About John Ramsay's Pivot Vanish

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About John Ramsay's Pivot Vanish

Postby Jonathan Townsend » May 4th, 2022, 2:00 pm

Hi Folks,
This is for/about the pivot vanish sleight. You can see it demonstrated in the video that came with the John Ramsay genii issue a while ago.
Can you get the sleight working as well as seen? i.e. smoothly so it pretty much works in place of a retention pass, and quickly so it works as an "in passing" transfer - shown in the third coin vanish from the video mentioned above.

@Andy Galloway - any hints/tips or suggestions?

Thanks in advance,

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Re: About John Ramsay's Pivot Vanish

Postby Andy Galloway » May 7th, 2022, 2:57 pm

Jonathan,
I can only refer you to the descriptions of the vanish in The Ramsay Legend and The Ramsay Classics, also the demonstration in the DVD The Magic Of John Ramsay. The coin should be held lightly between the thumb and forefinger so that it pivots easily when the other hand closes apparently taking it.
Regards.

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Re: About John Ramsay's Pivot Vanish

Postby Jim Martin » May 7th, 2022, 4:32 pm

Thanks for this, Andy.
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Re: About John Ramsay's Pivot Vanish

Postby Larry Horowitz » May 7th, 2022, 10:29 pm

My only suggestion would be a bend of the thumb at the knuckle. This way the thumb is not flat against the coin. Really just the tip of the thumb is on the coin and acts as a pivot point.

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Re: About John Ramsay's Pivot Vanish

Postby Tarotist » May 15th, 2022, 8:41 pm

I have just been reading what appears to be a swivel vanish in Wildred Jonson's excellent (but hard to obtain) book "Mr Smith's Guide to Sleight of Hand". I have no idea if this is the same one as the John Ramsey vanish but I have a slight suspicion it might be. For all we know maybe this is where John Ramsey got it in the first place since the book was published around 1945.

Oh and while I am at it on the very same page is described what appears to be the retention of vision vanish. I am not sure if it is the one David Roth used but it certainly seems identical to the Crawford Vanish that both he and Vernon used. Jonson seems to imply that he is the inventor of such. This is what he wrote concerning the matter:

"My own method of palming has never to my knowledge been described in any book on magic. We will call it the JONSON PALM TRANSFER"
and then he goes on to describe what seems to me to be as near as dammit to the standard retention vanish.

Anyway check out the book if you are one of the lucky ones who happens to own a copy. If you don't own a copy you can certainly obtain it here: https://www.lybrary.com/mr-smiths-guide ... 22344.html

It is a damn good little book and one of my favourites. Even if you are not interested in the above vanish speculation you will get great value out of this little classic. I highly recommend it.

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Re: About John Ramsay's Pivot Vanish

Postby Larry Horowitz » May 17th, 2022, 10:25 pm

John Ramsay’s coin work was well known prior to 1945

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Re: About John Ramsay's Pivot Vanish

Postby Tarotist » May 17th, 2022, 10:43 pm

OK. Then maybe Jonson pinched it from him rather than the other way round! Or maybe they both independently invented it. Or maybe they aren't the same vanish anyway. So there are three scenarios and I don't care that much about any of them! I leave that stuff to people who indulge in that sort of thing.

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Re: About John Ramsay's Pivot Vanish

Postby Tarotist » May 18th, 2022, 9:53 pm

It has also occurred to me that it may well be the same move and it also may well be Jonson's as he claimed. It is quite possible he actually taught it to John Ramsay as they were both around at the same time. If I had the energy I would type out the small paragraph from the Mr Smith book describing what seems to be the pivot vanish so all you knowledge boxes can inform us as to whether it is the same sleight or not. You basically hold it at the tips of your thumb and second finger of the right hand, the left hand approaches to take and under cover of doing so you relax your thumb slightly and let gravity turn the coin upside down.
If you don't have the book and are interested enough ask me when I am in a less lazy mood and I will type out Jonson's short description

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Re: About John Ramsay's Pivot Vanish

Postby Andy Galloway » May 20th, 2022, 8:31 am

I don`t have a copy of `Mr Smith`s Guide To Sleight Of Hand ` at the moment and cannot compare Jonson`s move with the Ramsay Vanish, but the film in the video was made in 1939 and John had been using it for some years before that. Incidentally this book was the one which began Alex Elmsley`s interest in magic.

