Cross Cut Force Science

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.
Philippe Billot
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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Philippe Billot » December 22nd, 2021, 11:59 am

Excerpt from Encyclopedia of Impromptu Card Forces by Lewis Jones:

The Cross Cut

The Force card is on top of the face-down deck. A spectator cuts half of the deck on to the table, then places the original bottom half on top crosswise. After you have discussed the current political situation, the spectator is told, “Look at the card you cut to.” Sometimes the magician is kind enough to help him identify by lifting off the upper half and pointing to the top card of the remaining packet.

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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby MagicbyAlfred » December 22nd, 2021, 1:05 pm

Bob Farmer wrote:Use the David Berglas mind eraser strategy, i.e., give the spectator something to think about so he can't think about what just happened. As the Cross Cut is made ask him, "Do you play a lot of cards?"


I like it. And what's nice about asking someone a question, particularly if you look at them when doing so, is that it provides actually two types of misdirection: (1) Visual Distraction - They normally look at you, and away from the scene of the crime, and (2) Mental Distraction - It takes them down another path and away from thinking about or analyzing the true state of affairs.

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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Joe Lyons » December 22nd, 2021, 2:07 pm

MagicbyAlfred wrote:
Bob Farmer wrote:Use the David Berglas mind eraser strategy, i.e., give the spectator something to think about so he can't think about what just happened. As the Cross Cut is made ask him, "Do you play a lot of cards?"


I like it. And what's nice about asking someone a question, particularly if you look at them when doing so, is that it provides actually two types of misdirection: (1) Visual Distraction - They normally look at you, and away from the scene of the crime, and (2) Mental Distraction - It takes them down another path and away from thinking about or analyzing the true state of affairs.

It works perfectly.
I have a bit where I comment on how a wedding ring takes a relatively inexpensive piece of metal and makes it invaluable (to the wearer) by putting it on a finger.
I then ask them if I can trust them with it as I hand it to them.
They never see the false transfer.

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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby MagicbyAlfred » December 22nd, 2021, 3:52 pm

Joe Lyons Wrote: "I have a bit where I comment on how a wedding ring takes a relatively inexpensive piece of metal and makes it invaluable (to the wearer) by putting it on a finger.
I then ask them if I can trust them with it as I hand it to them.
They never see the false transfer."

Love it! Impromptu magic, engaging patter and comedy/entertainment, all in one nice little schtick, using a naturally justified and ungimmicked object that you have with you at all times. And, as an added bonus, it takes up no pocket space.

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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Edward Pungot » December 22nd, 2021, 5:42 pm

Then you could pull off your ring finger a la Meir Yedid and have ring and finger return to it's rightful place. No time delay needed. They won't know what just hit them.

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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Joe Lyons » December 22nd, 2021, 5:53 pm

Edward Pungot wrote:Then you could pull off your ring finger a la Meir Yedid and have ring and finger return to it's rightful place. No time delay needed. They won't know what just hit them.

That's sort of what I do.

Wedding rings are really magical objects. You take a metal ring worth a couple of hundred dollars, have a priest say a few words over it and it becomes priceless. Can I trust you to hold onto mine for a minute?

You hold out your hand and they reach for it, thinking about what you've said.
It disappears, reappearing back on your ring finger.
Well, it's a good thing I left it on.

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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Edward Pungot » December 22nd, 2021, 8:03 pm

To paraphrase the late Ricky Jay:
The hardest part of that trick is getting married.

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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Zig Zagger » December 23rd, 2021, 5:29 am

Some interesting thoughts here!

I noticed that some magi favor forcing the lower (face-up) card of the upper half here while others prefer pointing at the top (face-down) card of the lower pack. Maybe it doesn't matter at all, but any thoughts or research on these alternatives?

(Of course it's a presentational choice if you want the force card to be seen openly by everybody or just peeked at by one spectator.)
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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Tom Frame » December 23rd, 2021, 9:33 am

Has anyone considered performing the force with a face-up deck? Ultimately, the force card is the face-up bottom card of the upper half. The card is removed from the bottom of the packet so everyone can see it.

