Do we see reality?

Discuss your favorite close-up tricks and methods.
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Tom Frame
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Re: Do we see reality?

Postby Tom Frame » October 15th, 2021, 12:17 pm

Edward,

I’m sorry to hear about your ordeal. If you took what Sacks took, it was Artane, a toxic compound used to treat the stiffness, spasms, and poor muscle control of Parkinson's disease and tardive dyskinesia. He and you took a dose large enough to induce delirium. A hallmark symptom of delirium are hallucinations.

When a person’s eyes are open and they see and hear and smell and feel things that don’t actually exist in their environment, they are experiencing a hallucination. The hallucination seems real and the person often interacts with the hallucinated images.

Alfred’s allusion to Leary compels me to make an important distinction. Psychoactive compounds like LSD, n,n DMT, 5 MeO DMT, psilocybin mushrooms and mescaline are not hallucinogens. They do not produce hallucinations!

In 1956, in a letter to Aldous Huxley, pioneering LSD researcher Dr. Humphry Osmond wrote, “To fathom hell or soar angelic, just take a pinch of psychedelic.” Thus, he coined the term “psychedelic”, meaning mind-manifesting. That is the appropriate term for these non-toxic, non-addictive, transformative compounds.

When you’re on a psychedelic trip and your eyes are open, you do not see and hear and smell and feel things that don’t actually exist in the environment. You don’t look at an empty field and see a tree.

When you look at a real tree while tripping, it may appear distorted, extraordinarily detailed, rippling, breathing, magnificently colored. You may feel like you’re communing with it or merging with it. But it’s still a real tree, not a hallucination.

If you close your eyes while tripping, you’ll witness magical mind movies. You are swept away in an indescribably colorful, immersive, moving, euphoric, visual feast, manifested by your unique psyche. But because your eyes are closed, these images aren’t called hallucinations. They are called Closed Eye Visuals (CEV).


End of rantutorial.

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Q. Kumber
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Re: Do we see reality?

Postby Q. Kumber » October 15th, 2021, 2:23 pm

Tom Frame wrote:Edward,

I’m sorry to hear about your ordeal. If you took what Sacks took, it was Artane, a toxic compound used to treat the stiffness, spasms, and poor muscle control of Parkinson's disease and tardive dyskinesia. He and you took a dose large enough to induce delirium. A hallmark symptom of delirium are hallucinations.

When a person’s eyes are open and they see and hear and smell and feel things that don’t actually exist in their environment, they are experiencing a hallucination. The hallucination seems real and the person often interacts with the hallucinated images.

Alfred’s allusion to Leary compels me to make an important distinction. Psychoactive compounds like LSD, n,n DMT, 5 MeO DMT, psilocybin mushrooms and mescaline are not hallucinogens. They do not produce hallucinations!

In 1956, in a letter to Aldous Huxley, pioneering LSD researcher Dr. Humphry Osmond wrote, “To fathom hell or soar angelic, just take a pinch of psychedelic.” Thus, he coined the term “psychedelic”, meaning mind-manifesting. That is the appropriate term for these non-toxic, non-addictive, transformative compounds.

When you’re on a psychedelic trip and your eyes are open, you do not see and hear and smell and feel things that don’t actually exist in the environment. You don’t look at an empty field and see a tree.

When you look at a real tree while tripping, it may appear distorted, extraordinarily detailed, rippling, breathing, magnificently colored. You may feel like you’re communing with it or merging with it. But it’s still a real tree, not a hallucination.

If you close your eyes while tripping, you’ll witness magical mind movies. You are swept away in an indescribably colorful, immersive, moving, euphoric, visual feast, manifested by your unique psyche. But because your eyes are closed, these images aren’t called hallucinations. They are called Closed Eye Visuals (CEV).


End of rantutorial.


Perhaps the most useful post ever made on a magic forum ;)

Al Schneider
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Re: Do we see reality?

Postby Al Schneider » October 15th, 2021, 3:53 pm

I still think I am an alien from another planet.
I see things that aren't there.
Some time ago i watched a video trick.
It involved a box of matches.
During the explanation the performer said there was one match in the box.
I knew he was wrong.
I knew the box was full of matches.
There was an image burned in my mind of a box full of matches.
I rewound the tape and sure enough there was only one match in play.
Now I am trying to find out how someone could change the video that quickly.