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Re: About John Ramsay's Pivot Vanish

Postby Tarotist » May 20th, 2022, 8:58 am

I have been trying to find the Ramsay video again so I can compare the description but alas although I saw it once it seems to have evaporated again in my illustrious presence. Anyway, when I get time I will type out Jonson's short description so we can get clarification. I am pretty sure that Jonson was around at the same time as John Ramsay but I haven't the energy to check for sure.

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Re: About John Ramsay's Pivot Vanish

Postby Tarotist » June 9th, 2022, 10:54 pm

Here is the Jonson description for those who are interested in that type of thing. I have no idea if it is the same as the Ramsay one and I don't particularly care either way but some of you with lots of time on your hands might so here it is:

"Hold the coin, say a half crown, by the sides near its edge, between the tips of the first finger and thumb, and approach the open left hand as though to place the coin therein. Slightly slacken the grip of the finger and thumb so that the coin turns by its own weight between those digits until it is in front of the tips of the second and third fingers. Just before the coin reaches the open left hand bring the tips of the second and third fingers against the side of the coin and remove the first finger, so that the coin is momentarily held by the middle fingers and thumb. Immediately remove the thumb and quickly close the second and third fingers to carry the coin into the palm. You will find the third finger takes a more active part in this movement than the second does. At the psychological moment the left hand closes, to complete the illusion of the coin being placed into it."

There are also some illustrations which I cannot reproduce here.

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Re: About John Ramsay's Pivot Vanish

Postby Brad Jeffers » June 10th, 2022, 5:16 am

Image

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Re: About John Ramsay's Pivot Vanish

Postby Tarotist » June 10th, 2022, 9:24 am

Yes! Those are the exact illustrations! I don't know how you knew how to do that! I never did understand computers! Anyway, you obviously own the book. I hope you got as much out of the book as I have!

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Re: About John Ramsay's Pivot Vanish

Postby Jonathan Townsend » June 10th, 2022, 10:45 am

Interesting item from Jonson. Very close the M Grivolas's item as published in 1901.

The Ramsay sleight has the right hand palm up, so the illusion needs to have the coin moving to the left and forward.
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Re: About John Ramsay's Pivot Vanish

Postby Jonathan Townsend » June 10th, 2022, 11:39 am

@serious student(s),

The sleight is essentially what we call a French Drop but done starting with the thumb and forefinger pinching the coin by its sides rather than holding the rim of the coin, with the coin facing the audience. The left hand's grasping action does not involve the thumb - as with the French Drop. Of course the cozy timing of a retention pass can apply if one is willing to move both hands after the sleight.

Have a look at the video - any thoughts or insights?
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: About John Ramsay's Pivot Vanish

Postby Tarotist » June 10th, 2022, 12:53 pm

I did look at the video. It may be heresy but it didn't look that great to me. However, I do concede there is a world of difference between viewing something in person and trying to see something from a distance in fuzzy old film footage. Still, I would have loved to see John Ramsay perform not so much to witness his sleight of hand ability which I have always regarded as of lesser importance but to see his presentational abilities. His patter, personality, charisma etc;. That is always far more important than mere digital dexterity.

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Re: About John Ramsay's Pivot Vanish

Postby Jonathan Townsend » June 10th, 2022, 3:52 pm

@Tarotist, That's a tough one - not many today recall the guy in person. And of course people-skills are more useful than "digital dexterity".