Or the upper packet could be lifted and turned face down. The force card is now the "unknown" top card of the face-down packet.

Think of it as the dim-witted cousin of a face-up Hindu Shuffle force.

It sounds like a terrible idea.

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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Edward Pungot » December 23rd, 2021, 10:54 am

Tom,
It sort of sounds like the cut and turn over and cut deeper and turnover face-up force. To do it face-up you would need one of your special cards ( see Weber's lecture notes RAM 2 ).

Brad Henderson
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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Brad Henderson » December 23rd, 2021, 12:29 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:You don't have to be a good actor: magicians are not actors. As an entertainer, you place the half of the deck on top and say anything, no matter how short, that will make the spectator think about something ... anything, even for a millisecond.


So time misdirection IS required. We are arguing about how long it needs to be

The problem with all these studies is they are presented as studies. Their context isn’t a magic show. People approach magic experiences with different expectations and act differently than they do in other situations.

The fact is people can see how the cross cut force works. Not everyone. And even fewer the more the performer can make the action seem insignificant at the time it occurs.

And yes, magicians CAN and DO perform the cross cut force badly. I’ve seen it scores of times.

It mostly has to do with scripting. I’ve seen magicians say the volunteer would be choosing a card - this puts the process under scrutiny. It’s better just to tell them to cut the cards. Or lift off some cards and place them ‘there’. I find ‘cut the cards’ is best used at the start and recalling with reminding them they ‘cut to a card’ after. Telling them they are cutting to a card in advance is risky.

Also, it is foolish to tell audiences that you are marking their cut. This also calls attention to the process at the time you don’t want. It also is a meaningless statement that invites scrutiny if someone is paying attention.

The secret to the cut is to focus only on what they need to know when they need to know it.

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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Joe Lyons » December 23rd, 2021, 1:22 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:
The secret to the cut is to focus only on what they need to know when they need to know it.

Exactly. For example:

Shuffle the cards.
Ask them to cut and then you replace the cut crosswise.
Place an envelope on the table.
Ask them which card they freely cut to they prefer (the bottom of the top stack or top of the bottom stack).
Pull the double face card out of the envelope with the correct face forward.
Go into an Ambitious routine or whatever.

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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Bob Farmer » December 23rd, 2021, 2:50 pm

Brad's points are great. Eugene Burger said many of the same things. See, page 27, The Performance of Close-Up Magic.

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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby MagicbyAlfred » December 26th, 2021, 6:35 am

Brad Henderson wrote:...Also, it is foolish to tell audiences that you are marking their cut. This also calls attention to the process at the time you don’t want...


This is an important point I hadn't considered before. Now I'm feeling lucky that no-one has ever openly contradicted me when I made such a declaration, and I'm thinking that there may well have been some people whom I unwittingly alerted to the discrepancy, but who mercifully remained silent.

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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Richard Kaufman » December 26th, 2021, 1:10 pm

For many years I also said, "I'll mark the point where you cut the deck" and not a single spectator ever contradicted me, nor did the force fail to fool. So I disagree with Brad because empirical evidence does not align with his statement.
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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby MagicbyAlfred » December 26th, 2021, 1:59 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:For many years I also said, "I'll mark the point where you cut the deck" and not a single spectator ever contradicted me, nor did the force fail to fool. So I disagree with Brad because empirical evidence does not align with his statement.


I have had the same empirical evidentiary experience over many years, and it made me sure that I was fooling/getting away with it every time. But Brad's comments made me wonder whether I was inviting unnecessary scrutiny that could trigger the analytical processes of sharp-eyed and/or skeptical spectators while what happened was fresh in their minds, and that maybe some did catch it, but didn't say anything.

But by the same token, I have always felt that a justification needed to be given for why I was placing the packet they cut off cross wise on the remaining packet and also, that if I failed to offer that justification, they wouldn't buy it subsequently, when I asked them to look at the card to which they "cut."

