Cross Cut Force Science

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.
MagicbyAlfred
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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby MagicbyAlfred » December 31st, 2021, 1:58 pm

It's interesting to consider, in light of Brad's thoughts on the cross cut force (with which I agree), that, even assuming some time delay is necessary or optimal to take attention away from what transpired, it could (ironically) undermine or even nullify whatever benefit there may be to the time misdirection, to say anything to the effect of "we'll mark the spot where you cut." In making such a comment (and I have been an egregious offender), we actually engage their rational processes before taking their attention away from the scene of the crime, and at a time when everything is as fresh as can be in their mind. The comment, "we'll mark the spot where you cut" (or similar) is an implicit challenge, which, as Brad aptly noted, invites scrutiny.

Tarotist
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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Tarotist » December 31st, 2021, 2:15 pm

Al Schneider wrote:I am repeating my old song.
I maintain that humans have a huge library of "video clips" in their head. Real world events trigger these video clips so what a spectator "sees" is not what actually happens. The actions in the cross cut force are so common in our everyday activity the spectator probably doesn't know what actually happened. Only an expert sleight of hand expert could muck this up somehow by showing how fair it is. A comment was made that if scientists knew what was going on, they could have invented a great trick. Well I think I know what is going on and I have invented great tricks. Early in my practice of magic, I performed Allerton's aspirin box. I used the cross cut. One customer told me that when he cut the cards, I had placed a palmed card on top of the packet to accomplish the selection.

The point, listen to the head genii.


I actually agree with Al here. I consider this fact to be the end of civilisation as we know it.

Tarotist
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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Tarotist » December 31st, 2021, 2:16 pm

Richard Kaufman wrote:For many years I also said, "I'll mark the point where you cut the deck" and not a single spectator ever contradicted me, nor did the force fail to fool. So I disagree with Brad because empirical evidence does not align with his statement.


I also agree with what Richard says here. That is REALLY the end of civilization as we know it!

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Richard Kaufman » December 31st, 2021, 2:23 pm

Haha!
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Bob Farmer
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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Bob Farmer » December 31st, 2021, 4:29 pm

Civilization ended when sponge bunnies became popular.

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katterfelt0
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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby katterfelt0 » December 31st, 2021, 4:51 pm

I use sponge bunnies while wearing my flashing, animated 'rabbit in a hat' pin and a vest covered with pictures of playing cards.
Effect and method are inextricably linked.

Edward Pungot
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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Edward Pungot » December 31st, 2021, 8:13 pm

Western Civilization?
That would be a good idea.

--Mohandas Gandhi

Jonathan Townsend
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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Jonathan Townsend » December 31st, 2021, 9:31 pm

There is MUCH value in "perception from memory" analysis of narrative. Our perceptions are* a library we build and review as we go along. If we present according to common perceptions we have led the audience toward similarly normal expectations.

And as Al wrote, it takes a confused conjuror to mess up a mundane procedure and destroy those normal expectations.
----------------
Then there's accounting for the magic i. e. establishing some sense of causality for unlikely or unexpected outcomes.
----------------
The coin transfer itself is supposed to go by as "mundane" - distinct from any magical effects or process.
The card cut is part of normal card play. Interrupting the cut... ready to talk about pattern interrupts?

*Really - parts of the brain respond to edges, motion, etc. What we "see" is something we have learned to construct. Last century some direct anatomical insight into this "model" was gained using living creatures.

MagicbyAlfred
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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby MagicbyAlfred » January 1st, 2022, 8:19 am

OK, bringing sponge bunnies into this discussion crosses the line, is an unkind cut, and forces me to respond.

Please do not malign one of, if not thee, most entertaining and beloved trick ever created. Well, to be fair, maybe not beloved by most magicians, just by laymen -- but we all know they don't really count.

Civilization (if, indeed, it has ever really existed) did not end with the dawn of sponge bunnies.
That's when it began.

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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Tarotist » January 1st, 2022, 8:39 pm

Tarotist wrote:I have had a lot of success with the Cross Cut Force. However, I do find that the best way to get the most out of it is to only use it for certain tricks, preferably those that need a bit of time misdirection. I use it for a Jon Tremaine item that he used to call "Voodoo Spirit" for which the move is ideal. I think it is based on a Dr Jaks trick which although similar is not identical. I wish I could remember the name of it. I think it only uses 4 cards and I vaguely remember the cards had letters on them.


