Winged Silver by Koudai

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.
Koudai Iwatou
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Winged Silver by Koudai

Postby Koudai Iwatou » February 18th, 2022, 4:09 am

Hello, my friends.
I'm Koudai from Japan. This is my Coins Across routine.

[Coin Magic] Winged Silver
https://youtu.be/-DRumWPPuew

If you enjoy it, I am glad.

Regards,

Koudai.

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Re: Winged Silver by Koudai

Postby Dave Le Fevre » February 18th, 2022, 8:03 am

I really enjoyed watching that

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Re: Winged Silver by Koudai

Postby Al Schneider » February 18th, 2022, 9:43 am

Apparently you wish to entertain magicians. Curiously, the first thing you did was to show us you were using shell coins.
The single absolute truth is that we don't know.

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Re: Winged Silver by Koudai

Postby Koudai Iwatou » February 19th, 2022, 8:17 pm

Dave Le Fevre wrote:I really enjoyed watching that


That's good. Thank you!

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Re: Winged Silver by Koudai

Postby Koudai Iwatou » February 19th, 2022, 8:19 pm

Al Schneider wrote:Apparently you wish to entertain magicians. Curiously, the first thing you did was to show us you were using shell coins.


Thank you for your advice.
I didn't make it just for magicians, but it might have looked like that.
I will try to improve the unnatural points.

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Re: Winged Silver by Koudai

Postby PapaG » February 20th, 2022, 7:10 am

Al Schneider wrote:Apparently you wish to entertain magicians. Curiously, the first thing you did was to show us you were using shell coins.


Not a fan of that Luis Piedrahita display then?

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Re: Winged Silver by Koudai

Postby Al Schneider » February 20th, 2022, 2:54 pm

A real wizard would not bother to show his hand MT. He/she would not bother to show something normal. Then you (general you) don't have a clue what I am talking about.
The single absolute truth is that we don't know.

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Re: Winged Silver by Koudai

Postby Brad Jeffers » February 20th, 2022, 9:36 pm

General You reporting for duty ...
I see nothing wrong with Koudai's casual show of empty hands at the start of the routine.

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Re: Winged Silver by Koudai

Postby Jack Shalom » February 20th, 2022, 9:43 pm

Al Schneider wrote:Apparently you wish to entertain magicians. Curiously, the first thing you did was to show us you were using shell coins.


? Just the opposite--magicians know about shells, so the empty hand display is not going to fool them;
Laypeople on the other hand have no concept of shells--but they may suspect extra coins--so that's who the display is for.

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Re: Winged Silver by Koudai

Postby Jack Shalom » February 20th, 2022, 9:49 pm

Al Schneider wrote:A real wizard would not bother to show his hand MT. He/she would not bother to show something normal. Then you (general you) don't have a clue what I am talking about.


Nor would a real wizard use their power to move coins six inches across from one hand to another invisibly. Or link rings. Or make little balls appear and disappear under cups. You're looking for real wizards in the wrong place.

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Re: Winged Silver by Koudai

Postby Al Schneider » February 21st, 2022, 12:51 am

We open with a flourish of showing the hands MT.
Two coins are shown to be normal with a bit of fanfare.
Two coins on the table do not receive the same treatment.
Ergo, there is something wrong with them.
During the routine I had no clue where the shell coins were.
Then, with all the finger flutter, I just didn’t care.
The routine has been put on the forum to impress me?
Well I’m not.
Now I’m a bad guy for being negative?
Do you have any idea how much I have been blasted for my stuff?
Do you have any idea how often my matrix has been blasted.
Oh, Kaufman tells me to ignore the boobs.
Well there is a lot of them and some are on this forum.

There is extreme amount of finger flutter in moving the coins about.
Even a layman will notice the odd manipulation of the coins.
They might even wonder why the coins are being manipulated in such an unusual way.
I agree, the layman will not know what is going on.

All this finger flutter suggests it is some kind of manipulation.
But you said it; there is a suggestion of an extra coin.
Ergo, it is not magic.
But then we enter a trap, no one seems to define what magic is.
Dictionaries don’t seem to have that problem.

I agree, the manipulation is very good.
It will entertain and impress the layman.
But the body language suggests it is manipulation or gimmickry.
It does not look like magic
The single absolute truth is that we don't know.

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Re: Winged Silver by Koudai

Postby RobFromNZ » February 21st, 2022, 3:00 am

I have been a forum reader for a long time because I have an interest in magic. But unlike the OP, I don't contribute much to the body of ideas and work on here.