Another event.
During a class I taught in Minneapolis long ago, a fifteen year old girl took my class.
The first thing taught is my way of doing the vanish.
The problem is that after two weeks of class, I would see a coin fly through the air when she did the move.
Later I learned she was teaching magic at the local Jewish center.
I think she went to my class just to punk me.
The single absolute truth is that we don't know.

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Re: Do we see reality?

Postby Tom Gilbert » October 15th, 2021, 9:07 pm

Maybe everyone's reality is totally different?

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Re: Do we see reality?

Postby Al Schneider » October 15th, 2021, 9:11 pm

I wouldn't say totally.
The single absolute truth is that we don't know.

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Re: Do we see reality?

Postby katterfelt0 » October 15th, 2021, 10:46 pm

Tom Frame wrote:When you’re on a psychedelic trip and your eyes are open, you do not see and hear and smell and feel things that don’t actually exist in the environment. You don’t look at an empty field and see a tree.

When you look at a real tree while tripping, it may appear distorted, extraordinarily detailed, rippling, breathing, magnificently colored. You may feel like you’re communing with it or merging with it. But it’s still a real tree, not a hallucination.

If you close your eyes while tripping, you’ll witness magical mind movies. You are swept away in an indescribably colorful, immersive, moving, euphoric, visual feast, manifested by your unique psyche. But because your eyes are closed, these images aren’t called hallucinations. They are called Closed Eye Visuals (CEV).

End of rantutorial.

OK, now I want to try psychedelics. I've lived a very sheltered life.
Effect and method are inextricably linked.

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Brad Jeffers
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Re: Do we see reality?

Postby Brad Jeffers » October 16th, 2021, 1:23 am

Tom Frame wrote:Psychoactive compounds like LSD, n,n DMT, 5 MeO DMT, psilocybin mushrooms and mescaline are not hallucinogens. They do not produce hallucinations!

You are incorrect.
They are hallucinogens and they do produce hallucinations.

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Tom Frame
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Re: Do we see reality?

Postby Tom Frame » October 16th, 2021, 9:43 am

Brad,

Your pithy protest suggests that your definition of a hallucination is contrary to the consensus of the medical, psychiatric and psychotherapy communities. Please share your unique definition of the term.

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Re: Do we see reality?

Postby Enee_T » October 16th, 2021, 1:46 pm

Edward Pungot wrote:Long term memory storage and top-down brain processing are magical mechanisms in regards to perceiving the "outside" world.

I remember reading Oliver Sacks' Hallucinations book when it first came out (having borrowed it from the local library). There was an unbelievable personal first-hand drug-induced account description of his visual , auditory and other sensory registrars on a particular helicopter scene flying closely overhead his residence. Only to realize later on that there was no helicopter. But at the time it seemed so real, even down to the wind of the blades of the helicopter blowing over him. It was like homemade CGI coming from his own store-house of his brain.

Well, this intrigued the hell out of me. So I managed to acquire the drug from India. The realness is unbelievable.

I remember sitting down at the dining room table alone. My mother is at work but sitting right across from me is my mother talking to me as if she was really there. No ghostly apparition, it looked solid and real as if she was really there, mannerisms and everything, even auditory. The detail and her image imbeded with the surrounding environment was unbelievable. The attention to detail that operates under the radar is staggering just to make everything seem copacetic.

Even logically reasoning to oneself didn't make the illusion go away. What broke the illusion was when I reached out my hand to touch her face, at which point she froze like a robot and the image on her face began to melt as if it were made of wax. The the the...was then edited out.


Very interesting. The realness of what you saw does not surprise me at all, apparently people who reach a certain level in contemplative practice describe similar experiences independently of their religion.

Shinzen Young has a whole chapter dedicated to this phenomena in The Science of Enlightenment :

"When journeying from surface to Source, some people encounter celestial and empowering experiences in the sambhogakaya. It may seem to them as though they are meeting spirits beings or angels, visiting the world of the gods, or achieving psychic and healing powers. It may seem that they can remember former lives, or that they can travel outside of the body.

Whether such powers actually exist in the objective world, I don't know, although in general I tend to be rather skeptical. But one thing is certain. In this intermediate realm, some people do get very vivid subjective experience that can be extremely vivid and tangible. But sensory vividness is not the same as objective existence. For me, the really important question is how to harness these phenomena toward optimal growth."


