Cups and Balls

[MagicbyAlfred]

...As for performing cups and balls on stage Paul Daniels seemed to manage it quite well with the chop cup. However, this is a rare exception. I posted a link to it earlier on this thread but I don't think anyone noticed it.

i did watch it, and I had also seen it in the past. It has long been one of my favorite chop cup routines. And he did seem to manage it quite well, although the ball was quite large and there was only one ball and one cup to follow. And while it is, of course, very easy to see and follow on video/TV, I'm not certain how visible it was to all the audience members in attendance.

[Dave Le Fevre]

I remember Paul Daniels performing at a theatre near me about twenty years ago. His chop cup routine was excellent.

[Tarotist]

I expect Paul knew when to include it his show and when not. In smaller venues no trouble and in larger venues he would either have left it out or as I suspect as a hardened pro know quite a lot about lighting and so on. I did see him perform in a very large theatre in Dublin but I can't remember whether he performed the chop cup or not. I do remember he did a matinee and there were HUNDREDS of kids in the audience. From my conversation with him afterwards I think he was taken by surprise that there were so many there. Of course he did the paper balls over the head in the same way he had been doing all week, but not taking the kids into account. All hell broke loose with hundreds of kids yelling and screaming "YOU THREW IT!" They went on and on and on. I thought to myself "how the hell is he going to get out of this?" BUT HE DID! I was probably just as impressed with that as I was with the entire show!

I will tell you later how he got out of it. For the moment I will refrain from doing so . I think it might be a good exercise for everyone to contemplate what THEY would do in a similar situation!

As for the visibility aspect under discussion, when I was younger I used to do a 20 minute stage act consisting purely of card tricks --nothing else. I was able to work it in top London night clubs, working mens clubs in Northern England and US army bases in Germany. People could follow the effects of the tricks even if they couldn't see the cards because of the things I was saying. But here is a point which is relevant to the visibility discussion of Paul Daniels performing the chop cup in a theatre. I noticed a very odd thing. When I did the card act in a theatre situation(as I did on a tiny few occasions) I noticed that for some strange reason people could see the cards far better than they could in smaller venues, perhaps because the lighting was better. I am no expert on lighting but I suspect that has a lot to do with visibility of small props.

[MagicbyAlfred]

Interesting. Paul Daniels was the consummate pro, as seasoned as they come. Although I don't know how experienced he was when Mark saw him in Dublin, I was surprised to read that he went ahead with the paper balls when there were so many kids in the audience. Whilst adults will typically go along with the gag, children are boisterous and notoriously lacking in filters and subtlety, so it comes as no surprise that they brazenly called him out when the method was in plain view. In any event, I suspect that's the last time he did that trick when there was an appreciable number of children present. It is undoubtedly a very clever piece, and practically guaranteed to generate hilarity, but I've never chosen to perform it, as it's not my style. Entertaining, yes, but at the expense of one poor soul who's likely to believe that everybody's in on the joke but him or her, and of course that's exactly the case, and making someone the fool, or feel like one, is the last thing I would want to do or even remotely risk doing.

[Tarotist]

Oh, he was VERY experienced when I saw him in Dublin! A BIG star in fact! A household name in both Ireland and the UK. I am sure he had done kid shows in his time and in fact he had a lovely ring routine with a child on stage sitting on a stool. However, his main work was adult shows and he had been working for adults for days on end in Dublin and probably months on end preceding his visit to Ireland since he had been touring his show at the time. There is a tendency to just carry on day after day doing what you are normally doing. He probably had a vague idea there would be kids at a matinee show but didn't expect so many! When I met him backstage after the show I never mentioned the incident but he brought it up first. He seemed embarrased by it and told me he didn't expect so many kids. He didn't realise I was awestruck at how he got out of the situation and probably thought I might be critical of the fiasco. I shall now reveal what he did.

