need to bring it back to there if it's not cued up when you open it).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbnwgwnLe38&t=29s

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Re: Cups and Balls

Postby Philippe Billot » October 22nd, 2022, 9:19 am

I have found a move which SEEMS to match El Mystico's wishes.

See Pallbearers Review, Vol. 9, no 6, April 1974, page 723, The Karate Acquitment by Pete Biro.

I'll get it (one day), I'll get it...

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Re: Cups and Balls

Postby Dave Le Fevre » October 22nd, 2022, 9:22 am

MagicbyAlfred wrote:Here is David performing his masterpiece at the Castle over a decade ago
Thank you so much for posting that link. What a great routine, and his personality makes it wonderful.

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Re: Cups and Balls

Postby MagicbyAlfred » October 22nd, 2022, 9:58 am

Dave Le Fevre wrote:
MagicbyAlfred wrote:Here is David performing his masterpiece at the Castle over a decade ago
Thank you so much for posting that link. What a great routine, and his personality makes it wonderful.



You are quite welcome, Dave. Glad that you enjoyed it.

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Re: Cups and Balls

Postby Tarotist » October 22nd, 2022, 10:17 am

Philippe Billot wrote:
El Mystico wrote:He's the situation. In the middle of a routine, you lift a cup and move it backwards to show there is nothing beneath it... but in reality there is a ball, but you don't lift the cup high enough for the ball to appear when you move the cup back. After that, you have an 'empty' cup which can be moved anywhere.


I remember a version in which all the balls are tied to a thread so you can raise the cups and the balls rest inside the cups.

Unfortunatly, I don't remember who did it or where I read it.

Otherwise, you can raise the cup and, in the same time, grip the ball with your little finger. I read this in a book published in 1935


I have a vague memory of reading this in a Bruce Elliott book. I could well be imagining things but I keep getting psychic vibes of Franklin V Taylor. Or something like that anyway. I may have this all wrong so I will check it out if I get time.

My vibe has just gotten stronger so I am adding to this post as an edit. I bet it was in Classic Secrets of Magic. I will check it out.

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Re: Cups and Balls

Postby Philippe Billot » October 22nd, 2022, 10:25 am

Your memory is good, Tarotist.

Taylor's Cups and Balls is in The Phoenix no. 75, January 1, 1945, page 304. It's a method quasi automatic with thread

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Re: Cups and Balls

Postby BarryAllen » October 22nd, 2022, 1:41 pm

Tarotist wrote:My vibe has just gotten stronger so I am adding to this post as an edit. I bet it was in Classic Secrets of Magic. I will check it out.

It is indeed within that book Mark - pages 187-192 in my Faber version.

What a fantastic book it remains - albeit the chapter with the corn-cob pipes never floated my boat. Apart from, as a kid, not having the first idea what a corn-cob pipe was (come to think of it, I can't say that I'm even certain now), the other requirements, namely Hydrochloric Acid and Ammonia, sounded just a tad dangerous! Add into the mix the razor blades from mouth and on hindsight, the book would probably have to carry a government health warning these days.

My only gripe is that sometimes the diagrams are pages away from the relevant text. Superb book though - with just so many classic principles and routines contained within.

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Re: Cups and Balls

Postby MagicbyAlfred » October 22nd, 2022, 2:09 pm

BarryAllen wrote: What a fantastic book [Classic Secrets of Magic] remains - albeit the chapter with the corn-cob pipes never floated my boat. Apart from, as a kid, not having the first idea what a corn-cob pipe was (come to think of it, I can't say that I'm even certain now)...


It is a wonderful book, with, for the most part, great material, and very clearly written.

As for the corn-cob pipe, it's what Frosty the Snowman (of Christmas Carol fame) reputedly had, along with "a button nose and two eyes made out of coal." And as the chorus goes, "There must have been some magic in that old silk hat they found, for when they placed it on his head, he began to dance around."

(Although I'm not certain whether it was the old silk hat, or whatever the contents of that corn-cob pipe may have been, that made him dance around).

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Re: Cups and Balls

Postby Tarotist » October 22nd, 2022, 2:29 pm

I am actually amazed at the amount of stuff I do all the time from Classic Secrets of Magic. Oddly enough I never thought it was a terribly well written book but I somehow figured out the instructions anyway. I do the snap change in the first chapter regularly when I work the svengali deck. It is used as an out when I instruct the spectator to try the trick out for himself but he messes it up. I also used to do the Card on Ceiling from the book quite regularly when I was young and enthusiastic Nowadays I don't feel the flamboyant urge to throw decks on ceilings any more.

