Spider Vanish

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.
Jonathan Townsend
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Re: Spiders catch flies

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 18th, 2022, 2:49 pm

Objecting to playing down to the audience, using weak methods, and expecting an extra beat on a lame horse to improve a magical moment all make sense. In Roth’s hands the vanish worked. Without that easy action and open looking classic palm the strategy is hobbled. Without something to move the routine along it could stop on a clunker. Not much worse than any other poor work though when some sucker aspect falls flat.

Going back to basics we get the same problem with pointing after a false transfer. Especially when the action is unconvincing.

So far this is all beginner fussing. Things one learns from introductory books or watching and listening to ones audiences.

Homework ;) Find at least two ways to use the Spider Vanish in routines that serve your purposes. You can start with an object palmed.
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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Tarotist » August 18th, 2022, 4:17 pm

Ian Kendall wrote:
Yes, but this is not a bad move. It may perhaps be a bad move for you but not for anyone else. I can see strong entertainment value from it.


Mark, read my reasons above. I stand by them.


I did read your reasons. You think it is too much of a challenge. Too much of a "gotcha" moment. I don't think it has to be any more than the Sucker Silk is. Of course you probably don't like that one either!

Still, do you know the French Drop colour change described by Ganson in the Vernon card book? Since you are well read in card magic you probably do. Do you harbour the same feelings over that trick? For those that don't know it you do the colour change in the normal way but the card sticks out a la the French Drop position and your right hand looks really cramped and it gives the illusion you have palmed it which you haven't. Spectators will accuse you of having the card in your hand but you eventually show there is nothing there. It has obvious similarities to the spider vanish. I wonder if you like the sound of it? I suspect you probably won't for the same reasons you don't like the spider vanish.

However, I can tell you it gets fantastic reactions from laymen who laugh their head of at being suckered. It is my favourite colour change. As long as you perform it in a non-arrogant manner it works astonishingly well. I suspect this spider vanish does the same although I have never actually tried it out on real people.

Michael Rubinstein
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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Michael Rubinstein » August 18th, 2022, 4:21 pm

Ian, I agree with you the the move is BAD if you make the focus of your action a hand apparently concealing a coin. That is what I mean by "important." However, the move is GOOD if the hand that really does conceal the coin can be shown naturally to be empty (regardless of the type of concealment you use), and the other hand casually opens so that the spectators can see for themselves it is empty without calling undue attention to that fact. That is very powerful, because the move itself shifts its focus to the opening of the first hand, and not the opening of the second (the "unimportant" action). And as it has been mentioned more than once on this thread, there are people that perform it as it is meant to be performed, so that the result looks like a natural action with both hands seen empty. If done as a "Don't look at my other hand, well OK, nope, not there, made ya look", you are correct.

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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Jackpot » August 18th, 2022, 11:31 pm

The spider vanish can be ugly and is not something that should be overused.  To be effective it needs to be supported by a strong routine and misdirection.

Quoting from David Roth's Expert Coin Magic:
"Do not, under any circumstance, emphasize the sucker aspect of the vanish -- it is both insulting and rude to the audience.  Just do it, show your left hand empty, pause for a beat, and continue.
It's the application and routining that make this sequence work."

Think about the way the spider vanish is used in "Shell Coins Across".  The routining focuses on the arrival of the fourth coin in the spectator's hand.  It's not about the vanish, it's about the coin traveling from the performer's hand to the spectator's hand.
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Michael Rubinstein
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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Michael Rubinstein » August 19th, 2022, 6:56 am

Exactly.

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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Tarotist » August 19th, 2022, 7:13 am

I am all for suckering the audience but a different psychology is at work. I half encourage heckling and act as if I don't really know what I am doing. They tend to be the aggressors-not me. When I turn the tables on them they love it and hecklers often become my best boosters. I let them underestimate me and then I go in for the kill. I am quite sure the spider vanish would work for me although there are some technical aspects I think need to be improved.

I do agree that it may not be suitable for others but then some of us are born to lead and some of us are born to follow...................

As I type it occurs to me that if David Roth DID emphasize the sucker part if he happened to do the trick on the Letterman show (I know he didn't) that WOULD be the right time and place to do it! Letterman would have fallen into the trap and wouldn't have minded a bit! As I previously have stated a good magician has to be a good psychologist.

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erdnasephile
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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby erdnasephile » August 19th, 2022, 9:29 am

There is a very good description of Geoff Latta's handling and application of the vanish on pages 112-113 of "The Long Goodbye"

The acting ability cited by RK comes into play: "You do nothing here to make your spectators feel they have been purposely deceived by the feint...The absence of the coin in the left hand is exposed through a nonchalant movement, not a barbed display."

It seems one the keys is to perform this bold vanish in a subtle manner.

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erdnasephile
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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby erdnasephile » August 19th, 2022, 10:05 am

In studying RK's book and David Roth's handling of the vanish through his many lectures/DVD's, one of the characteristics I've noted is that Roth performed the vanish in a brisk manner, which was not only consistent with his overall style, but also worked in not giving the spectator a chance to think too much.

However, the handling Roth used is often associated with Michael Skinner, who worked in a much more deliberate manner.

Did any of you ever see Michael Skinner perform the sleight? Does it work just as well at a more reserved pace?