They were yelling and screaming for about a minute and it was absolute bedlam. Then suddenly he brightened and replied to the "You threw it" yelling by responding "Oh, no I didn't". I had now better explain to Americans that this is a British pantomime expression. The Irish know about it too. It is traditional in that part of the world that if someone on stage says, "OH, NO I DIDN'T" the kids will automatically yell back, "OH YES, YOU DID!" Virtually all British kid show entertainers use this technique to get the kids reacting. It doesn't work in North America in the same way because there is no pantomime tradition over here. However, I personally have a way to trigger off that reaction even over here in Canada which I won't go into. However, it really is a British thing and the Irish know about it too. I have even seen it done at the Blackpool Tower Circus by the famous clown Charlie Cairoli.

Now normally the "Oh, yes you did" and the "Oh no you didn't is repeated several times. However, Paul did it just once. The kids responded en masse in the traditional way, "OH, YES YOU DID!" whereupon Paul just shrugged his shoulders saying, "Oh, all right then" so the kids had their victory and miraculously they all went as quiet as a mouse! I thought it was masterly!

Interestingly enough Alfred will be pleased to know that Billy McComb shared his misgivings concerning the paper ball trick and came up with a version in his last book to take care of that issue.

[BarryAllen]

When I saw Paul perform last time at the Bedworth Civic Hall (763 seats) in Oct 2013 - sadly, he didn't perform the Chop Cup. I don't think it was a visibility issue as I remember him doing Cards Across. As Mark alludes to, maybe the patter, upon a large stage, helped to deliver this trick effectively.

If I had to be critical, it was his opener with a Demon Wonder Box. It seemed to go on for an eternity; and being brutally honest, the accompanying storyline patter would have sent a glass eye to sleep. Moreover, removing silks with a pair of tweezers (possibly due to the stage lightning?) appeared to give the game away just a bit!

That opener aside (which got a very mediocre audience response from memory) was the low point - as it's fair to say thereafter, I saw Paul at his finest that night - he was on form.

The sign of a Pro? He had a guy get up to help who, let's say was a tad on the heavy side and wasn't allergic to pie and chips. Paul asked his name and then said "where are you from Ron"? The guy replied "Coventry". Paul looked at him, patted his stomach and casually said "I thought you'd say Bulkington".

Just to explain - Bulkington is the adjacent town to Bedwoth - where the theatre was located. Now Paul wasn't a local to this area obviously - but had no doubt driven through Bulkington on his way into Bedworth and thought to himself "there's a gag there".

That's how a true Pro's mind prepares and works.

[Gareth]

How's this for outside the box?

In the realm of non-chop, cup and ball effects (yes for sake of argument I'm dropping the esses), without sleight of hand, I think of Stewart James' The Gofar Ball The Essential Stewart James (2007) Slaight, A. p.131

Unorthodox yes but a rather magnificent transposition involving a cup (transparent too!) and a ball, 2 tubes and no sleight of hand. Fans include Haxton, Warlock, Avis and Bean.

Can't find any video...anyone seen it performed?

Might get the craft kit out this weekend and video

Gareth

PS I wonder also whether the principle involved could be transferred to some part of a traditional cups and balls routine

PPS For what it's worth my favourite Cups and Balls is Skinner's performance for Tony Curtis and Jack Lemmon and Joe Flynn on the tonight Show with Curtis as guest host. Short (< 3 minutes), hard hitting and exquisitely magical. It pops up now and again on youtube.
Can be seen here, about half way down the article.

https://www.magicana.com/news/blog/take ... el-skinner

[MagicbyAlfred]

Oh, he was VERY experienced when I saw him in Dublin! A BIG star in fact! A household name in both Ireland and the UK. I am sure he had done kid shows in his time and in fact he had a lovely ring routine with a child on stage sitting on a stool. However, his main work was adult shows and he had been working for adults for days on end in Dublin and probably months on end preceding his visit to Ireland since he had been touring his show at the time. There is a tendency to just carry on day after day doing what you are normally doing. He probably had a vague idea there would be kids at a matinee show but didn't expect so many! When I met him backstage after the show I never mentioned the incident but he brought it up first. He seemed embarrased by it and told me he didn't expect so many kids. He didn't realise I was awestruck at how he got out of the situation and probably thought I might be critical of the fiasco. I shall now reveal what he did.

