Magic Theory

[Al Schneider]

Hi
I put this post in another thread then realized the thought was inappropriate for that thread.
So I decided to start a new tread for it.
There has been some talk about false transfers and how effective they can be.
Though that spawned what I said in the other thread, the concept goes far beyond.
Here is the concept.

In my understanding of the mind, I assume it keeps video scripts in its memory bank.
Then, while observing events, a trigger causes one of these scripts to play in the person's head.
That is, instead of analyzing all the person is observing, a tiny picture in the observation triggers a script.
Then, playing a script enables the person to respond faster.
You know, like when a tiger pounces on you from behind.
I have a strong feeling that the way I transfer a coin is a trigger that plays a script of a coin falling into the hand.
So, in fact, the observer will see a real coin (in their head).
Note, there was a real coin when the script was created.

Interestingly, scripts vary from person to person.

And some moves do not have scripts.

In this theory something like retention vanishes do not have scripts.
As retention vanishes are unusual, people tend not to have scripts for them.
So, people can then analyze the move, and can challenge it.
Mental scripts are not challenged.
They can be rescinded but initially they are accepted.

Also, some triggers indicate something wrong.
An assumption is that some motions trigger a suspicion rather than going unnoticed.

Anyway, it is food for thought.
I have more thoughts on this but I am curious what you think..

[Al Schneider]

Here is a sample of what I am thinking:

https://www.worldmagiccenter.com/Secret ... oMoROV.mp4

My theory is that the fingers closing under the transmitting hand triggers a script where the observer accepts without question a coin is in the hand. This video was made while studying the subject. I am moving very slowly to study the dynamics. It was not made for publication.

[Joe Mckay]

All false transfers are inherently flawed. Transferring an object from one hand to another is not an action that ever takes place in the real world.

Except in a magic trick.

Michael Close was the first person to point this out.

That is an interesting point worth mulling over.

Luckily I don't do coin tricks - so it not my problem to worry about.

[Al Schneider]

I appreciate your response.
Can I assume you do card tricks?

[Al Schneider]

Oh, I ran into Michael Close at some convention once.
He said, "You're that guy that started that awful Matrix thing."

[Joe Mckay]

I do a mix of card magic and mentalism.

I have invented a new style of magic that I call meta-magic. So the point of my magic is not the tricks, but using the tricks to communicate interesting ideas.

I am a big fan of your thinking. So there was no shade intended in my glib response.

[MagicbyAlfred]

First, I want to say that IMHO, that was a very unique, clean and deceptive vanish Al showed on the video. Thanks for sharing it, and I agree what sells it is the fingers visibly closing, as well as the smoothness and invisibility of the steal. I think that's why vanishes where the coin is visibly placed in the hand (and where there can be absolutely no question that it actually is) and they can literally see the fingers slowly close over the coin, and the vanish is subsequently accomplished with a steal, are the strongest coin vanishes. That is, provided there is good timing, misdirection and a justification for the movements of the other hand at the time of the steal. The comments regarding the scripts are very thought-provoking.

Second, I do believe, however, that a retention vanish and a number of others (e.g. Goshman's tossing-motion classic palm vanish) when done well, can be exceedingly deceptive and magical, notwithstanding the absence of a script in the spectator's memory banks. That is to say, I believe that even a new script that is being "written" on the spectator's brain/perceptiion center in real time, i.e., one without precedent, can be super-convincing and arouse virtually no suspicion -- again, if done well.

Third, I do not believe the generality that "all false transfers are inherently flawed." It's not necessarily true that transferring an object from one hand to another is not an action that ever takes place in the real world except in a magic trick. For example, if someone has something in one hand, and needs to free up that particular hand, the object may well be transferred from one hand to another. But even assuming, that an action or sequence of actions done in the context of a magic trick is not one that takes place in the real world, that does not mean the effect produced by the action(s) cannot be very very magical. There are thousands of actions in magic that one never sees in the real world - such as waving a hand over a card, or rubbing it, or snapping it, in order to change one card to another, or coins being placed underneath playing cards, the cards subsequently being picked up to reveal that that the coins thereunder translocated to underneath another card (as in Al's brilliant brainchild). There is nothing inherently flawed in actions that produce jaw-dropping reactions. Some of the best reactions I've gotten in performing were with a one-coin routine using a silver dollar, involving actions (yes, including retention vanish) and reproductions, none of which is seen in the "real world." The appreciation of aesthetics is an important part of the human brain too, and I have found that people appreciate good sleight of hand with coins, like they might appreciate a good figure skating routine.

[Jackpot]

Transferring an object from one hand to another happens all the time. When someone needs to make use of his dominant hand and it is already occupied holding something, he will transfer an object from one hand to another. When someone needs to separate one object from another, he will transfer an object from one hand to another. When someone needs to reach in a pocket to find something, he will transfer an object from one hand to another in order to fit his hand in his pocket....

While people in the real world transfer objects from one hand to another quite frequently, only magicians transfer objects for no apparent reason. Not all false transfers are inherently flawed, but all improperly motivated false transfers are. Even when inherently flawed a false transfer can still be magical. A willing suspension of disbelief seems to exist for false transfers among both magicians and audiences.

[Tarotist]

I was reading in Joshua Jay's new book today that it is important to use one's feet as well as one's hands for false transfers. I think I have a vague recollection of Tamariz writing the same thing once. Perhaps not since Tamariz seems to be sitting down every time I see him work so his feet probably have nothing to do with the matter.