BarryAllen
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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby BarryAllen » August 31st, 2022, 5:40 am

I wonder why those making negative comments about the Spider Vanish feel that it is inferior to many other false placements?

Irrespective of whether it's coins, balls, dice, etc. if you apparently place something in one hand that suddenly it isn't there any more, then guess what?

People truly aren't as dense, nor deceived, as some magicians appear to believe. In fact, you can deliver the most technically brilliant move ever created; but if something 'vanishes' from the hand that it was apparently placed into, then even a child will say "show me your other hand then". Magicians who haven't experienced this kickback, must have extremely polite audiences (rarely found in the UK these days)!

To this end, Mark has hit upon one of the best solutions above - you sleeve it (or use another ditching method).

However, what isn't mentioned above is that Marlo explains the Spider Vanish in the booklet 'Coining Magic' during a coin in folded paper routine - wherein it fits beautifully. You initially have the shade as you unfold the paper; and then you can ditch the coin at the same time as the paper.

I think it's called 'routining'.

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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Ian Kendall » August 31st, 2022, 6:06 am

I wonder why those making negative comments about the Spider Vanish feel that it is inferior to many other false placements?


Maybe read the thread again and have a wee think.

Irrespective of whether it's coins, balls, dice, etc. if you apparently place something in one hand that suddenly it isn't there any more, then guess what?


There are ways to mitigate this. Again, have a wee think.

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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Tarotist » August 31st, 2022, 7:46 am

I really must find time to see if my aged fingers can master this thing and try it out for myself. I don't really feel that I can pontificate on the matter unless I have actually experienced the move in performance for myself. Incidentally I think that also applies to the detractors of the move who also haven't mastered it. Expert Card Technique mentions that a performer can expect great things from something which turns out to be a dud and conversely expects what seems to be a dud turn out to be a sensation. You can never judge something until you have actually tried it out for yourself on real people. This wisdom can be tempered somewhat by gut feeling based on vast performing experience but even then you still don't really know until you actually do it for real people a few times. And of course vast performing experience is somewhat limited on this forum anyway.

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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Tarotist » August 31st, 2022, 9:38 am

I have been messing about with the move this morning and as a result of such messing about I have come to the conclusion that the detractors of the move are talking absolute nonsense. I notice that nobody criticises the Slydini sucker move in the Helicopter Card routine described in the Karl Fulves book. Slydini would do an apparently clumsy switch of the card he places in the fan and when he has aroused suspicion he shows that nothing has happened saying, "you must be dreaming"

Anyway this is what I came up with to educate the unenlightened. I would do the ugly spider move in question but not show the right hand yet. I would direct attention to the left hand saying, "I know what you are thinking!" then open the hand saying, "there's nothing here!" which should raise a laugh or at least a smile. Then continue by raising the right hand a trifle sleeving the coin saying, "Oh, by the way there's nothing here either!" opening the hand and now showing it empty. I bet it would get great reaction.

It is all in the presentation.

BarryAllen
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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby BarryAllen » September 2nd, 2022, 2:02 pm

Ian Kendall wrote:
I wonder why those making negative comments about the Spider Vanish feel that it is inferior to many other false placements?


Maybe read the thread again and have a wee think.

Irrespective of whether it's coins, balls, dice, etc. if you apparently place something in one hand that suddenly it isn't there any more, then guess what?


There are ways to mitigate this. Again, have a wee think.

Well......I've been 'wee thinking' consistently since reading your contribution yesterday.

Unfortunately dear chap, I haven't actually got the first idea what you are on about.

Suffice to say I wonder how many of those above with negative about the move, actually have a copy of Marlo's booklet 'Coining Magic' - and (as I've stated above) considered the move within the overall context of the routine?

More importantly, as Mark alludes to above, I wonder how many have actually tried it in the real world - before an audience?

There's a couple of things that perhaps you can have 'a wee think' about. ;)

BarryAllen
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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby BarryAllen » September 2nd, 2022, 7:31 pm

*comments

Jonathan Townsend
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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Jonathan Townsend » September 2nd, 2022, 9:10 pm

The Spider Vanish as written is less a fake-out French Drop and something more like a Roth Shuttle Pass action. Anyone have a motivation for waving the paper over your closed left hand before dropping in the packet?

For some reason I think of the coin fold as something like a miniature Steinmeyer Origami illusion - where the coin goes into the paper envelope, which then gets folded up even smaller, then unfolded, and the undamaged coin falls out...

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katterfelt0
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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby katterfelt0 » September 3rd, 2022, 8:02 am

Jonathan Townsend wrote:For some reason I think of the coin fold as something like a miniature Steinmeyer Origami illusion - where the coin goes into the paper envelope, which then gets folded up even smaller, then unfolded, and the undamaged coin falls out...


Jonathan, I love this idea. Thank you for that bit of inspiration.
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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Tarotist » September 8th, 2022, 12:49 pm

I have now figured out the best way to do this move although I have not yet tried it on a real human being. As I already described I show the left hand empty and while practicising this I noticed my right hand was right at the edge of my trouser pocket so no sleeving or ditching in other pockets was necessary. It was a very easy matter to simply drop the coin into my right trouser pocket while showing the left hand.

Of course the above scenario is performing in a standing position. However, if sitting then it can easily be dropped in the lap.


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