They were yelling and screaming for about a minute and it was absolute bedlam. Then suddenly he brightened and replied to the "You threw it" yelling by responding "Oh, no I didn't". I had now better explain to Americans that this is a British pantomime expression. The Irish know about it too. It is traditional in that part of the world that if someone on stage says, "OH, NO I DIDN'T" the kids will automatically yell back, "OH YES, YOU DID!" Virtually all British kid show entertainers use this technique to get the kids reacting. It doesn't work in North America in the same way because there is no pantomime tradition over here. However, I personally have a way to trigger off that reaction even over here in Canada which I won't go into. However, it really is a British thing and the Irish know about it too. I have even seen it done at the Blackpool Tower Circus by the famous clown Charlie Cairoli.

Now normally the "Oh, yes you did" and the "Oh no you didn't is repeated several times. However, Paul did it just once. The kids responded en masse in the traditional way, "OH, YES YOU DID!" whereupon Paul just shrugged his shoulders saying, "Oh, all right then" so the kids had their victory and miraculously they all went as quiet as a mouse! I thought it was masterly!

Interestingly enough Alfred will be pleased to know that Billy McComb shared his misgivings concerning the paper ball trick and came up with a version in his last book to take care of that issue.

Great story! Thinking quickly on one's feet and being able to improvise on the spur of the moment is an exceedingly valuable asset for a magical entertainer.

In regard to Mark's comment that Billy McComb came up with a version of the paper balls to take care of the (making a fool of the spectator) issue in the paper balls over the head:

Alfred: OH, NO HE DIDN'T!!!

Mark: OH, YES HE DID!!!

Alfred: Oh, all right then.

Seriously, I appreciate the reference, I am indeed pleased. Now I must track it down...

[Tarotist]

I have seen Paul work live a few times yet never once with the Demon Wonder Box. It sounds like it was not a regular program item of his and he was just trying it out in front of a live audience. As for Billy McCombs balls over the head version it is on page 123 of his "McCombical" book. He says that the trick in it's known form "has a sort of yahoo.....I'm cleverer than you aspect which I heartily abhor"

[MagicbyAlfred]

I think Billy put that quite well. Thanks for pinpointing where Billy's routine can be found. I'll place the book on my wish list and drop subtle hints around the house such as, "That magic book called McCombical, is all the rage. They say it would be the ideal Christmas gift for a magician."

[Richard Kaufman]

I will play Devil's advocate: I thought Paul Daniels's Chop Cup routine was terrible. Too fast. Too confusing. Too little magic.

[Joe Lyons]

I will play Devil's advocate: I thought Paul Daniels's Chop Cup routine was terrible. Too fast. Too confusing. Too little magic.

I agree. Confusion isn't magic. Also, I hate magic that even has the appearance of possibly challenging or belittling an audience member.

Trouble is, Paul Daniels was an entertaining genius. His audiences always really enjoyed his Chop Cup.

[MagicbyAlfred]

I will play Devil's advocate: I thought Paul Daniels's Chop Cup routine was terrible. Too fast. Too confusing. Too little magic.

I agree. Confusion isn't magic. Also, I hate magic that even has the appearance of possibly challenging or belittling an audience member.

Trouble is, Paul Daniels was an entertaining genius. His audiences always really enjoyed his Chop Cup.

I went back and checked it out again after reading Richard's and Joe's comments, and now I'm ready to sell my soul to the Devil['s advocate]. I have revised my humble opinion of the routine somewhat, and yes, there is a sequence that's super fast and confusing, and it comes off kind of silly and mildly irritating too. In fairness, there were parts that I liked, such as some the gags and lines, and the opening and closing sequences. I actually found the slow motion sequence quite entertaining, as did the audience, but it would have been just as effective if it had followed magic at normal speed, rather than the speed of light. And, there was some belittlement, which I share Joe's feelings about. Also, this may sound picayune, but for the size of the cup, it seems like the final loads could have, and should have, been bigger pieces of fruit.

All of this said, I'm not so sure how well I'd fare if someone decided to pick my chop cup routine apart. Actually, being my own toughest critic, I am always going back to see how I can elevate a routine -- make it more engaging, more magical, more entertaining. One thing that I love about the cups and balls and the chop cup, though, is that they offer almost unlimited opportunity for creativity, both magic and presentation-wise.