He also explains how these visions manifested to him, and how he was surprised by their "realness".

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Re: Do we see reality?

Postby Al Schneider » October 16th, 2021, 3:20 pm

A very old seeker once said:

You are what you observe. -- Al Schneider
The single absolute truth is that we don't know.

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Brad Jeffers
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Re: Do we see reality?

Postby Brad Jeffers » October 16th, 2021, 4:31 pm

Tom Frame wrote:Brad,Your pithy protest suggests that your definition of a hallucination is contrary to the consensus of the medical, psychiatric and psychotherapy communities. Please share your unique definition of the term.

my unique defination

Jonathan Townsend
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Can we see what others claim to imagine?

Postby Jonathan Townsend » October 16th, 2021, 6:47 pm

Still personal/subjective perception.
Kray kray is what they say. But KR-3 gets others involved.
Or so the story (Flow My Tears the Policemen Says) goes.

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AJM
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Re: Do we see reality?

Postby AJM » October 17th, 2021, 4:06 am

“Guess I picked the wrong week to give up sniffing glue.”

Edward Pungot
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Re: Do we see reality?

Postby Edward Pungot » October 17th, 2021, 8:49 am

Tom,
Thanks for your tutorial post.
I am starting to re-read the Hallucinations book and was surprised to learn that hallucinations are a bottom-up process. I am referring to a statement made in the chapter: The Prisoner's Cinema: Sensory Deprivation (Sacks 41).

"This made it clear that, at a physiological level, visual imagery differs radically from visual hallucination. Unlike the top-down process of voluntary visual imagery, hallucination is the result of a direct, bottom-up activation of regions in the ventral visual pathway,  regions rendered hyperexcitable by lack of normal sensory input."

Is this just a specific instance of sensory deprivation or is this a general statement of hallucinations as a whole?

I thought bottom-up processing meant data that was coming in from the outside and top-down processing meaning data that was supplied by long-term memory.

Is this just another instance of the brain tricking itself again? Or do I need to re-read my Intro. to Cognitive Sciences textbook again as well?

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Re: Do we see reality?

Postby Edward Pungot » October 17th, 2021, 10:29 am

Enee,
There are a lot of creative people who turn to meditative practice. Two come to mind: The Beatles and David Lynch. The Beatles experimented with drugs and Lynch apparently stayed away from the stuff (although he is sort of a nicotine chain-smoker). In either case, they both advocate meditation to getting to that special state of mind.

I've read Lynch's book on meditation which is quite enlightening. I believe the book is based on the link below (although I haven't viewed this yet I do plan to get to it eventually).

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BH4qD5Fzyjk

Also, there are appear to be black-belt grand masters in this department. You can find them in the geriatrics community and the psych-ward.

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Re: Do we see reality?

Postby MagicbyAlfred » October 17th, 2021, 11:08 am

I have a stuffed rabbit. He's my friend, and I talk to him.

Saves me a fortune on the cost of counseling (and drugs).

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Re: Do we see reality?

Postby Al Schneider » October 17th, 2021, 11:28 am

I am seeing three issues on the table.
First two visual imagery and visual hallucination.
I don't know what to call the third.
These are mechanisms we use in our daily life.
Would you call them hallucinations?
You know the reality of something before you.
Yet the mind alters it before you process it.
The blind spot in the eye is just an example.
The mind replaces the blind spot with whatever is nearby.
If the area nearby is white, the spot is white.
If black, its black
If red, its red
Slanting diagonal lines, slanting diagonal lines
Checkerboard, checkerboard
And what about triggering scripts?
People absolutely see a coin in my hand when there is none.
One guy saw heads and the other saw tails.
Its kinda like a fish, "Water? What's water?"
And when a fish bumps into an ice cube and it melts, its magic.
And you have no idea how this describes the problems with quantum mechanics.
There, we are like the fish.
The single absolute truth is that we don't know.

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Re: Do we see reality?