Anyway, I have been doing false transfers for well over 60 years and since not a single book explained the feet theory I have allowed my feet to go wherever the hell they want. My feet have never objected to the matter and it seems to have escaped the attention of my audiences too since I cannot remember even a single time after thousand upon thousands of performances that anyone has ever caught me out. Come to think of it I am doing a false transfer at 55 seconds in during this video. However, you will note that my feet are under the table so I have no bloody idea where they are and neither do I bloody care. I can only deduce this theory is therefore a load of tosh and the moral of the tale is not believe all the crap that you read.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJEM-mlDM80

[Al Schneider]

MagicbyAlfred
I have had a somewhat lengthy conversation with Goshman about his vanish motion.
He uses the same triggers I propose.
However, he holds his hands horizontally and moves faster.
He was in agreement that we are both using the same technology.
I might mention that the use of triggers does not require an identical motion each time used.

About the foot thing.
I suspect the meaning is that every part of your being is a coin being transferred.
I refer to this as intention of reality.
It is not a matter of believing nor pretending.
Believing is a statement that you do not believe.
It is somewhat like saying, don't think the word ambulance.
I suspect that such a move requires every part of your existence is like a real coin transfer.
Except for the coin.
I would like to hear from one of these masters to see f I am right.
And please do not tell me it is acting.

[Tarotist]

I actually do a false transfer with a playing card. You can see it at 30 seconds in. I believe it is known as the Buckley vanish. I can assure you all that my feet are not involved in the matter. ( I believe in magic the tongue is more important than the feet)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKkcr5-Qrck

[Al Schneider]

Clearly this thread is dead.

[Tarotist]

I think that after you have done a specific coin transfer hundreds of times it becomes as natural as breathing and you don't have to think about it. No need for a mental script and in fact it can be detrimental as you are trying to concentrate on the PEOPLE! You can't allow yourself to be distracted by other things since the mind cannot think of two things at once. You can't concentrate on the people at the same time as you are concentrating on some kind of script in your head. To me the people are the important thing in magic. You have to know how THEIR minds work rather than your own!

[Dave Le Fevre]

I think that after you have done a specific coin transfer hundreds of times it becomes as natural as breathing and you don't have to think about it. No need for a mental script ...

Perhaps I've misunderstood Mr Schneider's description of the mental script. I thought it was a script that was played in the mind of the spectator, not in the mind of the performer.

Re the comments about feet, I've always thought that there's at least one coin sleight which is more deceptive when the performer is standing, simply because the whole body moves (albeit slightly). But I must say that I'd never considered the feet. I must think about that.

[Tarotist]

I think that after you have done a specific coin transfer hundreds of times it becomes as natural as breathing and you don't have to think about it. No need for a mental script ...

Perhaps I've misunderstood Mr Schneider's description of the mental script. I thought it was a script that was played in the mind of the spectator, not in the mind of the performer.

Re the comments about feet, I've always thought that there's at least one coin sleight which is more deceptive when the performer is standing, simply because the whole body moves (albeit slightly). But I must say that I'd never considered the feet. I must think about that.

Maybe I misunderstood him. If so I apologise. I will have to read it again. As for the feet I expect my feet are psychic and somehow know automatically which position to take when performing a false transfer so I won't worry them too much about it.

[Richard Kaufman]

Bob Read always said, "Magic begins with the feet." He would talk about this quite a bit at his lectures and used his bottle production to demonstrate.

[PressureFan]

Ken Brooke said you Classic Force with your feet.

[Dave Le Fevre]

Bob Read always said, "Magic begins with the feet."

I'm currently recovering from a fractured femur. And practicing some coin sleights.

Does this mean that my efforts are wasted?

[MagicbyAlfred]

Ken Brooke said you Classic Force with your feet.

Yes, but I always get such strange looks when I lay on my back and lift my legs/feet in the air to offer them a so-called "free choice."

[Tarotist]

I know that T.Nelson Downs said that you could classic force a card behind your back "if your feet were big enough". I think he was referring to the fact that they had to avoid his feet when he backed into them. However, he wasn't referring to doing it that way when forcing from the front.

Chan Canasta would classic force all the time but never once did I see him use his feet. Eddie Tullock wrote pages and pages on the classic force but never once mentioned his feet. I personally have used the classic force thousands of times over 60 years and up to now have never been aware of what the hell my feet had to do with it. I did see Ken Brooke classic force a card but I have no idea whether he used his feet or not. I do know, however, that he wrote up several pages in his own words on how to do the classic force but didn't mention his feet even once.

I must ask Paul Pacific about this. He is pretty skilled at sleight of hand and is quite obsessed with his own feet. He has even done tricks with them. I will have to check with him on this matter. In my Annotated Royal Road to Card Magic there is a rather good trick called Good Luck Card. Here is my annotation to said miracle:
.......................................................................................................................................................................................................
Famed Canadian magician and mentalist Paul Pacific who is known as “the barefoot prophet” has a very strange climax to this trick. I do not recommend it to normal human beings but if you are the sort who walks around barefoot all the time like Paul does you may be attracted to his way of doing it.
Everything is exactly as described above. However, when Paul comes to the point where the card is palmed he does not bring his chair in a trifle and load the card underneath himself. While the spectator is looking through his 13 cards he takes the opportunity to simply load the card between two of his toes, usually his big toe and the one next to it. He then lifts up his foot above table view showing the selected card securely held. In his later years he may find it more difficult to find the strength to lift his foot above table level but hopefully by that time he will have found it more convenient to wear shoes just like everyone else.
........................................................................................................................................................................................................
Anyway, see his footwork for yourself:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZaGkNbzdYo

[Tom Gilbert]

Alfred, that's called the "dead ant force."

[MagicbyAlfred]

Alfred, that's called the "dead ant force."