The guy did have a working false transfer - one that did not betray its trickery even when watched with a camera.
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Re: About John Ramsay's Pivot Vanish

Postby Richard Kaufman » June 10th, 2022, 4:22 pm

Tarotist wrote:Oh and while I am at it on the very same page is described what appears to be the retention of vision vanish. I am not sure if it is the one David Roth used but it certainly seems identical to the Crawford Vanish that both he and Vernon used. Jonson seems to imply that he is the inventor of such.


The Vernon and Crawford vanishes (both in Greater Magic) are not the same!
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Re: About John Ramsay's Pivot Vanish

Postby Tarotist » June 10th, 2022, 11:19 pm

I have no idea. I thought they were but I don't care particularly if they weren't. I do think the Jonson one is more or less the same as one or the other (or perhaps both for all I know) but I am sure as hell not going to type out another extract from the Mr Smith book to prove it!

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Re: About John Ramsay's Pivot Vanish

Postby Andy Galloway » June 11th, 2022, 7:09 pm

In the description of the Jonson vanish there seems to be some movement of the right hand fingers as they apparently place the coin in the left, whereas in the Ramsay vanish the right fingers do not move. The coin is held lightly between the tips of the forefinger and thumb so that the closing of the left fingers pivot the coin which then drops into the right hand. Any movement of the right fingers at this point would tell the spectators that they were involved in the sleight. The only fingers that move are the left as the seem to take the coin.

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Re: About John Ramsay's Pivot Vanish

Postby Tarotist » June 11th, 2022, 8:00 pm

I tried the Jonson vanish. There is no movement of the right fingers whatsoever. A slight relaxation of the thumb and forefinger and gravity does the rest. Even if there were movement of the right fingers (and again there actually isn't) the left hand would cover it anyway. I am beginning to think the Jonson vanish is as near as dammit to the Ramsay vanish as you can get. To outward appearances it looks just the same anyway.

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Re: About John Ramsay's Pivot Vanish

Postby Tarotist » June 11th, 2022, 8:05 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:@Tarotist, That's a tough one - not many today recall the guy in person. And of course people-skills are more useful than "digital dexterity".

The guy did have a working false transfer - one that did not betray its trickery even when watched with a camera.


About 55 or so years ago I was in Edinburgh selling svengali decks and I bumped into a very well known Scottish magician who I will not name. I asked him the same question, particularly about Ramsay's patter. He smiled and said, "No. Johnny didn't have much in the way of patter!"

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Re: About John Ramsay's Pivot Vanish

Postby Tarotist » June 12th, 2022, 5:56 am

Incidentally I should mention that in the Jonson vanish the right hand fingers do not put the coin into the left hand. Rather, the right hand keeps still and the left hand takes the coin. I do agree that the first sentence of the Jonson description gives the opposite impression.

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Re: About John Ramsay's Pivot Vanish

Postby Jonathan Townsend » June 14th, 2022, 1:30 pm

bring the tips of the second and third fingers against the side of the coin and remove the first finger, so that the coin is momentarily held by the middle fingers and thumb. Immediately remove the thumb and quickly close the second and third fingers to carry the coin into the palm.
Finger flutter is one of the risks of the sleight as described.
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Re: About John Ramsay's Pivot Vanish

Postby Tarotist » June 14th, 2022, 8:12 pm

The last sentence of the Jonson description is leading you to think about finger flutter. However the last sentence action takes place well after the left hand arrives to take the coin. The fingers don't make the slightest movement. Once the left hand takes (?) the item the right arm and hand drops to your side and while everyone is looking at the left hand the right fingers do the necessary palming. Nobody is looking at your right hand and only your left hand.

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Re: About John Ramsay's Pivot Vanish

Postby Jonathan Townsend » June 19th, 2022, 4:57 pm

I've posted a video onto my FB page - shows variations on the Jonson vanish and the Ramsay sleight - that's the version where the right hand stays still. You can see where some compromises get and where the Jonson sleight comes up short for palm up work.

https://www.facebook.com/jon.townsend.148/
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