Spider Vanish

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.
Bob Farmer
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Spider Vanish

Postby Bob Farmer » August 15th, 2022, 4:39 pm

Ed Marlo's "Spider Vanish" (Coining Magic by Edward Marlo, Ireland 1957, pp.8-9) works like this. A coin is apparently taken from the left hand into the right hand, then that hand is spread palm down (like a spider) to show the coin has vanished.

However, since the left hand is being held in a very awkward position, as if it's holding the coin, the spectator believes the coin has vanished BECAUSE he believes it's actually in the left hand. That hand is then turned palm up and it's empty.

The coin really was taken into the right hand and Classic Palmed.

Richard Kaufman cites an earlier, early 1900s Sphinx version by Walter Gibson but we are at a loss to find it. Anyone out there have a Sphinx they can consult?

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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Edward Pungot » August 15th, 2022, 5:00 pm


Ian Kendall
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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Ian Kendall » August 15th, 2022, 5:40 pm

Can we all take a moment to agree that the Spider Vanish is bloody horrible and should be consigned to the depths of hell?

/FlameBait

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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby MagicbyAlfred » August 15th, 2022, 6:20 pm

Ian Kendall wrote:Can we all take a moment to agree that the Spider Vanish is bloody horrible and should be consigned to the depths of hell?

/FlameBait


Hell is too good for it.

Except for this one!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nb5D_Z6wWOE

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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Edward Pungot » August 15th, 2022, 6:27 pm


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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby erdnasephile » August 15th, 2022, 7:51 pm

Ian Kendall wrote:Can we all take a moment to agree that the Spider Vanish is bloody horrible and should be consigned to the depths of hell?


Mr. Kendall:

I have a ton of respect for you and Alfred because you both perform in the real world, so this is a sincere, non-flame-war type, inquiry:

What do you find is ineffective about the Spider Grip vanish? What are the most common mistakes you see when people try to do it? Are there other substitutes for its purpose that you have found effective?

I'm asking because I've studied magicians (e.g., David Roth) who were strong proponents of the move, and I was thinking about learning some routines that use it.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 15th, 2022, 9:43 pm

Both Roth and Latta used the Spider Grip Vanish, but it takes a great classic palm and good acting technique to pull off.
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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 15th, 2022, 9:50 pm

Ian Kendall wrote:Can we all take a moment to agree that the Spider Vanish is bloody horrible and should be consigned to the depths of hell?

/FlameBait

It can be played as a French Drop where you happen to show the other hand empty a moment later.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Edward Pungot » August 15th, 2022, 10:15 pm


Edward Pungot
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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Edward Pungot » August 15th, 2022, 10:36 pm


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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Ian Kendall » August 16th, 2022, 4:10 am

The Spider Vanish is pure challenge magic. It has a series of incredibly unnatural actions designed explicitly to get the spectator to concentrate on method, and not effect.

The single vanish of a coin is (I believe) one of the most pure magic effects there is (for several reasons). The Spider Vanish reduces it to a gotcha, and not in a good way.

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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby MagicbyAlfred » August 16th, 2022, 7:38 am

Ian Kendall wrote:The Spider Vanish is pure challenge magic. It has a series of incredibly unnatural actions designed explicitly to get the spectator to concentrate on method, and not effect.

The single vanish of a coin is (I believe) one of the most pure magic effects there is (for several reasons). The Spider Vanish reduces it to a gotcha, and not in a good way.


Very well articulated.

I concur completely.

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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Bob Farmer » August 16th, 2022, 8:09 am

All true. However, the psychology of the vanish--the challenge aspect--is, in other contexts, very powerful. More about this later.

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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Bob Farmer » August 16th, 2022, 9:19 am

The Sphinx reference would appear to be "The Misdirection Drop" by Walter Gibson. Is that correct?

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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby MagicbyAlfred » August 16th, 2022, 10:26 am

I'm sure that many of the esteemed members here are aware of comedian, Jerry Seinfeld's remarks about magic:

"All magic is, 'Here's a quarter, now it's gone. You're a jerk. Now it's back. You're an idiot.' "

Obviously, this kind of perception and feeling about magic (and therefore us) among laymen is to be avoided at all costs. In my opinion, coin magic should be something aesthetically pleasing, composed of, as Ian said, "pure magic effects," the vanish being perhaps the most beautiful and mystifying of those effects. After all, laymen do archetypically associate magic with making something disappear (e.g. their husband or wife, LOL). But once it turns into a challenge -- "Catch me if you can," or as Ian said, a "Gotcha," that beauty and sense of wonderment can be destroyed, or seriously compromised, and worse yet, the spectator may indeed feel like a fool or an idiot. We may have outwitted them, but at what cost? And to be honest, even though I have long done a one-coin routine, I have been going more and more sour on vanishing then reproducing, vanishing then reproducing, ad infinitum. In a way, it's a game of hide and seek that we always win, and they always lose. I wouldn't doubt that there are many other magicians who may feel differently about this.