Well, in any event it's a very interesting and thought-provoking discussion.

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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Brad Henderson » December 26th, 2021, 2:46 pm

To comment on ‘marking the cut’ is pointless. It calls attention to the cards when you don’t want to call attention to the cards. It is also something no real human being would ever utter or think of uttering. When you cut cards, you complete the cut. Which is exactly what we do. They cut, you complete but by placing the cards at an angle.

And you aren’t offering empirical evidence, but anecdotal. I have used the ‘mark’ line and had someone say, but that’s not where I cut. And they were correct. It isn’t.

This was enough for me to reconsider using it.

I’ve been busted using the line. I never have when not using it.

The line adds nothing and is a potential determinant.

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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Brad Henderson » December 26th, 2021, 3:09 pm

Determinant = detriment

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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Brad Henderson » December 26th, 2021, 3:42 pm

Alfred

I never ask them to look at the card to which they cut. This is problematic as even if we did this without devotion would they know if we were discussing the top or bottom card at the location of the cut. Far better to show then the card and tell them to remember the card they cut to. I prefer using the bottom card of the (now) top packet as I can lift the packet and show it to them. No funny business

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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby MagicbyAlfred » December 26th, 2021, 3:47 pm

Another excellent point, Brad.

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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Peter Ross » December 26th, 2021, 7:18 pm

I once used the cross-cut force with cards across (to sum up the action so far and to pick a number for the cards to cross). After the trick, the spectator for whom I did the force, as well as others, came up to me and asked not how the cards crossed but how did I know how many would cross.

I had the spectator lift the top half with one hand and pick up the card with the other.

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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby magicfish » December 26th, 2021, 8:54 pm

Joe Mckay wrote:Andy (The Jerx) carried out research a few years ago that confirmed the Cross Cut force is the best force.

https://www.thejerx.com/blog/2017/10/8/ ... -unleashed

Except that it was nonsense.

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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Dave Le Fevre » December 27th, 2021, 4:07 am

Brad Henderson wrote:To comment on ‘marking the cut’ is pointless. It calls attention to the cards when you don’t want to call attention to the cards.
That's precisely what I realised many years ago, when I first used this force. So I simply perform the process, but make no commentary on what we're doing.

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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby MagicbyAlfred » December 27th, 2021, 9:32 am

Dave Le Fevre wrote:
Brad Henderson wrote:To comment on ‘marking the cut’ is pointless. It calls attention to the cards when you don’t want to call attention to the cards.
That's precisely what I realised many years ago, when I first used this force. So I simply perform the process, but make no commentary on what we're doing.


Good thinking! I'm late to the party - perhaps even unfashionably so - but better late than never...

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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Paco Nagata » December 27th, 2021, 9:36 am

We all may agreed that it pretty much depends on the spectators.
There are more and less attentive spectators or more and less inocent ones.
When I say inocent I don't mean stupid. I mean people that simply don't pay much attention to the magician's movement in detail.
When I was a boy my mother was inocent, whereas my father was terrible; he doubt every move I did.

In addition, a spectator that likes watching a magician doing magic is not precisely the same as a heckler.

I think that the very first thing a magician should do is to choose well his/her spectators, or, at least, to know if they really want to enjoy some good magic or only bother/pick on you.

No matter how good architect you are, if you don't choose a good soil, your build may fall down. Likewise, no matter how good magician you are, if your spectator don't respect you, they will doubt everything you do. That's why reputation is an important thing when it comes to fool by naïves ruses. And that's probably the reason Richard had absolutly no problem with it, like may have not many other reputated magicians.
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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Brad Jeffers » December 27th, 2021, 10:09 am

MagicbyAlfred wrote: Most spectators did not just fall off a turnip truck
From the Scientific Report ...

"We randomly numbered the back of every card from 1 to 52 and had two experimental conditions.