[Tarotist]

The super fast sequence is supposed to be confusing. It is a gag and that is the whole point. Paul was obviously of the school of thought that the entertainment was more important than the magic. As for the "belittling" that was always his style. His TV predecessor David Nixon was the exact opposite --charm and politeness personified.

Paul's more aggressive style was probably born in the tough working men's clubs of Northern England where you had to be as tough as leather to survive. I worked them but didn't really survive because I was too NON aggressive! When Paul arrived on TV he muted that style to a degree but there were still traces of it there. As a result some laymen in the UK liked him and some didn't! I still remember the TV Times (British version of the TV guide) did a survey of the British public to see who they thought was the best 10 television personalities and who were the 10 worst. Paul was on both lists! To be fair to him he was well aware that not everyone liked his abrasive manner and personality.

At one point I was in a unique position to do some market research on the matter of who liked him and who didn't, He had marketed a series of magic tricks to be sold to the public put out by a firm called Dubreq. I did a deal with Dubreq to sell those tricks myself at the pitch venues I worked. Naturally, doing so resulted in me hearing lots of comments about Paul on a daily basis from members of the public. This was the rough result. Kids loved him, women detested him and men were 50/50 in their opinions.

However, I will tell you where Paul connected the strongest. Not on television but performing LIVE! I have seen very few performers to compare with him performing before a live audience.

[Ian Kendall]

This is another example of a routine being developed in a certain venue. As Mark said, the majority of Daniels' working repertoire was forged in the working men's clubs, which were more like bear pits. Being swift was a requirement (the antithesis of working the streets). Yes, there's a rapid sequence in the middle act, but the rest of the routine is not that far removed from most others.

As an aside, venue does play a strong part on performers' personas. I met Jon Van Der Put long before he was Piff, and remember the early days of the dragon. I saw him again in a late night cabaret a couple of years ago, and the effect of working in Vegas for a few years was very apparent; he was much more aggressive, and verbally insulting to everyone which whom he interacted. It was such a stark difference to his earlier version of the character, and this was in a very placid, positive room.

[MagicbyAlfred]

Really enjoying this discussion. I have never been to, much less performed in, the working men's clubs ("bear pits") that Mark and Ian have described, and where Mark has recounted performing years ago. But I would think that a magician performing in such venues, and who engaged in the kind of put-down or battle-of-wits style exhibited by Paul Daniels in his chop cup performance, would be risking a black eye (the hand, of course, being quicker). Even rather clever bits like asking where the ball is and the spectator says "on top of the cup," and then Paul smugly correcting him by saying "No, it's on the bottom of the cup -- the cup is upside down," would not strike me as very prudent to say in those tough kind of venues. He did this twice in the routine I watched. Or, the sequence, when he asked, "If it's in my pocket, it can't be under the cup [lifting cup to show nothing underneath], RIGHT?" Spectator: "RIGHT." Daniels: WRONG. [showing ball underneath] Again, a kind of smarty-pants, wise-guy, "gotcha" approach.

So, I guess I'm surprised that his later persona was shaped by his experiences in the bear pits, since I would expect the customers/spectators to have exercised, shall we say, some behavior modification on any performer trying to outwit them in such a fashion, or certainly if the performer had a belittling or insulting style.

[Joe Lyons]

So, I guess I'm surprised that his later persona was shaped by his experiences in the bear pits, since I would expect the customers/spectators to have exercised, shall we say, some behavior modification on any performer trying to outwit them in such a fashion, or certainly if the performer had a belittling or insulting style.

No doubt adapting a more aggressive stance is what saved him.

If he had appeared meek in front of that crowd they would have chewed him up and spit him out.

[MagicbyAlfred]

So, I guess I'm surprised that his later persona was shaped by his experiences in the bear pits, since I would expect the customers/spectators to have exercised, shall we say, some behavior modification on any performer trying to outwit them in such a fashion, or certainly if the performer had a belittling or insulting style.

No doubt adapting a more aggressive stance is what saved him.