Aha! I do believe I have just remembered the name of the Dr Jaks trick above referred to. I have a vague memory that it was invented around 1955 and it was called "What Card?" I can't remember the exact effect or even if the cross cut force was used although I think it was. I suspect it was quite similar to Voodoo Spirit where the cross cut is indeed used.

Incidentally I may get struck down by lightning but I ALWAYS say "We'll mark the place you cut" and have done so for decades and so far not a single person has ever questioned it. Come to think of it I first started doing it when I was a teenager and working mostly to other onoxious teenagers. If they had figured out what I was up to they wouldn't have hesitated to blurt it out immediately. Come to think of it, those mouthy teenager gave me invaluable experience in handling hecklers because they used to do it all the time.

Here is a hint on handling hecklers when doing close up magic. NEVER fight them or answer them back. Let them underestimate you and then you go in for the kill. They will then, paradoxically become your biggest fans. Hidden away in the presentation section of Expert Card Technique it tells you exactly what to do when you encounter hecklers when working close up. I forget what it says but I do remember it was terribly useful to me at the time.

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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Jonathan Townsend » January 3rd, 2022, 10:16 pm

@Tarotist, in that routine, did you introduce the props after they cut the pack? After the cut but before you showed them the card they cut to?
the pack is shuffled,
they cut the pack into two piles
the performer introduces the four black cards (or some other prop)
then the prop is set to the side and the audience is shown the 'selected card'.

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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Tarotist » January 4th, 2022, 7:11 pm

I haven't done the trick for ages so I shall have to think. Actually I should probably start doing it again. It was actually a very good trick.

One moment while I think. There! I just thunk!

I would indeed have them cut the pack before introducing the four blank cards. I would replace the cut and say, "OK. We'll mark the place you cut" and as far as I remember was not struck down by lightning over the matter. I would then show the four cards to be blank on both sides and lay them on the table. I am a little hazy on what I did next but I think that I picked up the top portion of the cut and showed it to them without looking at it myself, saying "concentrate on the card you cut to and visualise it in your mind".

I would then get him or her to select two of the blank cards. I would pick them up and ask the spectator to visualise the card he looked at a moment ago then after a few seconds ask him what it was. I would then ask him to spread the two blank cards in his hands and lo and behold the visualised card would emanate from the spirits (thus the name Voodoo Spirit).

I must have done the trick hundreds of times. I remember carrying the four blank cards in my wallet so I could do the trick any time. Never once in all the hundreds of times did a single person say, "I didn't mark the cut there" or "that was the bottom card"

As Harry Lorayne once wrote "Magicians worry about things that laymen don't give a darn about".

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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Tarotist » January 4th, 2022, 7:23 pm

I may have this all wrong but little snippets of memory are returning to me regarding the Dr Jaks trick. "What Card". I bet it is very similar to the Voodoo Spirit as described above. It has dawned on me that there are 8 letters in the name of the trick. Since there are 4 cards used and you show both sides of each card (just like Voodoo Spirit) that leads me to believe you show the first card which has a big letter W on it. You turn it over showing the letter H. Then lay the card down on the table and repeat the procedure with the next card showing A and then T on the other side. Repeat the phrase in the same way with the last two cards. You have done either the Cross Cut force or some other force method and you now ask the spectator to point to just one card. If you position the card right they will choose the one you want or if they don't then you use the Magicians Choice and you reveal the card you forced.

I don't know for sure if that was the What Card trick of Dr Jaks but I suspect it was. The Voodoo spirit is a variation and probably preferable since blank cards are easier to come by than lettered cards.

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Richard Kaufman » January 4th, 2022, 8:12 pm

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Tarotist
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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Tarotist » January 4th, 2022, 10:45 pm

Yes. That's the one! I remember the black cards! It is indeed just like Voodoo Spirit. Same trick more or less but without the spelling. I think I prefer the Voodoo Spirit version although it is a matter of taste.