In the first condition, the Criss-Cross force was performed as in our second experiment, without any time delay or attentional misdirection. The only change was the numbers on the back of the cards.

For the second condition, we used a simpler event sequence:

The cards were also numbered on their back, and the experimenter simply asked the participants to cut the deck. Then she directly asked them to “take their card,” but still pointing at the forced one, which was the one on the top of the deck from the beginning.

Because this procedure did not contain the cross, participants should be able to understand their choice is manipulated.

However, even though participants had all the visual information to follow the force procedure correctly (numbers on the back of the cards), only 17% of them realised that their actions had no impact on the outcome."

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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Jonathan Townsend » December 27th, 2021, 11:25 am

?? The Classic Force is less than fifty percent effective? (early in the paper - they claim 45%)
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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Brad Henderson » December 27th, 2021, 11:34 am

Brad, this points to the fundamental flaw in testing magic concepts in non magic settings. The participants participate with an entirely different mindset than they bring to a ‘magic show.’ There is a different kind and level of attention. There is a lack of context, both globally as well as immediately (at the trick level ie there is no trick - only a process, ergo one has no narrative in which to evaluate the process).

It’s like giving change to a teller. We don’t scrutinize how they pass the coin from hand to hand to drawer because we aren’t expecting a ‘trick’. But if that wasn’t a teller but a magician in a show you can be assured that some in the crowd would be suspicious of the hand over EVEN IF NOTHING HAPPENED.

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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Chris Aguilar » December 27th, 2021, 12:09 pm

Brad Henderson wrote:Alfred

I never ask them to look at the card to which they cut. This is problematic as even if we did this without devotion would they know if we were discussing the top or bottom card at the location of the cut. Far better to show then the card and tell them to remember the card they cut to. I prefer using the bottom card of the (now) top packet as I can lift the packet and show it to them. No funny business


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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Brad Jeffers » December 27th, 2021, 5:17 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:?? The Classic Force is less than fifty percent effective? (early in the paper - they claim 45%)
"Empirical studies have shown that this force was successful 45% of the time, and participants reported the same amount of freedom for forced choices and unforced choices."

I'm not sure exactly what they meant by this.

Normally if someone told me their classical force was successful 45% of the time, I would take that to mean that 45% of the time the force card was selected.

However, in the context of this study, successful might mean that of all the times the force card was selected, 45% of the participants felt they had a free choice, while 55% felt (correctly) that they were influenced.

It's of interest to note that the Classical Force also scored a 45% "fairness score" in The Jerx's article, linked to earlier.

Perhaps the empirical studies they based the 45% on were from Andy!

If so, they neglected to give him credit.

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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby MagicbyAlfred » December 28th, 2021, 3:36 pm

Brad Jeffers Wrote [quoting from the paper] "Empirical studies have shown that this force was successful 45% of the time, and participants reported the same amount of freedom for forced choices and unforced choices."

I'm not sure exactly what they meant by this.

Normally if someone told me their classical force was successful 45% of the time, I would take that to mean that 45% of the time the force card was selected.

However, in the context of this study, successful might mean that of all the times the force card was selected, 45% of the participants felt they had a free choice, while 55% felt (correctly) that they were influenced.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Brad,

I would think that in the context of the study, it makes sense that "successful" means, as you noted, that of all the times the force card was selected, 45% of the participants felt they had a free choice, while 55% felt (correctly) that they were influenced. On the other hand, in the context of the study, the alternative meaning of "successful," i.e., that 45% of the time the force card was selected, wouldn't make any sense. At least from my understanding, they weren't testing how often they were able to get the participants to pick the force card using a classic force technique, but rather (1) what percentage of subjects upon whom the card was successfully forced felt like they had a free choice (and the converse); (2) what percentage of subjects upon whom no forcing technique was used and genuinely did have a free choice felt like they had a free choice (and the converse); and (3) a comparison of the numbers in scenario (1) and (2).