I think it's a shame, Al, to see Koudai contribute and the reaction you give. It seems like it's not just constructive criticism from a magic legend, but "looking down your nose" at him.

Perhaps I'm just not reading the tone right. I hope so.

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Re: Winged Silver by Koudai

Postby Al Schneider » February 21st, 2022, 4:28 am

I’m no legend. I’m just an old fart that lives in a corn field in Wisconsin. I don’t even think my magic is that great. In any of my work I can quickly point out faults and errors. I am just a nobody like you that can express my negative opinions as you just did.
The single absolute truth is that we don't know.

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Re: Winged Silver by Koudai

Postby PapaG » February 21st, 2022, 9:23 am

RobFromNZ wrote:Perhaps I'm just not reading the tone right. I hope so.


You’re not alone in that reading.

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Re: Winged Silver by Koudai

Postby Richard Kaufman » February 21st, 2022, 12:20 pm

RobFromNZ wrote:I have been a forum reader for a long time because I have an interest in magic. But unlike the OP, I don't contribute much to the body of ideas and work on here.

I think it's a shame, Al, to see Koudai contribute and the reaction you give. It seems like it's not just constructive criticism from a magic legend, but "looking down your nose" at him.

Perhaps I'm just not reading the tone right. I hope so.


I would KILL to get critique like this from Al. He can see exactly what's wrong. Most people just say, "That's so nice" which is the worst thing you can hear.
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Re: Winged Silver by Koudai

Postby Koudai Iwatou » February 21st, 2022, 1:52 pm

First of all, I would like to thank everyone.
Without the medium of the Internet, I would not have been able to interact across the ocean with these wonderful and respected magicians.

Every magician finds it difficult to understand exactly how magic looks to the audience.
Mirrors and videos don't tell who feels how.
So, after I have invented magic, I want to see how it was perceived.
Magic is completed by watching the audience's reaction.
Ultimately, it's up to me to decide whether to reflect people's opinions.
Therefore, both comments and suggestions are important flat materials for me.
Nice and bad, it's nice to have a reaction.

I want to keep the purpose and good parts of this magic and fix the parts that need improvement.
What I wanted to express with this magic is to across the coins while showing more empty hands.

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Re: Winged Silver by Koudai

Postby Al Schneider » February 21st, 2022, 3:58 pm

Thank you Richard! You inspire me to offer some wisdom from my lofty perch at the top of a mountain. A mountain of corn stalks. “The audience is the final judge.” But they are polite. Well, most are. But, to grow, the performer must observe the reaction of the audience to the magic presented. But you cannot look at the audience when the magic occurs. If your magic is good, the audience will feel a sense of shock the moment they see “MAGIC.” That is, for a moment their mental defenses are down. If you are looking at them at that moment, they shut down. Not only that, the enjoyment of seeing magic changes to ego protection. One must somehow allow the audience to observe the magic in their own space and time. A book could be written on this subject so I shan’t go on.

PS: Managing a shell is vastly more difficult than pure sleight of hand.

For most hobby magicians, this makes no sense. Thus, I am labeled an egocentric condescending individual. I wear it as a badge of honor.

This concept was developed while selling magic at Eagle Magic in the twin cities.
The single absolute truth is that we don't know.

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Re: Winged Silver by Koudai

Postby Tarotist » February 21st, 2022, 6:26 pm

I suppose I should take a look at the video and see if I can say anything rude about it. A bit of a quandary though. If I think it is bad I will say something rude about it. If I think it is good that means I will probably say something rude about Al. I wonder if I should be rude about both to make it fair and of course that will be twice the fun!

I suppose I could look at it and try to be constructive and not be rude to anyone but I would find that to be a bit of a strain and dreadfully boring. Or I might just say nothing either way but if I do that nobody will realise what a clever chap I am.

Anyway, I am off to look at it now and will (or will not) report back.

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Re: Winged Silver by Koudai

Postby Tarotist » February 21st, 2022, 6:36 pm

I have been and I have seen. I can't see anything to complain about it and in fact he did a beautiful job. Of course in real life situations working impromptu (or even in most professional situations) you need a bit of patter. Still, I don't speak Japanese so I am glad he didn't bother. I have no idea how well it goes over in real life but I imagine with good entertaining patter and an entertaining personality it goes over great. However, as a video piece which is all I can judge it by I would say it is excellent.