Postby JHostler » October 17th, 2021, 11:46 am

Naive Realism <===========================> Solipsism

Curious where the scientific method might fall on this continuum. But does it really matter? :)

We live in a world with pain, fear, etc. and generally try to avoid these things (and maximize their opposites) by agreeing on a fact-based reality. At least until the last few years, apparently.
"The gnomes' ambition is handicapped by laziness." Adapted from Charles Bukowski, and clearly evident at http://www.gnominal.com

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Re: Do we see reality?

Postby Al Schneider » October 17th, 2021, 12:15 pm

i have traveled far and wide.
listened to the wise and unwise.
looked at religions and philosophies.
even listened to Ted talks.
the best that i can come up with is that we wake up in the mourning and take a wiz.
The single absolute truth is that we don't know.

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Re: Do we see reality?

Postby Edward Pungot » October 17th, 2021, 6:31 pm

Is the brain a quantum computer Mr. Schneider?
Or rather, is quantum cognition possible to describe human memory while still retaining classical features? There seems to be a lot going on in the brain it's amazing the communication lines manage all this input and output (not to mention important stuff like metabolism, infection control, and general housekeeping and life support).

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Re: Do we see reality?

Postby Al Schneider » October 17th, 2021, 11:17 pm

There are two paths you can take here.
1
One is to buy into the traditional concept of quantum physics.
It means that human observation can affect the behavior of matter.
If you accept that, it means that every time an electron approaches two slits a new universe is created.
2
Another is to take a path the physics community does not know what QM is yet.
True, they have made many observations that describe it.
But they are based on math.
And the predictions made are mathematical.

The word quantum is misused and totally blown out of promotion.
A quantum is the smallest thing that can exist.
We won’t talk about it being energy or matter.
Essentially, they are interchangeable anyway (see Einstein’s law).
If something gets smaller than a quantum it doesn’t exist.

So, to answer this question, the answer is no.

I do have a degree in physics and have studied the subject since I was 11.
My degree included a study of QM.
I have written papers on the subject and submitted them to FQXI.

And note, if you track the community you will see that not much has been advanced in the last 50 years.

To me, the other part of your question lies outside the realm of physics.
The single absolute truth is that we don't know.

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Re: Do we see reality?

Postby Enee_T » October 18th, 2021, 5:20 am

Edward Pungot wrote:Enee,
There are a lot of creative people who turn to meditative practice. Two come to mind: The Beatles and David Lynch. The Beatles experimented with drugs and Lynch apparently stayed away from the stuff (although he is sort of a nicotine chain-smoker). In either case, they both advocate meditation to getting to that special state of mind.

I've read Lynch's book on meditation which is quite enlightening. I believe the book is based on the link below (although I haven't viewed this yet I do plan to get to it eventually).

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BH4qD5Fzyjk

Also, there are appear to be black-belt grand masters in this department. You can find them in the geriatrics community and the psych-ward.


Thank you for the recommendation, I've been meaning to read his book for quite some time but had never taken the time to buy it.

As for the psych-ward, it seems to me that there is indeed a very fine line between enlightenment and insanity. After all that's why spiritual masters exist.

Al Schneider
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Re: Do we see reality?

Postby Al Schneider » October 19th, 2021, 9:57 am

Well, its kinda like reading your own mind (or palm?).
The single absolute truth is that we don't know.

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Re: Do we see reality?

Postby Jonathan Townsend » October 21st, 2021, 9:16 am

What we see: https://michaelbach.de/ot/index.html

Whether or not what we see is reality ... ??

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katterfelt0
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Re: Do we see reality?

Postby katterfelt0 » October 21st, 2021, 6:27 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:What we see: https://michaelbach.de/ot/index.html

Whether or not what we see is reality ... ??

Jonathan, thank you for sharing that link. I think optical illusions are fascinating.
Effect and method are inextricably linked.

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Re: Do we see reality?

Postby Paco Nagata » October 27th, 2021, 5:01 pm

AJM wrote:“Guess I picked the wrong week to give up sniffing glue.”

Ha, ha, ha!
"Airplaine!"
I've watched that movie "a thousand" times and never get tired...

I think that only the people that know how to see, can see reality.

Magicians' work would be to make spectators not to know how to see.

I agree with Tom Gilbert about that maybe everyone's reality are different, but I believe that there is only one real reality which nobody can see always, just because it would be too much boring.
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Funniest moments in Airplane!

Postby Jonathan Townsend » October 27th, 2021, 7:07 pm

From the couple giving directions over the speaker at the airport to when "it" hits the fan - fun movie.