I think that this is not for everyone, but here's an alternative vanish that avoids the challenge aspect, and at the same time obviously dispels the "It's in the other hand syndrome." If you can do any kind of decent vanish and a thumb palm, you can do this:
https://www.tiktok.com/@alfreddowaliby?lang=en

(I apologize that I do not know who, if anyone, to credit for this).

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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Paul Richards » August 16th, 2022, 10:39 am

Mike Gallo has an approach using a finger palm instead of the classic. In my opinion, his technique looks far less contrived and softer. When Mike does it, it feels more like the spectator discovers the hand empty as opposed to creating a "gotcha" moment.

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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Richard Kaufman » August 16th, 2022, 11:22 am

Not many people have a good enough classic palm to carry off the Spider Vanish convincingly; the emptiness of the taking hand is a bluff. Roth did this very well.
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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Bob Farmer » August 16th, 2022, 11:35 am


Edward Pungot
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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Edward Pungot » August 16th, 2022, 11:49 am

Lawernce O. [ from the Magic Cafe ] writes: The Spider Vanish appeared in 1902 in a small French book under the pen of Jean Caroly (a Paris magic dealer of that time).


https://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=316066&forum=3

Maybe Ask Alexander or our French conpatriots

https://www.auction.fr/_fr/lot/caroly-etude-sur-les-nouveaux-escamotages-de-pieces-et-sur-le-7435271

http://www.geniimagazine.com/wiki/index.php/Jean_Caroly
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Ian Kendall
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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Ian Kendall » August 16th, 2022, 11:56 am

Even if it's done flawlessly, the Spider Vanish is still an abomination. It reduces a sublime magical moment to a metaphorical slap in the face for the audience.

In other news, yesterday I was discussing a possible article called 'Hills I will die on'...

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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby MagicbyAlfred » August 16th, 2022, 12:32 pm



Thanx Bob. Now proper credit can be given.

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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 16th, 2022, 12:42 pm

Agreed that the version where you tuck the coin into your wrist bend is suboptimal as a vanish; but as a switch into a volunteer’s palm up hand it can serve.

David Roth discussed the spider vanish matter in lectures and on video. And published two routines using the item which use the vanish in context. He was clear about needing to be a gentleman about how you show that hand empty and warned against using a casual reveal action in place of an intentional empty hand display. This for both Malini and Ramsay type displays.

So, how is it that folks missed forty years of living dialog and published examples while offering strong opinions now?

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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Ian Kendall » August 16th, 2022, 1:38 pm

I've been offering this strong opinion for ages. You just weren't listening :)

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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby MagicbyAlfred » August 16th, 2022, 2:11 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote: So, how is it that folks missed forty years of living dialog and published examples while offering strong opinions now?


Opinions should be strong; otherwise, they are wishy-washy and lacking conviction.

Moreover, just because something is published, even by magicians who are widely deemed to be icons, doesn't mean that it shouldn't be scrutinized and challenged, and new frontiers forged. Otherwise we remain stagnant and don't find the best of ourselves to give to our audiences.

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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 16th, 2022, 2:53 pm

An argument against the vanish needs some motivation beyond "abomination". E. G. ;
Having the opinion that one needs to show an empty hand to reveal a coin vanish ... sensible.
Arguing that the French Drop procedure is inappropriate to set up a sucker vanish ... maybe.
Arguing that you need to have a decent French Drop and a good classic palm to use that vanish is fair.

So, other than some projection of "abomination" onto the item - what do you have?

@Edward Pungot, thanks for the reference link to the French book. :)

* of course you know this vanish is rumored to be in the coin/chip section of that card book from the same era ;) ;)

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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Ian Kendall » August 16th, 2022, 3:45 pm

Jonathan - I think I explained my objections to the move clearly; it is designed explicitly to get the spectator to focus on method, and not the effect.

That it does this with a 'gotcha' moment makes it worse. It's deliberately unnatural.

Which part of that do you not understand?

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Re: Spider web, no flies

Postby Jonathan Townsend » August 16th, 2022, 4:44 pm

We’d probably have a better discussion after establishing what motivates transferring the coin from hand to hand.

In isolation perhaps the coin vanish procedure is intrinsically troublesome. The Roth one-coin routine and the portable hole routine use the procedure to good effect. So that brings the question to context.