If he had appeared meek in front of that crowd they would have chewed him up and spit him out.

That's a good point. I hadn't considered it from that angle.

[AJM]

The Glasgow Empire was famed as being the venue which struck fear into the hearts of variety ‘turns’ from south of the border.

As the old saying goes from its illustrious past ‘if the audience liked you they let you live.’

Andrew

[Leo Garet]

And as Ken Dodd said, following Sigmund Freud's comments on humour---what it is and what it isn't.

"The trouble with Freud is that he never played the Glasgow Empire on a Saturday night after Rangers and Celtic had both lost".

[erdnasephile]

I really like the Chop Cup, but to me, the problem is that 99% of routines you see are basically Don Alan's routine (often using his exact patter lines).

Of course, there are notable exceptions--David Regal's routine being one of them. Ron Wilson's is another.

[MagicbyAlfred]

Here's a rather amusing story from the glory days (albeit not so amusing for the performer). Apparently, it was not just magicians who got eaten alive in the Roman -- I mean Glascow -- Empire:

The veteran comic impressionist VICTOR SEAFORTH recalls every performers nightmare, playing 'the comics' graveyard' for a week:

After fifty seven years in the business as a comic impressionist I have many memories to look back on. I am often asked if there is one particular one that stand out and I always reply "Yes, my fourth visit to the Glasgow Empire." I remember the previous three with pleasure when the top of the bills, respectively, were VIC OLIVER, LESTER FERGUSON and TONY DALLI. Then the fourth, the headliner was CHARLIE GRACE, the American Rock and Roll singer who had just topped the bill at the Hippodrome in London's Leicester Square over DOROTHY SQUIRES. Dot wasn't happy about that at all and there was a lot of publicity - so much so that when my agent, Joe Collins, told me that I was to appear with Gracie at Glasgow Empire I was really looking forward to it.
What a rude awakening I had! On the opening night the audience was more suited to a cup final than a theatre. It was very distressing and the artistes found the noise quite frightening. All we could hear was "Bring on Charlie Grace! Where's Charlie Grace?" plus plenty of rude noises. It was so bad that the first half came down 13 minutes early. The Manager came round and apologised but said he couldn't do anything about it.

I felt physically sick knowing I had to go on in the second half and when it was time for my entrance all I could hear was "Bring on Charlie Gracie! " and the rude noises were even louder.

I cut out my gags and just worked on my singing numbers but I broke into a cold sweat knowing that I had to finish on my impression of Charles Laughton as Quasimodo, the Hunchback of Notre Dame. I tried to announce what my final impression was going to be but that was pointless as all I could hear was the endless "Bring on Charlie Gracie! ". I proceeded to get myself into the character, the lights went down to green spots, and there I was all twisted up going into the dialogue and all I could hear was "Bugger off. Bring on Charlie Gracie!". The rude noises got louder still and as I carried on towards the end of my study a really loud Scottish voice shouted out "Away hame you humpy backed old bastard! " There was a loud burst of laughter and I was lost how to make my exit so, still in my study as the Hunchback, I worked my way up to the mike as close as I could and as I looked up into the Circle I said, in my loudest voice, "Don't you recognise your father?" and with that I got myself off.

One thing is for sure - it was the longest week of my life and every performance was a nightmare.

*By kind permission of Victor Seaforth, this article first appeared in Call Boy the journal of the
British Music Hall Society.

See https://glasgow-empire.webs.com/stories ... empire.htm
(under the "Stories from the Empire" Tab)

[AJM]

And as Ken Dodd said, following Sigmund Freud's comments on humour---what it is and what it isn't.

"The trouble with Freud is that he never played the Glasgow Empire on a Saturday night after Rangers and Celtic had both lost".

Ha ha - I'd forgotten about Doddy.

"Freud said that the essence of the comic was the conservation of psychic energy. But then again Freud never played second house Friday night at the Glasgow Empire."

[Joe Lyons]

Which brings to mind another Sigmund and another Empire.

The Great Lafayette wasn't treated very well in the Edinburgh Empire.