About reality; Let's skip Kant and look at "empiricism". Empiricism... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sextus_Empiricus

Some people spend a lot of time admiring the practical as poetic. As if a mirror truly revealed a left-right reversed world rather than a reflection of our shared world. At the end of the 19th century there was a bubble of science (Planck, Einstein...), art (Miro, Albers...), and mathematics (sets, non-euclidian geometry, groups...) with a shared abstract aesthetic... offering hypotheticals - some of which are possible and of them - some useful.

Anyone using "phenomenon"/"noumenon" as patter theme? :)
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Could we see reality?

Postby Jonathan Townsend » October 28th, 2021, 1:58 pm

The discussion about sense-perception and practical reality goes back a ways.
Here's some of what's recent: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/09/05/b ... certainty/

I get a feeling like trying to push two magnets together.

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Re: Do we see reality?

Postby Al Schneider » October 29th, 2021, 5:25 pm

You totally do not understand the purpose of this thread.
The single absolute truth is that we don't know.

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Richard Kaufman
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Re: Do we see reality?

Postby Richard Kaufman » October 29th, 2021, 6:27 pm

THAT is not a surprise!
Subscribe today to Genii Magazine

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Re: Do we see reality?

Postby Jonathan Townsend » October 29th, 2021, 7:48 pm

Do you have ways to make magic methods less visible?

What makes a word on the page, or cut between film shots, less important - so much less that it gets forgotten?
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: Do we see reality?

Postby Richard Kaufman » October 29th, 2021, 8:39 pm

All of Al's methods are invisible! And thus miraculous.
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Re: Could we see reality?

Postby Enee_T » November 1st, 2021, 1:22 pm

Jonathan Townsend wrote:The discussion about sense-perception and practical reality goes back a ways.
Here's some of what's recent: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/09/05/b ... certainty/

I get a feeling like trying to push two magnets together.


Surfing Uncertainty is truly a great book for anyone who's interested in the research towards bridging phenomenology-inspired ways of understanding counsciousness and modelisation. But you're right, predictive coding is fundamentally "representation-oriented", so it's hard to make it fit with the enactivist perspective. I personally think that a more fruitful area of research would be on the integration of the sensorimotor theory of perception to predictive coding: http://whatfeelingislike.net/?page_id=17

As per your remark on phenomenology, I've found that most people don't know about it but find the topic interesting. However I feel that it would be pretty easy to come up with a bad presentation involving phenomenology. I'm usually not a fan of the way scientific principles are mixed with magical effects, particularly quantum physics.

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Re: Do we see reality?

Postby Al Schneider » November 1st, 2021, 11:07 pm

You totally do not understand the purpose of this thread.
The single absolute truth is that we don't know.

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Re: Do we see reality?

Postby Jonathan Townsend » November 2nd, 2021, 7:00 am

Observation and interpretation.

What can we do to tilt those in our favor?
Mundus vult decipi -per Caleb Carr's story Killing Time

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Re: Do we see reality?

Postby Al Schneider » November 2nd, 2021, 8:45 am

You totally, totally do not understand the purpose of this thread.
The single absolute truth is that we don't know.

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Re: Do we see reality?

Postby Jack Shalom » November 2nd, 2021, 9:42 am

Okay, I will bite.

What is the purpose of this thread?

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Re: Do we see reality?

Postby Al Schneider » November 2nd, 2021, 9:59 am

The purpose was to show all of us (including me) that we shut down when we think we know something.
This thread presented the Paris thing.
We all know what it is.
That was immediately followed by text that had 12 duplicate words.
No one caught it until attention was brought to it.
It further demonstrates that some will not admit to themselves they got caught.
They will be very strong about alternate explanations to make it OK for them to be wrong.
In other words, this thread is about us not willing to see the truth.
Intelligence is directly proportional to willingness to see self wrong.
The single absolute truth is that we don't know.

Al Schneider
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Re: Do we see reality?

Postby Al Schneider » November 2nd, 2021, 10:06 am

By the way Jack, thanks for asking the question.
The single absolute truth is that we don't know.

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Re: Do we see reality?

Postby Jonathan Townsend » November 2nd, 2021, 12:17 pm

What's a script? And what's a trigger?


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