I also base my egg bag routine on what is in the book. Plus the Billiard Ball routine in there. I actually performed the Billiard Ball routine in there at the famous Victoria Palace theatre in London which must hold about a thousand seats. Naturally nobody could see the balls so I am quite sure they had no idea what the hell I was doing. But here is the bizarre part. I was not doing it to patter but neither was I doing it to music. I was doing to a background of a qroup singing Israeli folk songs! Don't ask....................

I do remember there was a rather more accomplished and experienced magician on the bill. His name was David Berglas. Oh, and my cousin was on the bill even though he didn't seem to know he was my cousin. I am referring to David Kossoff who was a household name in the UK at the time. His son was famous in the music business. Paul Kossoff. I suppose he would be my second cousin. He was a kid then and I remember showing him the Dotty Spots paddle trick.

But back to the book. I do the Dr Sack Dice routine in there. I used to do the paddle move with a table knife described therein until I got fed up sticking the little bits of paper on the knife. However, I still do the business card paddle move described therein. It never got much of a reaction until I altered the presentation so it didn't look like a trick. I would give someone my business card and mumble in a slightly irritated manner, "I have no idea why they printed it on both sides", doing the move and handing them the card. The acting has to be good here but if you do it in an offhand slightly irritated manner they will actually believe your printer messed up. There is a sort of delayed action reaction when they look at the other side and see you were being mischevious with them. It does get a good laugh.

I have also lately been messing about with the Miser's Dream routine in there using a glass.

Ironically one of the few things I don't do from the book is the cups and balls!

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Re: Cups and Balls

Postby Philippe Billot » October 22nd, 2022, 3:28 pm

And certainly not the one El Mystico want to find!

The four books by Bruce Elliott:
Magic as a Hobby (1948)
Classic Secrets of Magic (1953)
The Best in Magic (1956)
Professional Magic Made Easy (1959)

are compilation from his magazine The Phoenix and only one trick from The New Phoenix (Clipped by Bill Bowman)

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Re: Cups and Balls

Postby Tarotist » October 22nd, 2022, 8:10 pm

Magic as a Hobby was the book that started me off in magic. Bloody awful book for a beginner. I couldn't do a single trick in the book and I recently checked it again for the sake of nostaligia. I STILL can't do any of them!

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Re: Cups and Balls

Postby Ian Kendall » October 23rd, 2022, 8:19 am

The length of a cups routine has been the subject of debate for decades, and probably will be for decades to come. Venue has a lot to do with it.

Jason England once described the cups as 'bullsh1t, bullsh1t, bullsh1t, lemons', and it's hard to disagree with that, but there are mitigating factors at play. For those of us who developed a routine for the streets, the objective fact is that a swift two minute routine will get you precisely no money. I've seen someone do a flawless Vernon routine on the street and end up with an empty hat. On the other hand, I know performers who will do a thirty minute routine every day and get three figure hats. My own fifteen minute version is positively short in comparison.

These routines can be taken indoors with a bit of thought, but like most here, I've never considered the cups to be a close up routine; the chop cup is much better suited to strolling or table hopping. Formal close up shows, however, will always have the cups for me, as well as private house shows, and parlour. I have done the cups on a theatre stage in the past, but retired it in that environment. Amusingly, all the performers I know who do the cups on large theatres (say 1000+ seats) are former street performers.

Another thing to consider is that it's possible to have different routines for different venues. My street routine is different from the one I did at the Castle rooms, and is different again from formal shows or large stages. It's important to adapt to the environment with everything, including the cups.

A final point about length of the routine and modern day attention spans; on the streets, where the longest routines live, if you are not good, or entertaining, your audience will simply walk. It's the clearest indicator of how good you are, and whether you are 'fooling yourself'. If you still have your edge at the end of the routine, and you have a full hat, then it's pretty obvious that people decrying the efficacy of long routines or large loads are wrong.

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Re: Cups and Balls

Postby MagicbyAlfred » October 23rd, 2022, 10:22 am

I have never been a street performer, which is a bit of a shame actually, as I'm sure I would be a better overall performer if I'd had that experience "in the trenches." In the venues I've played over the years, including many bars/restaurants, private house parties, and posh special events, I haven't had to be too concerned about drawing and holding a crowd.

But Ian's post concerning how one must have a relatively lengthy cups and balls routine on the street if one wants to get the money, got me thinking. (And that's not easy to do!) Perhaps one practical reason that a short, wham, bam, thank you M'am routine will leave an empty or almost empty hat or jar is that with something like a 3 to 5 minute routine, there is such a short of a window of time (and, thus, of opportunity, for the performer). The only potential tippers for the short routine are literally those present during that short period. Whereas, with say, a 30 minute (or even in Ian's case, 15 minute) routine, there would generally be exposure to substantially more passers by/onlookers. So even if someone came by at the 5 minute or 10 minute mark, they would still see quite a bit of the routine (and, more than likely the large loads climax), and they would have the opportunity to get to know the performer, as it were. In the case of a lengthy routine, there would be people present for at least some of the routine who would otherwise have missed it in its entirety if it were short.