[Tarotist]

It should be mentioned that British people have a different culture than America does. It is a ruder and more sarcastic culture. British people tend to be blunt although humorous. Things that Americans and especially Canadians would find extremely rude are considered the norm in the UK. You only have to watch British Parliamentary proceedings to get the gist of it. Therefore Paul's aggressiveness in the clubs would not have annoyed anyone sufficiently to become physical with him and in fact the audience would have respected him for it.

When I came over to Canada I couldn't believe how easy the audiences over here were compared to rude British audiences. However, I will say one thing in favour of the Northern England working men's club audiences. They were very fair. They allowed you one minute to impress them. They would be relatively quiet for that one minute. If you impressed them during that minute everything would be great. However, if after that minute they had decided you were mediocre the horrible buzz of conversation would start around the room while they ignored you completely or thankfully heckled you. I say "thankfully" because the buzz around the room of people ignoring you was far worse. With a heckler someone was at least paying attention to you. And of course you can always respond back to a heckler. Not that it always works of course. I remember responding to one heckler, "Well, at least I've got the last laugh---you had to pay to see me here". Alas the response was "No mate! You haven't been paid yet and you are not going to be after that load of old rubbish!" Well, I suppose you can't please everybody...............

Incidentally I happen to know what Paul Daniels advice on hecklers was. I heard him at a convention giving it out freely. He had a lot of magicians around him and he was spouting away. I was amused to see Ali Bongo at the back of the crowd looking irritated and shaking his head saying in a low voice, "Why is he giving this valuable information away to these people?" Paul was always ready to give his opinions and advice to magicians and I quite respected him for that. Anyway, I wrote up what he said in my Wit and Wisdom book. If I can find it I will reproduce it here.

[Tarotist]

I have found the relevant extract. Here it is:
..........................................................................................................................................................................................................

I was young and inexperienced and couldn't handle the hecklers. I was trying to be too nice and
wasn't aggressive enough. Nowadays I would have been a lot more assertive with them.

I do remember Paul
Daniels giving advice on this matter years ago. He worked some pretty rough
places hmself. I am not saying the approach he advocated is for the street. Busking venues are
nowhere near as bad as those awful UK clubs which thankfully for the most part have now died out.
And culture in the UK is a bit different. Rougher and more aggressive. This is why you will find that UK
buskers can sometimes have quite a hard edge to them.

Daniels said words to the effect " The books say that you should not answer the hecklers back. They
say that you should let them have a little go at you and you ignore them. Then they have a bigger go
and you answer them back a little. It is only when they get too far that you really use the big guns
with heckler stoppers.

Well the books are wrong. If you show weakness they will descend on you like a pack of wolves. At the
first sign of heckling put them down straight away. They have to know from the very beginning that
you are in charge"

This is what I should have done when I worked to those awful drunks years ago.

Paul Daniels has a very funny though nasty line to use on hecklers when he is doing the Chop Cup.
He says that often some fool will shout out "you have two balls" Daniels stares right back at them and
says "Well, how many do you have, SUPERMAN?" I have put the word "superman" in block capitals
since it is really emphasized in the delivery.

As I have emphasised on the Magic Cafe I am a very proper person and do not approve of this sort
of vulgar retort. However for those of you who are not able to come up to my high standards I rather
suspect you may find this line useful if you do the chop cup and come up against hecklers.

[MagicbyAlfred]

Fascinating. I suspect those of us in the U.S. and Canada might have quite a different demeanor had we lived and performed in the UK. Either that, or given it up completely. I had forgotten what a session of Parliament was like, especially the special ones that feature a Q & A of the Prime Minister by members of the opposing party. Incredibly rude, raucous, confrontational -- and LOUD! I was shocked the first time I saw one of those sessions on CSPAN years ago. I would imagine that most of the heckling one might encounter from time to time when performing magic in the U.S. and Canada would be exceedingly tame compared to what the British Prime Ministers are subjected to. (Not to mention magicians like Mark, who dared step foot into the working men's clubs of the North have had to endure). Maybe this explains why Liz Truss resigned after only 6 short weeks as the British PM (and why Mark moved to Canada).