I haven't actually read Al's remarks so I can't be rude about him after all. Still, I will now read what he has to say and then make a decision on the matter.

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Re: Winged Silver by Koudai

Postby Tarotist » February 21st, 2022, 6:41 pm

Al Schneider wrote:Apparently you wish to entertain magicians. Curiously, the first thing you did was to show us you were using shell coins.


Oh dear! I am afraid that is a bad start! I haven't read the main part of Al's remarks but I really wish that he wouldn't expose secrets on the internet. There is far too much of that and I cannot possibly approve. Anyway, I shall now investigate the rest of what he has to say.

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Re: Winged Silver by Koudai

Postby Tarotist » February 21st, 2022, 6:43 pm

Jack Shalom wrote:
Al Schneider wrote:Apparently you wish to entertain magicians. Curiously, the first thing you did was to show us you were using shell coins.


? Just the opposite--magicians know about shells, so the empty hand display is not going to fool them;
Laypeople on the other hand have no concept of shells--but they may suspect extra coins--so that's who the display is for.


It bloody well fooled me until Al gave the game away!

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Re: Winged Silver by Koudai

Postby Tarotist » February 21st, 2022, 7:10 pm

OK. I have now read Al's critique. It seems his main point is that he doesn't like the finger fluttering or body language. Of course Slydini had lots of finger fluttering and gestures but nobody ever complained about that. Mind you, I don't actually remember any finger fluttering but of course I am getting old. I had better look at the video again. One moment please.

OK. I just watched the video three times and I couldn't see any finger fluttering or anything wrong with his body language. My advice to Koudai is three fold.

1. Just do exactly what you are doing now.
2. Completely ignore what magicians say no matter who they are (except me of course). LAYMEN are the only judges that really matter. Half the time magicians have their own biases and what may be right for them is not necessarily right for you. I personally am very wary of any advice or criticism from magicians since I find they are right only about 25% of the time. If however, you are looking for feedback from magicians only take advice from those you respect and even then think about it carefully as they could well be wrong. I have always said that the trouble with magicians is that they think their opinions are important. In any event posting something to get feedback from magicians is fraught with danger and could lead you on the wrong path because it could make you work on the wrong things.
3. Doing stuff to music for video purposes is all very well but in real life performing situations it is a whole new ball game. I have no idea what your presentational skills are like but remember that is the most important part of things. YOU are the magic not your fingers!

As for Al he is a cantankerous old genius but then so am I. You may be undecided as to which genius to listen to. Here is a good way to make up your mind:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnRuAOOwA2I

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Re: Winged Silver by Koudai

Postby Tom Stone » February 22nd, 2022, 4:17 pm

Al Schneider wrote:But the body language suggests it is manipulation or gimmickry.
It does not look like magic

Hm...

About 10 years ago, I wrote this in a Genii article:
When you start out as a beginner or amateur, everything is equally good! Quality is judged by quantity - and act with 12 tricks is 4 tricks better than an act with 8 tricks. And as the bags of tricks you have some little knowledge about grows, you begin to judge the construction of a piece solely by its novelty value.

Then, if time, place, visions and desires collide in a certain way, you might evolve an artistic sense. In some ways, that is both a good thing and a curse, because at that point a personal taste will emerge, and suddenly everything isn’t equally good anymore. Some tricks suddenly feel ’ugly’ and primitive while others suddenly feel elegant and beautiful. Some methodologies will feel more attractive than others.
Heated arguments with fellow magicians will not be uncommon, as both you and your opponent believe you possess the one and only truth. And in some ways both you and your opponent are equally right and equally wrong.


Your personal taste have led you to some splendid work, Al. But personal taste is not universal truth. Simplicity in handling is a valid aestethic choice, but so is the choice of a more ornamental handling. Yes, the routine doesn't quite get the impact it should have, but there are as many ways to fix it, as there are magicians with personal taste. In my eyes, the problem is too homogenous pacing and too little attention management, and I would solve it by adding more pronounced pauses and have the performer's head (and gaze) in the frame. In your eyes, the problem and solution is something else. It is all good. Koudai's own personal taste is evolving and I'm curious to see where it will take him.