This is just my speculation, however, and I will leave it to those really in the know, who can speak from experience.

Ian Kendall
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Re: Cups and Balls

Postby Ian Kendall » October 23rd, 2022, 10:41 am

There's a nugget in what you say, but it's a long way short of the mark.

I've mentioned this before, but the best piece of advice I ever got about working on the street was 'Do you want to be a magician who entertains, or an entertainer who does magic? Because only one of them will make any money'.

Yes, a longer routine means that more people are likely to stop and see the routine, but for most, the edge is built before you start on the main chunk of your show. The bottom line is that people pay for entertainment; if they feel that they have been entertained, they will pay more. So, if someone has watched two minutes of a cups routine, they will feel that they have seen two minutes of entertainment, and pay accordingly. If someone has watched thirty or forty minutes of a show, they feel that they have received more value for their money, and will pay more.

It's a stonkingly complex question, with a very, very long answer that will have to wait for another day, but the big lesson is that routines do not have to be short, as was suggested at the start of the thread.

Also, for clarification, my cups routine is 15 minutes on the street, but it's part of a longer, 30 minute show.

MagicbyAlfred
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Re: Cups and Balls

Postby MagicbyAlfred » October 23rd, 2022, 10:55 am

Thanks for sharing your knowledge and for the clarifications. I'm totally on board with the "entertainment" concept. Even for a non-street performer desirous of getting private gigs and working regularly, it is absolutely essential and what "gets the money." On that I can speak from experience.

Tarotist
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Re: Cups and Balls

Postby Tarotist » October 23rd, 2022, 1:57 pm

The street is a special situation and different rules apply. As for the cups and balls on stage I don't think that is a good idea either. It is really a trick for parlour entertainment or close up situations. It can certainly be done at trade shows for example. However, in these situations you don't want long routines unless you happen to be a superb entertainer. However superb entertainers in magic are as rare as good magicians on the Magic Cafe.

One thing that I have noticed about veteran street performers is that they often fail when they come indoors to perform. Not in every case of course but more often than not. They are too loud, aggressive and tend to draw out their material the same way they have to do on the street. They don't fit the style to the venue because they are so used to the street. I can always tell if a performer I see on stage has his roots on the street. It isn't always a good thing. Incidentally, I can also tell if a stage performer has had acting training too. That isn't necessarily a good thing either. They tend to be overloud and artificial.

Not that I have a cynical nature of course..............

MagicbyAlfred
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Re: Cups and Balls

Postby MagicbyAlfred » October 24th, 2022, 11:15 am

Tarotist wrote:The street is a special situation and different rules apply. As for the cups and balls on stage I don't think that is a good idea either. It is really a trick for parlour entertainment or close up situations...One thing that I have noticed about veteran street performers is that they often fail when they come indoors to perform. Not in every case of course but more often than not. They are too loud, aggressive and tend to draw out their material the same way they have to do on the street. They don't fit the style to the venue because they are so used to the street...


Yes, I agree. One size (of magical style) does not fit all. It's the same in comparing stage magic with close-up. The flourishy and grandiose gestures and manner of speech used by many performers on the stage would look quite strange and out of place for intimate strolling or table-to-table performances. We are not only creatures of habit, but of habitat, depending on whether we are normally street, or stage, or close-up performers. Although, as long as one is (or becomes) aware of what is appropriate in each venue, there is no reason why a performer who is very used to one type of venue should not be able to adapt to others eventually -- but it would surely take some unlearning of that which has become ingrained through repetition. When I finally got tired of turning down opportunities to do stand-up shows, and got over my fear of doing so, I found it wasn't that hard to transition from doing primarily strolling/close-up. Before long, shows of up to around 50 people became my favorite performance venues. Adapting to stage or the street, however, would be a whole n'other ball game.

In specific regard to the performance of the cups and balls, visibility is obviously a very important consideration. Without one of those big screens, I can't imagine how audience members at a stage show (or even many of them at some parlor shows, depending on the number of people and the seating) are going to be able to see what's happening.

Tarotist
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Re: Cups and Balls

Postby Tarotist » October 24th, 2022, 12:15 pm

Television is a special case too. I sometimes see performers who are used to stage work forget that television is an intimate medium and extravagant gestures and animated behavior don't fit the TV screen very well unless of course the performer is being televised in a theatre with a large live audience. On TV you have to keep in mind you are often performing for two or three people in a living room so there is no need to yell and get over excited as I have seen some performers do.

As for performing cups and balls on stage Paul Daniels seemed to manage it quite well with the chop cup. However, this is a rare exception. I posted a link to it earlier on this thread but I don't think anyone noticed it.


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