That said, the perplexing result appears to have been that 55% of the participants who genuinely had a free choice did not believe they had a free choice - precisely the same as the percentage of participants upon whom the card was forced. I think this raises at least one new hypothesis: Whether the majority of people who are asked to pick a card out of a hand-to-hand spread feel like they are being manipulated to take a particular card just by virtue of the "pick-a-card" approach itself? (regardless of whether or not manipulation is in fact being attempted)

Of course, like the other Brad has pointed out, it may be completely ineffectual to try to meaningfully extrapolate the outcomes in these academic studies and determine whether they have any significant validity or application to the real world laboratory of magicians performing magic for laymen.

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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Jonathan Townsend » December 28th, 2021, 4:26 pm

It’s like giving change to a teller. We don’t scrutinize how they pass the coin from hand to hand to drawer because we aren’t expecting a ‘trick’.


Notice that blink? The shift from "I do" to "they do". I hold that the item of interest is how the cashier gives us change. Purposefully and and in such a manner as to minimize any uncertainty about what you are picking up or accepting from their hand.

Okay back to "did you feel you had a free choice of cards"... tough question to ask. Tempting to design something using a DoubleDeck, pencil dot a card from among the dupes and practice the classic force... then ... maybe.
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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Jonathan Townsend » December 29th, 2021, 8:17 pm

@MagicbyAlfred - good finding there.
I was puzzled by the claim of choice when the procedure was:
Then, she directly asked them to “take their card,”...
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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Al Schneider » December 31st, 2021, 12:48 am

I am repeating my old song.
I maintain that humans have a huge library of "video clips" in their head. Real world events trigger these video clips so what a spectator "sees" is not what actually happens. The actions in the cross cut force are so common in our everyday activity the spectator probably doesn't know what actually happened. Only an expert sleight of hand expert could muck this up somehow by showing how fair it is. A comment was made that if scientists knew what was going on, they could have invented a great trick. Well I think I know what is going on and I have invented great tricks. Early in my practice of magic, I performed Allerton's aspirin box. I used the cross cut. One customer told me that when he cut the cards, I had placed a palmed card on top of the packet to accomplish the selection.

The point, listen to the head genii.
The single absolute truth is that we don't know.

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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Philippe Billot » December 31st, 2021, 4:03 am

Tom Frame wrote:Has anyone considered performing the force with a face-up deck? Ultimately, the force card is the face-up bottom card of the upper half. The card is removed from the bottom of the packet so everyone can see it.

Or the upper packet could be lifted and turned face down. The force card is now the "unknown" top card of the face-down packet.

Think of it as the dim-witted cousin of a face-up Hindu Shuffle force.

It sounds like a terrible idea.


See page 32, Face-up Fake-out X-Force in Criss-Crossing by Jon Racherbaumer (2015)

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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby MagicbyAlfred » December 31st, 2021, 10:01 am

Al Schneider wrote:I am repeating my old song.
I maintain that humans have a huge library of "video clips" in their head. Real world events trigger these video clips so what a spectator "sees" is not what actually happens. The actions in the cross cut force are so common in our everyday activity the spectator probably doesn't know what actually happened. Only an expert sleight of hand expert could muck this up somehow by showing how fair it is. A comment was made that if scientists knew what was going on, they could have invented a great trick. Well I think I know what is going on and I have invented great tricks.


Fair enough. However, perhaps it is my own failing, but i do not see what it is in the actions of the cross cut force that are "so common in our everyday activity." Many spectators do not play cards, and even many who do, don't do it every day. So the action of cutting cards, even outside the context of the cross cut force, isn't an everyday activity. And there is nothing common in everyday activity, or even in card games, about someone cutting and the dealer placing the cut-off packet on top of the other packet at a right angle, even if it's only for, as Richard does so, "for a millisecond." Indeed it is an odd procedure.