[Ian Kendall]

It's always fun seeing the American comedians arrive in Edinburgh each August. Show audiences are generally well behaved, but there are still some late night cabaret shows that are less so.

Eric Douglas was a prime example. Much has been written about his short time in the UK, including the best heckle of all time, but he did >not< have a good time up here...

[Tarotist]

Actually the Northern clubs were like performing in paradise compared to the London night clubs I worked. You would be performing at 1am in the morning to an audience where EVERYONE would be drunk! You did not get the one minute to prove yourself like you did up north. You were doomed before you even you went on! The audience were utterly horrific!

As for the British parliament whenever I feel that I need amusement I always watch the proceedings as they always make me laugh more than any comedian possibly can.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNuN-FRKcCI

[BarryAllen]

As for the British parliament whenever I feel that I need amusement I always watch the proceedings as they always make me laugh more than any comedian possibly can.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNuN-FRKcCI

A fine example. This was when Boris Johnson and the Conservative Party, lied yet again; in order to porogue Parliament, for their own benefit - albeit this time, instead of lying to the British people, they actually lied to our beloved Queen. A truly despicable event - even by Johnson & Co.'s extremely low standards of values, morals and honesty. This mob truly are sewer rats. John Bercow, Speaker of the House meanwhile, handled them all brilliantly.

Back to the Cups & Balls, one routine that hasn't been mentioned but is the first that I learnt, is the Pat Page routine - as outlined within his 'Big Book of Magic' (1976). I must go back to that this weekend and run through it. It's around a 3 minute routine; ending with the production of 3 larger sponge balls. There is excellent pace throughout, no room for any confusion - and no need to carry a pocket full of fruit & veg!

[MagicbyAlfred]

Speaking of Paul Daniels, I think it's fair to say that this particular performance is one of the most unique cup and ball presentations in the recorded history of magic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXxgUTq-bQ0

As a side note, it also utilizes what's gotta be the smallest and most dainty gibeciere ever.

[Tarotist]

What is to be admired about that routine is that I suspect it was never performed before and has never been performed again. It takes a certain nerve to go on television in front of millions of people and do something for the first time. There was probably only a day or two of rehearsals to get the thing into place and put it on television for the first time. Magicians who criticise performers who appear on television regularly don't realise what a challenge it is to come up with new material and often perform it for the very first time in front of millions of people.

As for Pat Page's Big Book of Magic it caused all hell to break loose when it was first published with magicians screaming about exposure. Yet nowadays those same magicians say nary a word about you tube exposure. As a performer Patrick was another one who had that hard edge. I remember when he came to Toronto and lectured and forgot he was not in front of a rude British audience and amused me greatly by treating a polite Toronto magic club audience in the same slightly aggressive manner. The trouble is as Ian observed, you get used to a certain style out of necessity but carry on in that style when it is no longer needed or even desirable.

Oh that reminds me. Talking about Paul Daniels I well remember the time there were great mutterings of disapproval concerning his marketing of the Dubreq line of magic tricks that I referred to before. At the IBM Convention in the UK (I forget where) there were speeches and complaints but nobody mentioned Paul's name or Dubreq's outright. There was just great chattering about exposure of magic tricks which were being sold to the public. I used to sell the items myself but I don't remember anything terribly vital about the tricks in particular.

Anyway, Paul was at the convention and understandably got fed up with all the criticism so he demanded time to make a speech about it himself. I remember part of it went something like this, "Well, we all know who you are talking about. For your information I have been a member of the IBM for years so I am entitled to answer back. I am looking round at the audience and I don't see a single professional here except Ali Bongo down there. Well I am a professional and I am the one who makes the rules about these matters. I am the one who decides what is exposure and what isn't" and then he went on to defend himself. I remember he got a big round of applause at the end and effectively shut up all the complainers.

[Tarotist]

As an aside, venue does play a strong part on performers' personas. I met Jon Van Der Put long before he was Piff, and remember the early days of the dragon. I saw him again in a late night cabaret a couple of years ago, and the effect of working in Vegas for a few years was very apparent; he was much more aggressive, and verbally insulting to everyone which whom he interacted. It was such a stark difference to his earlier version of the character, and this was in a very placid, positive room.