Playing the audience for fools has been out of fashion since before Rome. The audience dynamics of a coin vanish in particular was mentioned by Jerry Seinfeld, and discussed by Roth and before that by Nate Leipzig ( via the Vernon tribute book )

The guy who deceived magicians using feints was not so brash as to stop the action for a “gotcha” and instead used the moment to cover a different sleight.

As counter example consider the Sol Stone two coin vanish using the sun/moon gaff. The first coin goes using what amounts to French Drop. The second coin covers the first to permit showing both hands otherwise empty while getting into position to repeat the first procedure. The second coin is actually taken and palmed. In effect two coins vanish using identical procedure; while in method the second vanish procedure cancels any thoughts about the first. :) Sol’s vanish sequence also dates back forty years.

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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby kkelly » August 16th, 2022, 5:39 pm

bob,

i found the sphinx reference but was unable to figure out how to capture the pages so i cut and pasted below...
it is a small entry buried in the issue outside the trick section between two entries on tips on making a better show.

"THE "MISDIRECTION" DROP
WALTER B. GIBSON, Hamilton, N. Y.

The old "French Drop," when performed with a coin, is so well known that it can hardly be shown to a group of well informed spectators without one of them immediately requesting the performer to "show the other hand." Here is a move which never fails to fool the "wise ones"
who think they know how the trick is done. A coin is held in the left hand, between the thumb and fingers, at the tips. The right hand
approaches, and apparently removes the coin by the "French Drop." The move is executed rather clumsily, and the left hand is kept tightly
closed. A spectator is now asked to hold out his hand, the performer stating that he will cause the coin to vanish from his (own) right hand. Holding the latter over the spectator's outstretched palm, the magician suddenly opens and spreads his fingers, but the coin does not drop into the spectator's hand. The audience immediately wants to see the left hand. This request greatly embarrasses the performer, but finally
he opens the hand in question and, to the consternation of the spectators, the coin is not there.

The secret of the trick is quite simple. The coin is really taken in the right hand, and palmed therein, but the left is withdrawn so clumsily that the spectators, thinking they know how the trick is done, are absolutely certain that the coin is in the left hand. In fact, they usually express that opinion before the coin has been "vanished" from the right. Accordingly, when the performer tells a spectator to "catch the
coin," when he drops it from his right hand; and when the right fingers are spread apart, and no coin drops from the hand (because the coin is held in the palm), they are certain that the coin is in the left hand. Finally, after a little by-play, the performer opens his left hand; meantime he has had opportunity to pocket the coin, while attention is diverted from his right hand. This move is one which must be tried to be appreciated. It offers no difficulties, and it makes a great "sucker" trick."

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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Jeffrey Cowan » August 16th, 2022, 8:23 pm

Ian Kendall wrote:Can we all take a moment to agree that the Spider Vanish is bloody horrible and should be consigned to the depths of hell?

/FlameBait


Ian, you apparently have not seen Bob Kohler's version of the Spider Vanish. . .

BTW, when is that "hill" article coming out? :P ;) :D
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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Brad Jeffers » August 17th, 2022, 3:30 am

I remember, many years ago, watching Paul Cummings perform "Top Billing", his original Matrix routine, that used half dollars and paper currency as covers. I had just recently viewed his Up in Smoke video, and was therefore familiar with the mechanics of the routine.

Despite having this knowledge, when he got to the disappearance of the second coin, which utilized his version of the Spider Vanish,
my mind was - in that moment - fooled (deceived, mystified, bamboozled).

It was great!

It made me laugh.

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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Ian Kendall » August 17th, 2022, 7:20 am

"Ian, you apparently have not seen Bob Kohler's version of the Spider Vanish. . ."

If it involves explicitly making the spectators concentrate on method instead of effect, I already don't like it...

"BTW, when is that "hill" article coming out?"

Probably as a chapter in the book I'm currently writing.

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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Tarotist » August 17th, 2022, 7:11 pm

I have an aversion to spiders so that is probably why I haven't the slightest idea what a spider vanish is. However, Alfred mentions TikTok where I happen to be a superstar although I am far too modest to mention it terribly often. I shall therefore exert myself to look at his video and report back on the matter.

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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Tarotist » August 17th, 2022, 7:16 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:Both Roth and Latta used the Spider Grip Vanish, but it takes a great classic palm and good acting technique to pull off.


If David Roth actually used it, I suspect very strongly that it must be a good method. I consider him to be the greatest coin worker I have ever seen despite grumpy old Albert Goshman snarling to me, "he has no presentation". Actually I consider that he had excellent presentation and Goshman had no idea what he was talking about. If Roth made use of it, then it should be good enough for the rest of us.