My inference from Al's comment about having invented great tricks as a rebuttal to Bob's comment about scientists not knowing "what was going on" (although I don't think that's exactly what Bob said), is that he is a scientist, yet knows what's going on. Yes, virtually no magician (or even layman) would argue that Matrix qualifies as a great trick, but unlike the overwhelming majority of scientists, Al is not merely a scientist, but a talented magician and magical thinker, as well.

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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Brad Henderson » December 31st, 2021, 11:04 am

I would offer a different conclusion from Al’s observation.

Yes - if we do our moves effectively we may indeed be triggering these mental videos that are what is perceived as opposed to the reality being executed. HOWEVER that requires the viewer be allowed to enter that ‘mental video’ state.

I contend that the context of ‘magic show’ can automatically place some viewers into a state where they actively work to prevent themselves from allowing those mental videos to play. This is what happens when the spectators see the ‘palmed cards’ in the cross cut force. These people’s perceptual attitudes and biases (I’m gonna catch the magician) prevent even casual moves from triggering the passive mental video response. To the contrary, they actually force themselves to create and ‘see’ fantastical ‘movies’ that fit their expectations and desires - even if they are nonsense.

Likewise, many magicians, by virtue of how they present the force, place the move under scrutiny in a way that it also prevents the viewer from triggering that ‘mental video’. This reinforces my claim. The move presented casually without comment is more likely to trigger these ‘mental movies’ where the audience sees the “expected” ( meaning the mundane) conditions as opposed to ‘seeing’ the ‘secret’.

Carny has written about this in regard to coin transfers. We magicians often call attention to the transfer as opposed to merely doing it casually and beneath the level of conscious perception. (He uses an analogy of how to pass the salt at the table).

If we just do the move in a way that looks natural with the appropriate level of attention raised then yes, Al is correct, the audience will see what’s expected which would be the natural action being simulated.

But our poor choices AND the context of a magic show changes that. We have to over come that ‘heightened unnatural perceptual state’ in which some audience go mere upon hearing ‘magic’ and which we often place them into by putting focus where we don’t want it - via tension, timing changes, scripting, blocking, etc

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Richard Kaufman
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Joined: July 18th, 2001, 12:00 pm
Favorite Magician: Theodore DeLand
Location: Washington DC
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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Richard Kaufman » December 31st, 2021, 11:24 am

A coin transfer is certainly to be ignored when you do it.
A coin transfer is not the Cross Cut Force.
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MagicbyAlfred
Posts: 2388
Joined: June 7th, 2015, 12:48 pm
Favorite Magician: Bill Malone
Location: Myrtle Beach, SC

Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby MagicbyAlfred » December 31st, 2021, 12:11 pm

To correct a possible ambiguity in my previous post, where I wrote: "Yes, virtually no magician (or even layman) would argue that Matrix qualifies as a great trick, but unlike the overwhelming majority of scientists, Al is not merely a scientist, but a talented magician and magical thinker, as well."

To clarify, what I meant to say was: "Yes, virtually no magician (or even layman) would argue that Matrix is not as a great trick..." It would have been much more straightforward and clear if I'd just written that "Al has undoubtedly invented great tricks, Matrix being a prominent example."

Brad Henderson
Posts: 4546
Joined: January 17th, 2008, 12:00 pm
Location: austin, tx

Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Brad Henderson » December 31st, 2021, 12:25 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:A coin transfer is certainly to be ignored when you do it.
A coin transfer is not the Cross Cut Force.


I disagree. The coin transfer is the same as the moment where the cards are cut and replaced. That act does not need to be under scrutiny and as we have seen, scrutiny has lead many audience members to tumble to the method.

We can put the focus in when they cut (though not really necessary) and when we show them the card they cut to. Everything else should be in shadow as it fail to reinforce the situation/conditions/actions to which we wish to direct our audiences and have them remember.

The cutting action (and subsequent) action should be no more important than any other cut ever made with cards. The cross cut works in part because this is a familiar action. Any choice that makes the act less familiar invites unwanted scrutiny and prevents the spec from ignoring the reality and allowing they ‘mental video’ to activate.


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