I am a bit puzzled by this. I spent a week in Vegas and found it dreadfully boring and highly over rated. Not a patch on good old Blackpool! But to get back on topic I did see quite a few shows down there. The audiences seemed terribly polite and nothing like British audiences at all. Perhaps I visited the wrong venues but even the people walking down the street seemed quite high class and respectable. I may well be wrong but I bet the Piff gentleman picked up his aggressiveness from the Brits rather than the Americans. I have never come across a bad audience in Canada and I suspect America is the same. There was only one exception in Toronto but the audience wasn't Canadian. They were Australians! Very rude indeed!

[katterfelt0]

Speaking of Paul Daniels, I think it's fair to say that this particular performance is one of the most unique cup and ball presentations in the recorded history of magic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXxgUTq-bQ0

As a side note, it also utilizes what's gotta be the smallest and most dainty gibeciere ever.

Thank you for posting that. I'd not seen it. It was well worth watching. And, as you say, unique.

[MagicbyAlfred]

Speaking of Paul Daniels, I think it's fair to say that this particular performance is one of the most unique cup and ball presentations in the recorded history of magic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXxgUTq-bQ0

As a side note, it also utilizes what's gotta be the smallest and most dainty gibeciere ever.

Thank you for posting that. I'd not seen it. It was well worth watching. And, as you say, unique.

You are welcome, Ketterfelt0. I'm glad you enjoyed it!

[El Mystico]

Paul Daniels live, at his peak, gave a wonderful show. Great material which he knew inside out. I recommended it to anyone. My memory nis that he opened with the chop cup - which (if I remember right), shows how well it played for him.
The later TV series in particular suffered from the problem that he hadn't had the chance to develop and 'personalise' the material. Too often he seemed to be walking through the material. He got away with it because he knew his sleight of hand and he had a strong personality. But - he wasn't at his best.
I remember him being a guest on the Irish Gay Byrne show. He performed a bunch of close-up classics brilliantly. I don't think it is online (there is a performance on Gay Byrne where he does card to wallet, but that's a different show). I hope someone recorded it.

[AJM]

I saw Paul Daniels way back in the day in an ‘end of the pier’ show in Blackpool where he topped the bill jointly with the late ‘comedienne’ Marti Caine.

However saw him in later years when he appeared at the Edinburgh Fringe in a double bill.

He did his one-man show first (including the chop cup routine) then moved to a smaller room in the same
venue and followed up with his Magic of Malini show. Both of these were excellent as I recall.

Andrew

[MagicbyAlfred]

There is no doubt that Paul was an excellent magician, as far as being skilled and polished. It would be difficult not to be with the vast experience he had as a performer. Overall, I think he was a very good entertainer except, as I've mentioned, I'm not crazy about the challenge or put-down aspect I've seen him employ with spectators. I understand that it might have resulted in part from the tough venues he played, and so forth, but my personal view is that, as a performer, my first obligation is to be gracious and respectful to those who take the time and energy to experience what I have to offer.

I thought El Mystico made a really good point in drawing a dichotomy between Paul's performances where he had had first had the chance to develop and "personalize" the material, versus those when he had not had that opportunity. Great sleight of hand skills and a strong personality are important assets, but those attributes alone will not allow a performer to be all they can be, either in terms of the magic or the presentation. Additionally (and again, I'm offering my own subjective opinion), I feel that making a connection with the spectators and making them feel really good about themselves, rather than showing off how clever we are, is paramount.

[Ian Kendall]

If you're interested in seeing what the Working Men's Clubs were like, back in the 70s there was a TV show with a fictitious one called The Wheeltappers and Shunters Social Club. Daniels did a couple of spots in 1975:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rl_lPkB9Eps

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1sOw3y3Nv0

[katterfelt0]

If you're interested in seeing what the Working Men's Clubs were like, back in the 70s there was a TV show with a fictitious one called The Wheeltappers and Shunters Social Club. Daniels did a couple of spots in 1975:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rl_lPkB9Eps

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1sOw3y3Nv0

Thank you, Ian. Those were informative to this Yank.