I shall now investigate what it actually is and render my verdict on the matter.

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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Tarotist » August 17th, 2022, 7:33 pm

kkelly wrote:bob,

i found the sphinx reference but was unable to figure out how to capture the pages so i cut and pasted below...
it is a small entry buried in the issue outside the trick section between two entries on tips on making a better show.

"THE "MISDIRECTION" DROP
WALTER B. GIBSON, Hamilton, N. Y.

The old "French Drop," when performed with a coin, is so well known that it can hardly be shown to a group of well informed spectators without one of them immediately requesting the performer to "show the other hand." Here is a move which never fails to fool the "wise ones"
who think they know how the trick is done. A coin is held in the left hand, between the thumb and fingers, at the tips. The right hand
approaches, and apparently removes the coin by the "French Drop." The move is executed rather clumsily, and the left hand is kept tightly
closed. A spectator is now asked to hold out his hand, the performer stating that he will cause the coin to vanish from his (own) right hand. Holding the latter over the spectator's outstretched palm, the magician suddenly opens and spreads his fingers, but the coin does not drop into the spectator's hand. The audience immediately wants to see the left hand. This request greatly embarrasses the performer, but finally
he opens the hand in question and, to the consternation of the spectators, the coin is not there.

The secret of the trick is quite simple. The coin is really taken in the right hand, and palmed therein, but the left is withdrawn so clumsily that the spectators, thinking they know how the trick is done, are absolutely certain that the coin is in the left hand. In fact, they usually express that opinion before the coin has been "vanished" from the right. Accordingly, when the performer tells a spectator to "catch the
coin," when he drops it from his right hand; and when the right fingers are spread apart, and no coin drops from the hand (because the coin is held in the palm), they are certain that the coin is in the left hand. Finally, after a little by-play, the performer opens his left hand; meantime he has had opportunity to pocket the coin, while attention is diverted from his right hand. This move is one which must be tried to be appreciated. It offers no difficulties, and it makes a great "sucker" trick."


If this is indeed the spider vanish I see no problem with it. You have to be a good actor and a little tongue in cheek with it I imagine but it really is no problem if you are a "twinkle in the eye" type of performer. It actually reminds me of a different French Drop kind of trick. The Vernon French Drop colour change with cards! I have been doing it for decades and in some ways it is similar to the above Gibson description. It gets terrific reaction from laymen in the same way I imagine this coin vanish does.

The main problem with these items is NOT the trick! It is the attitude of the performer! If you have an attitude of "fooling" people when you work this will not be a good item for you. If however you are an entertainer who gives the illusion that he hasn't quite mastered his art (but in the end the spectators realise that he has!) you will get good results. As I mentioned on another thread to be a good magician you have to be a good psychologist. This vanish is a prime example of it. I can actually see me doing it. I don't like the pocketing though. I would probably incorporate a little sleeving or something.
Last edited by Tarotist on August 17th, 2022, 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Tarotist » August 17th, 2022, 7:44 pm

I have now seen Alfred's vanish and I have to admit it fooled me (to use that awful word). I had to watch it several times before it dawned on me that I use exactly the same vanish and have done for decades! I use it for my expansion of texture routine. I must be getting old not to recognize my own vanish!

I do see the first rude comment has come in but that is to be expected on TikTok. I have responded to the commenter to see if he really knows what is going on. The reply should be educational. They are mostly anonymous young people on TikTok so you will get blunt opinions.

On second thoughts I will not use sleeving when I do this spider thing. I will use the method that Alfred uses on TikTok. I will not explain it here. There is far too much bloody internet exposure as it is.

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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Michael Rubinstein » August 17th, 2022, 7:53 pm

A move is only a move.
It's what you do with it that can make it important.

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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Ian Kendall » August 18th, 2022, 3:03 am

Michael Rubinstein wrote:A move is only a move.
It's what you do with it that can make it important.


Not necessarily. A bad move will always be bad in other contexts.

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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Tarotist » August 18th, 2022, 4:50 am

Yes, but this is not a bad move. It may perhaps be a bad move for you but not for anyone else. I can see strong entertainment value from it.

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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Mark Tams » August 18th, 2022, 6:23 am

A move is only a move.
It's what you do with it that can make it important.


Like!

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Re: Spider Vanish

Postby Ian Kendall » August 18th, 2022, 1:05 pm

Yes, but this is not a bad move. It may perhaps be a bad move for you but not for anyone else. I can see strong entertainment value from it.


Mark, read my reasons above. I stand by them.


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