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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby MagicbyAlfred » January 5th, 2022, 6:42 pm

I've not done the Jaks/Elmsley "What Card" or the Voodoo Spirit Trick (although I did clumsily stick myself with a pin recently). But, like Tarotist, I would be inclined to go with the Voodoo Spirit. It strikes me as a more vivid contrast and mystical effect for an image to appear on a completely blank card, versus appearing on a card with a letter printed on it. In any event, these tricks sound like they are perfect for the cross cut force; the time misdirection is built-in and perfectly justified. And whether one agrees or disagrees as to whether time misdirection is needed, there is certainly nothing to lose by having it; whereas there could be by not having it.

As to whether it's a good idea or not to say words to the effect of "We'll mark the cut," as Tarotist has done without any overt repercussions, even from teenage hooligans, but as Brad H has advised against based on his own differing experience, I don't think the question will get settled here.

As I mentioned in a prior post, I have personally never been called out when I said, “We'll mark the place where you cut,” and have worked in establishments where certain of the clientele would not hesitate for a second to do so. However, I’ve also worked a lot of events in “polite society” and it’s entirely possible that some people detected my lie (and that’s what it is, a bald-faced lie), but graciously refrained from saying anything. So, after hearing Brad H’s argument, I’m persuaded to abstain from saying anything about the matter until after what I think is sufficient time misdirection, and wait until it’s time for them to look at the card, and then, and only then, ask them to “look at [or take] take the card you cut to.” Still a lie, and still a risk of getting caught by someone really sharp, but I believe there is far less chance of getting busted than in the “We’ll mark the cut” or “We’ll mark the place where you cut” scenario, which occurs immediately after they cut the top portion, and before memory or perception have had even half a chance to fade.

But, in the final analysis, doesn’t it come down to what works for each magician? After all, nothing succeeds like success.

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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Tarotist » January 5th, 2022, 8:06 pm

I keep getting a psychic vibe from my spirit guides. They keep saying to me, "If it ain't broke don't fix it"

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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Tarotist » January 5th, 2022, 8:15 pm

It has just dawned on me that I used to sell "Voodoo Spirit" some decades ago in Blackpool via the MARK LEWIS MAGIC STUDIO. I can't remember but I might even have advertised it in Abra. I may or may not have some stock left from decades ago. I can check tomorrow. I am pretty sure I have the necessary cards. I am not sure about the instructions. If I do have the instructions I expect they will be very sparse indeed. In those days I wasn't too concerned about value for money.

Maybe I should rewrite the instructions and sell the trick for some outrageous price! Anybody interested?

MagicbyAlfred
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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby MagicbyAlfred » January 5th, 2022, 9:39 pm

Tarotist wrote:I keep getting a psychic vibe from my spirit guides. They keep saying to me, "If it ain't broke don't fix it"


Well yes, there's that. But then my spirit guides (Jack Daniels and Johnny Walker) are telling me that if I didn't write something, this fascinating thread would fade away into oblivion, and I would be bored to tears.

Al Schneider
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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Al Schneider » February 10th, 2022, 4:47 pm

Magic is a class of events of which there is no possible explanation.

62 years ago I did a trick in Gusipes pizzeria. It was after a high school football game. At the time I was doing Bert Allerton’s aspirin box routine. I used the cross cut to have a card selected. Roy, one of my little audience, said that after he cut the cards, I placed a palmed card on top of the stack as if I had forced the card that way.

First, this attests to the power of the cross cut.

Second, it demonstrates that I did not do magic. The above definition of magic includes the words, “no possible explanation.” Well, Roy had a possible explanation. So, for him, it was not magic.

Now, I know how to avoid that situation. And, because I have said definition, I can quickly discern the existence of a problem.
The single absolute truth is that we don't know.

Bob Farmer
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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Bob Farmer » February 10th, 2022, 6:01 pm

"No possible explanation" does not include an "impossible explanation."

Al Schneider
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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby Al Schneider » February 10th, 2022, 6:45 pm

Spectators always have an impossible explanation. Eat it.
The single absolute truth is that we don't know.

kkelly
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Re: Cross Cut Force Science

Postby kkelly » February 10th, 2022, 7:20 pm

"eat it" ?


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