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Re: Winged Silver by Koudai

Postby Al Schneider » February 22nd, 2022, 6:17 pm

I have observed your work. I don't value your opinion. My primary point here is that I do not fit with you people and should not be conversing with you as you are not aware. For the most part you are confused about what magic is. You would attempt to build a house without knowing what a house is. I am not saying you are wrong. I am saying you don't know. Understand, I am not a professional magician nor a publisher of magazines. Thus, money or popularity does not rule me nor shade my beliefs as it clearly affects yours. Note that magic is but one of my hobbies. I have invested tremendous effort in quantum mechanics, theoretical physics, computer science, and things totally beyond your grasp (that could change if I knew you better ) I have excelled in these pursuits beyond average levels. And I have similar problems with people in those fields. In short, eff off.
The single absolute truth is that we don't know.

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Re: Winged Silver by Koudai

Postby Tom Stone » February 22nd, 2022, 6:29 pm

Al Schneider wrote:I have invested tremendous effort in quantum mechanics, theoretical physics, computer science, and things totally beyond your grasp (that could change if I knew you better ) I have excelled in these pursuits beyond average levels. And I have similar problems with people in those fields. In short, eff off.

I hear you. You, alone, know the universal truth about the whole field of conjuring.

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Re: Winged Silver by Koudai

Postby Jonathan Townsend » February 22nd, 2022, 6:56 pm

@Koudai, music and dance are choices. Does the music also drive the action? moments \\ speak in gesture.

What compels a gesture which displays your empty hand? Possibilities there include coin hot, coin cold, coin slippery, coin sticky... perhaps a tiny pinch of magic powder-just enough to make a coin travel ; and any left over brushed away?

Getting the props into position is also a challenge. Life seldom permits parting the curtains and walking onto a set stage. To that a container, even just a folded cloth could serve.
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: Winged Silver by Koudai

Postby Koudai Iwatou » February 22nd, 2022, 7:04 pm

I thought a lot about why this video is controversial.
Because there are parts where both arguments feel right.

I consulted with Tomo Yuki who professional magician as I respect in Japan.
And I had them watch this magic live.
In conclusion, "I didn't mind the movement of my fingers."

There is a cause for this.
In the first place, I learned that the style that only shows my hand in a video is dangerous.
It is a kind of disease that magicians often want to show their empty hands.
I had the disease without knowing it.
I learned that not showing the empty hand enhances the effect of magic.
I think balance is important.
It works because I show my empty hands properly at the right time.

This disease does not develop by just showing magic while talking, but it can spread suddenly if I only move my hands.

I wanted to show magic beyond the language barrier, so I tried to establish the style to match music.
But at the end of the day, it's not all good for magic.

In the near future, I would like to make the video of talking style again.
Thank you.

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Re: Winged Silver by Koudai

Postby Tom Stone » February 23rd, 2022, 8:32 am

Al Schneider wrote:Understand, I am not a professional magician nor a publisher of magazines. Thus, money or popularity does not rule me nor shade my beliefs as it clearly affects yours. Note that magic is but one of my hobbies. I have invested tremendous effort in quantum mechanics, theoretical physics, computer science, and things totally beyond your grasp (that could change if I knew you better ) I have excelled in these pursuits beyond average levels.

While I don't quite understand the relevance of listing all the things unrelated to magic that you've invested effort in, it did sound intriguing.
Since these things are "beyond my grasp", I did ask friends at the Department of Theoretical Physics at Lund University what they thought about your tremendous contributions to their field... but sadly, they didn't recognize your name nor your work.
Then I tried to find reviews of your, seemingly self-published, books "New Age Quantum Physics" and "Quantum Mechanics A-Z without the BS"... but sadly, I could not find any proper reviews. None.
So then I tried to find any of your peer reviewed papers & articles... but sadly, scholar.google.com didn't generate any hits, nor show any papers citing your work.
I can't find anyone citing your "beyond average" work in computer science either. But I took a peek at the sourcecode for your curiously named website "World Magic Center" (which doesn't quite seem to be a center for any kind of world magic), and the sight made me somewhat puzzled. A HTML validator pointed out 110 coding errors and 17 warnings.

However, in comparison, it was surprisingly easy to find your 25 self-published magic books at Amazon. 25 self-published books is a lot, so I don't quite follow why you say you aren't a publisher, but I guess that too is "totally beyond my grasp".

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Re: Winged Silver by Koudai

Postby Sebastian B » February 23rd, 2022, 8:55 am

I am not as knowledgealble as the rest of the guys and girls on this forum. But...I like it. :)

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Re: Winged Silver by Koudai

Postby Tom Frame » February 23rd, 2022, 9:17 am

Al Schneider wrote:I do not fit with you people and should not be conversing with you as you are not aware.


And yet, here you are.

Al, is there anyone with whom you fit?

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Re: Winged Silver by Koudai

Postby katterfelt0 » February 23rd, 2022, 12:16 pm

Tom Frame wrote:Al, is there anyone with whom you fit?


Presumably other autodidacts and polymaths. Is that the plural for 'polymath'? It doesn't look right.
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Re: Winged Silver by Koudai

Postby Tarotist » February 23rd, 2022, 2:39 pm

Tom Stone wrote:
Al Schneider wrote:I have invested tremendous effort in quantum mechanics, theoretical physics, computer science, and things totally beyond your grasp (that could change if I knew you better ) I have excelled in these pursuits beyond average levels. And I have similar problems with people in those fields. In short, eff off.

I hear you. You, alone, know the universal truth about the whole field of conjuring.


I am not sure if Al was talking to you or talking to me. I will confess that I know nothing about quantum mechanics, theoretical physics, computer science etc; but I certainly agree with the concept that I do most certainly know the universal truth about the entire field of conjuring and I will be delighted to educate Al on the matter!

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Re: Winged Silver by Koudai

Postby Tarotist » February 23rd, 2022, 2:43 pm

Tom Stone wrote:
However, in comparison, it was surprisingly easy to find your 25 self-published magic books at Amazon. 25 self-published books is a lot, so I don't quite follow why you say you aren't a publisher, but I guess that too is "totally beyond my grasp".


I actually own one of Al's books and refer to it frequently. I have to confess that I quite like it!

With regard to Tom's comment about the head being in the frame oddly enough I am not keen on that concept and never have been. Not just for this video but others too. I far prefer to watch the hands only so I can focus on the magic exclusively. If I see the head in the frame it tends to distract me particularly if the performer isn't necessarily too pleasant to look at which does happen from time to time. Sure, it is OK to see the performer's face at the very beginning but that is about it. The less the better when performing close up magic in a video methinks. Of course this does not apply when performing live and you can't do too much of hands only stuff on TV but for a one off video I think it is perfectly fine or perhaps even preferable.

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Re: Winged Silver by Koudai

Postby Dave Le Fevre » February 23rd, 2022, 4:14 pm

When a video shows just the hands, one is watching the technical execution of a conjuring trick

When it shows the performer's face too, one is watching someone perform a conjuring trick

Depending on the trick on on the performer, it varies which of the two I prefer

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Re: Winged Silver by Koudai

Postby Tom Stone » February 23rd, 2022, 4:33 pm

Tarotist wrote:If I see the head in the frame it tends to distract me

That is only when the performer isn't performing, but running through the moves while watching themselves in the camera screen/monitor. The "zombie stare" they get then is quite unnerving and the opposite of good attention management. No one performs well with instant visual feedback.

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Re: Winged Silver by Koudai

Postby Jack Shalom » February 23rd, 2022, 4:36 pm

What the face is doing is not part of the technical execution?

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Re: Winged Silver by Koudai

Postby Chris Aguilar » February 23rd, 2022, 6:48 pm

Koudai Iwatou wrote:Hello, my friends.
I'm Koudai from Japan. This is my Coins Across routine.

[Coin Magic] Winged Silver
https://youtu.be/-DRumWPPuew

If you enjoy it, I am glad.

Regards,

Koudai.

Really nice, thanks for sharing.

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Re: Winged Silver by Koudai

Postby Tarotist » February 23rd, 2022, 7:11 pm

Jack Shalom wrote:What the face is doing is not part of the technical execution?


I do concede that if someone is dreadfully ugly it might suffice as good misdirection.

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Re: Winged Silver by Koudai

Postby PressureFan » February 23rd, 2022, 7:15 pm

I didn't see that coming.

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Re: Winged Silver by Koudai

Postby Tarotist » February 23rd, 2022, 7:26 pm

Al Schneider wrote: But you cannot look at the audience when the magic occurs. If your magic is good, the audience will feel a sense of shock the moment they see “MAGIC.” That is, for a moment their mental defenses are down. If you are looking at them at that moment, they shut down. Not only that, the enjoyment of seeing magic changes to ego protection. One must somehow allow the audience to observe the magic in their own space and time. A book could be written on this subject so I shan’t go on.


In actual fact you have mentioned this very point in a book you have already written. I did read this and took notice of it at the time. I thought it was a very astute observation and I actually mentioned it in an interview with Mahdi Gilbert.


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